Replacing aircraft battery as a private pilot

Alexb2000 said:
My Texas FBO along with several others I've visited don't allow their employees to do jump starts anymore for insurance reasons. This includes turbines! So they have a cart and they can plug you in, but they can't let you start the aircraft and pull the plug. I had to have the line guys hold the brakes while I got out and disconnected the cart and buttoned it up with the motor running.

Regulations and now insurance requirements.... sheesh.
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If it was my personal FBO, and you were there wanting to jump ANY plane, this would be my rule too. There's no reason I or my insurer should have to cover the potential accidents by your dead battery.

Regulation, I don't think so, but insurance(which I'm required to carry as a business on a muni property) yep.

Sorry.
 
docmirror said:
If it was my personal FBO, and you were there wanting to jump ANY plane, this would be my rule too. There's no reason I or my insurer should have to cover the potential accidents by your dead battery.

Regulation, I don't think so, but insurance(which I'm required to carry as a business on a muni property) yep.

Sorry.
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Worked out fine for me, but if an FBO won't put a cart on a turbine for startup then they'll soon have problems meeting their flowage commitments IMO.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Worked out fine for me, but if an FBO won't put a cart on a turbine for startup then they'll soon have problems meeting their flowage commitments IMO.
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I will gladly connect my cart to your turbine plane(for a fee), as you stated before. I just won't let my employee disconnect it once you start engine(s). I wouldn't even let the line boy hold the brakes while you do the disconnect.
That's on you.

The alternatives are: 1. Remove the batt, put it on the charger, install the batt, and you can start and fly away. 2. Charge in place with no engine start, and after it's charged you can start and fly away. 3. Buy a battery from me at my 'you are now stranded retail price'. 4. You can drag your no start plane off the leasehold and onto the muni ramp and do anything you want, like hand prop it.

Sorry.
 
Tell me again how helping someone jumpstart holds liability? For all we know the guy wants to drive it down the ramp or to a hangar. How often does it get so cold that the aircraft needs an assisted start via external power?

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.​


(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.​


(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.​

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.


(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.​


(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.​

Next thing you are going to say is you don't wash airplanes without OEM approved soap because of corrosion liabilities, or because you don't know the contents of your tap water or if they are detrimental to aluminim or composite structures.​
 
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bnt83 said:
Tell me again how helping someone jumpstart holds liability? [/LEFT]
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I think you might be misconstruing my objection to assisted jump starts and liability. My FBO line boy has no affect on any FAR compliance. However, if my line boy, who is employed by my FBO, and is on my insurance policy is involved in an accident while jump starting a plane, he or his heirs will sue me, my FBO company, the muni, the plane owner, the maker of the battery, the plane, and the jump cart, and the airport dog as well.
 
docmirror said:
I think you might be misconstruing my objection to assisted jump starts and liability. My FBO line boy has no affect on any FAR compliance. However, if my line boy, who is employed by my FBO, and is on my insurance policy is involved in an accident while jump starting a plane, he or his heirs will sue me, my FBO company, the muni, the plane owner, the maker of the battery, the plane, and the jump cart, and the airport dog as well.
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OOh you mean your employee get hurt? fair enough.
 
docmirror said:
I will gladly connect my cart to your turbine plane(for a fee), as you stated before. I just won't let my employee disconnect it once you start engine(s). I wouldn't even let the line boy hold the brakes while you do the disconnect.
That's on you.

The alternatives are: 1. Remove the batt, put it on the charger, install the batt, and you can start and fly away. 2. Charge in place with no engine start, and after it's charged you can start and fly away. 3. Buy a battery from me at my 'you are now stranded retail price'. 4. You can drag your no start plane off the leasehold and onto the muni ramp and do anything you want, like hand prop it.

Sorry.
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What FBO do you run?

I guess you've never needed some help from an FBO that you just patronized with a large fuel purchase. Sounds like a bad customer service attitude to me.
 
Bringing the discussion back to topic slightly one more question comes to mind. I also purchased a BatteryMINDer but I'm on a tiedown. If I were to remove my battery and take it home for a few days to charge & be "MINDed" and then reinstall it does this require a logbook entry? If so, I would presumably write "Removed aircraft battery, serviced and charged. Reinstalled battery, ops check OK" with the usual date, hours, name, cert#, signature.
 
spinfire said:
Bringing the discussion back to topic slightly one more question comes to mind. I also purchased a BatteryMINDer but I'm on a tiedown. If I were to remove my battery and take it home for a few days to charge & be "MINDed" and then reinstall it does this require a logbook entry? If so, I would presumably write "Removed aircraft battery, serviced and charged. Reinstalled battery, ops check OK" with the usual date, hours, name, cert#, signature.
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This is a 'depends' kind of answer, but in most cases yes. The battery in many/most modern aircraft is a required item for operation. Once you take it out, the plane is no longer airworthy, and you've changed it's status. Requires a logbook entry to return it to airworthy condition.

As an aside, in addition to the logbook, I recall the FAA recommends a placard placed in a conspicuous place indicating that the plane cannot be flown, even though it might be obvious that nothing happened when the master was switched on. Given that most planes have mags, it could still be started without the battery, and an attempt could be made to fly - batteryless.
 
spinfire said:
Bringing the discussion back to topic slightly one more question comes to mind. I also purchased a BatteryMINDer but I'm on a tiedown. If I were to remove my battery and take it home for a few days to charge & be "MINDed" and then reinstall it does this require a logbook entry? If so, I would presumably write "Removed aircraft battery, serviced and charged. Reinstalled battery, ops check OK" with the usual date, hours, name, cert#, signature.
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You really want to R&R it that often? That Cessna battery box is horrible cheap junk. A good IA should be servicing the battery once a year at annual. Maybe a water level check (if applicable) at the 6 month mark wouldn't hurt but to remove it and reinstall more often seems excessive. Unless your electrical system has an issue or the battery is dirty it won't self discharge to the point of harm in a month or two.


The battery doesn't cook under the cowl in your C177RG so electrolyte levels (again if applicable) should remain constant assuming the charging system is operating correctly.
 
I would put the RG35 Concorde in there and forget about till annuals.
 
Alexb2000 said:
What FBO do you run?

I guess you've never needed some help from an FBO that you just patronized with a large fuel purchase. Sounds like a bad customer service attitude to me.
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Alex you're confusing the very good procedure of using a cart for a start on a turbine a/c with a well charged battery, vs. starting one with a battery that does not meet spec...
 
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bnt83 said:
FAR 43.9 is maintence records and what entries should contain.
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§43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with Part 91, Part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.


Now lets let this thread go away
 
docmirror said:
I will gladly connect my cart to your turbine plane(for a fee), as you stated before. I just won't let my employee disconnect it once you start engine(s). I wouldn't even let the line boy hold the brakes while you do the disconnect.
That's on you.
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That will hurt your turbine business. On the Commander with the left engine conveniently located right next to the door, you're not going to see anyone walking out. First item on the engine start checklist is "Door: Locked."

It is very common practice to use GPUs on various turbine aircraft, and the line crew is expected to disconnect the cart.
 
bbchien said:
Alex you're confusing the very good procedure of using a cart for a start on a turbine a/c with a well charged battery, vs. starting one with a battery that does not meet spec...
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I was thinking of all the cold weather ops I see. The batteries better be tip top after a night in sub-zero temps. I also just don't see using the GPU as a big deal. The plug-ins are way out of the way of the prop(s), hook em up, let them fire up (without worrying about a hung/hot start), and go. Alternately, the pilot has to start, leave the cockpit, unhook and unchock, and return to the cockpit. Leaves a running, unchocked, unattended turbine sitting on the ramp for a time.

Just doesn't make any safety sense to me, but who knows.:dunno:
 
I think its sad. I Jump started stuff in school, a Queen air coverted to PT-6's, a 421 and a Barron but an FBO won't? I guess you'll never be bidding on government fuel contracts requiring such ground support via external power or huffers. Then there are occassionaly aircraft that stop for hot re-fueling.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I was thinking of all the cold weather ops I see. The batteries better be tip top after a night in sub-zero temps. I also just don't see using the GPU as a big deal. The plug-ins are way out of the way of the prop(s), hook em up, let them fire up (without worrying about a hung/hot start), and go. Alternately, the pilot has to start, leave the cockpit, unhook and unchock, and return to the cockpit. Leaves a running, unchocked, unattended turbine sitting on the ramp for a time.

Just doesn't make any safety sense to me, but who knows.:dunno:
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There are many aircraft that were very poorly designed in this aspect. The Cessna 177 & RG series (and many others), is one of them. The battery is in the tailcone and yet every external power plug I've on them seen is in the firewall. :rolleyes2:
 
bnt83 said:
There are many aircraft that were very poorly designed in this aspect. The Cessna 177 & RG series (and many others), is one of them. The battery is in the tailcone and yet every external power plug I've on them seen is in the firewall. :rolleyes2:
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The external power port on my '77 177RG is in the tail, just behind the baggage door.
 
Man, what a bunch of whiny, bitchy, plane drivers.

Service your batts, or pay me and I'll be happy to replace them, or charge them. I gave four options from free, to full service, and still whining. The FBO has to pay ins premiums. Part of those premiums for liability pay for ramp accidents. Lawyers around the country have made it nearly impossible to do anything more than is spelled out in the FAA regs.

I could go digging for case, after case, after case of someone getting sued when there's an accident with the plane. You all know it happens, and when the FBO wants to limit their lawsuit liability, now the FBO is the bad guy.

I'm outta here.
 
Dan, the Concorde is a better battery and in my opinion, worth the extra cost. It's sealed so you don't have to worry about acid corrosion, and they last a lot longer than the "G" brand. When you purchase it, it'll come with an STC and the instructions will tell you how to modify the battery lid to accommodate the taller battery. A battery replacement is authorized with a simple remove and replace entry in the log book (with times, dates, serial and part numbers, etc) by you alone, but modifying the lid takes an A&P signoff.

Also,

1. Whatever you get, consider keeping it on a trickle charger when you're not flying it. Batteries, if kept charged, will last almost indefinitely.

2. If not a member, consider the Cardinal Flyers Online. Lots of information about batteries and everything else on their site.
 
docmirror said:
Man, what a bunch of whiny, bitchy, plane drivers.

Service your batts, or pay me and I'll be happy to replace them, or charge them. I gave four options from free, to full service, and still whining. The FBO has to pay ins premiums. Part of those premiums for liability pay for ramp accidents. Lawyers around the country have made it nearly impossible to do anything more than is spelled out in the FAA regs.

I could go digging for case, after case, after case of someone getting sued when there's an accident with the plane. You all know it happens, and when the FBO wants to limit their lawsuit liability, now the FBO is the bad guy.

I'm outta here.
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What surprised me the other day was seeing a line guy hand prop an RV that had a dead battery, that was no no one, no no two was he was untrained in the how
 
Can't ya just push start 'em? :ihih:
 
This story has a happy ending and I didn't even need to buy a new battery. I pulled the battery out (IMHO even easier than pulling a car battery in the 177RG) and brought it home to place on the battery minder. The battery was basically completely dead and it took many hours for the battery minder to go into float mode. I also added a small amount of distilled water. Once the battery minder went into float/maintenance mode it sat for most of the week before I brought the battery back to the airport the following weekend and reinstalled it with lots of nice fresh DC4 on the terminals and made a logbook entry indicating I'd removed, serviced, charge, and reinstalled the battery.

Since than my starts have been more rapid than they've been since the beginning of this winter. Between non-aviation life and the weather this winter a lot of my flying has been limited to "Oh, well, ceilings are 2000 feet, I'll tool around the pattern I guess...". I suspect the reality is my battery was not getting a net charge on any of these 0.6-0.8 hour flights of laps around the pattern particularly with the landing light on continuously and the gear cycled twice per trip. Especially since I'd go two weeks of below freezing temperatures between each sad and short flight! I've finally had the chance to make some longer trips since the battery was R&R'd and she has been starting great every time.

Thanks for all of the assistance. I'm glad I didn't buy the battery! If you think you have a dead battery and it is only a few years old definitely try a conditioning recharge first.
 
My old mechanic divided her customers into two groups: those who would turn a wrench on their planes and those who were "just pilots." We were in the middle of our annual and were sitting in the back of the shop eating pizza for lunch. A customer came in and said he thought he had a problem with his battery. She told him to bring it in and she'd bench test it. He gave her a blank look. "Oh, I forgot...you're just a pilot. Ron, go help him get his battery."
 
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