Renting Airplanes

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
Hello, I recently earned my Private Pilot Certificate and am really excited to start the process of flying more. I have been renting airplanes from my local FBO, and will likely continue to do so as I can't justify the expense of buying an airplane. I may look into joining a flying club.

I am a little curious about the airplane rental industry. It seems that there is quite a bit of room for improvement here. Let me explain by comparing it to the process of renting a car. I have to travel for work everyone once in a while. My employer contracts with Hertz for all our car rentals. When I arrive at my destination and show up at the Hertz rental car center, I have a text message from Hertz giving me the stall and location of the car I am renting. I walk to the car, get in, start it up and drive through a security gate. I show my driver's license to guard at the gate who also looks at the contract that was in the car when I got there, then I am off. It is quick, easy and painless. It requires minimal human interaction and is very efficient.

Now, I know that flying an airplane is not the same as driving a car. But I can't help but wonder why the process of renting the airplane can't be easier. Perhaps I need to try out different FBO's. I have only rented from the flight school where I completed my flight training. This FBO is pretty small. The owner runs everything, and to be candid, he really needs some help, but he is reluctant to hire anyone.

Do I need to try different FBO's out? Is the market for airplane rental just too small to support this type of inovation? What does everyone else think?
 
Market is too small to set up a nationwide organization such as Hertz, Avis, Dollar and the others.

Plus
  • there would be too much fragmentation and challenges to get the individual/Independant FBO's to participate
  • Cost of maintaining the fleet is a big numbe
  • Cost of insuring the fleet (hull) and protecting the lessor (liability) is huge
  • Cost of acquiring aircraft is mega huge
  • Not enough pilots out there to make this a profitable enterprise.

OpenAirplane is trying to bridge this gap, but their success has been small so far.
 
I think OpenAirplane would do a whole lot better if their rental prices weren't ridiculously high. 152 is the model number, not the price.
 
azpilot said:
This FBO is pretty small. The owner runs everything, and to be candid, he really needs some help, but he is reluctant to hire anyone.
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Hertz and Enterprise are multimillion companies with lots of profit. Local FBO makes diddly renting a plane. Many places use leasebacks to offset costs.
 
Joining a co-ownership arrangement (such as a club) is one of the better ideas when starting out. You often have access to a better aircraft than you can afford individually. And when it comes time to write the expensive checks to take care of the aircraft, that is split amongst the members.

I'm a good example. www.MetroFlyersClub.com has 16 members and 2 nice aircraft (Bonanza V35 and Cessna 182 Skylane). Since I have joined in 2010, we have purchased/installed an engine for each aircraft, upgraded the panel on the Bo, and underwent a few other pricey activities. My financial responsibility for all of this was just my monthly dues and initial equity buy-in. It is quite a bit of bang for my aviation buck.


An added benefit to a club is you get a chance to fly and learn more about aircraft care and feeding before you commit a large pile of cash to sole ownership.
 
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There are already several national rental options coming to bear in the market. The most popular and well executed company is OpenAirplane.

They have a large and growing network of 64 cities nationwide in almost all 50 states.
 
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As MAKG mentioned, OpenAirplane is an attempt to make airplane rental more seamless. The idea is that once you know how to fly a certain model or series of models of airplane should shouldn't necessarily need to be checked out by every single rental outfit.

There is something to be said for training on local idiosyncrasies, and perhaps the lack of that drives their insurance rates up, and their prices with it. Maybe they just add too much overhead to the price. Dunno.

But that's the idea.
 
Hey Azpilot the problem with Jumping from FBO to FBO is you have to be CFI checks out at each of the FBOs to fly their airplanes. Maybe you and I should partner in a 172 or better yet a 182. :)
 
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you didn't really say what the issue is you're having....I rent from 3 different places and honestly the 'process' couldn't be any easier....my biggest roadblock is availability. otherwise, I look on the schedule, book the plane, and fly. not much else to it, mx and wx related issues aside.
 
A semi-local FBO is set up on Open Airplane. Their normal rental rates are only $10/hour less than what is listed on Open Airplane's website, which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, considering that Open Airplane likely gets that extra $10.

That said, the FBO I'm referring to has some of the highest rental rates in the area before the extra $10 is applied so the only reason i'd go there is if I just wanted to fly for an hour or two while I was passing through town, was already checked out for Open Airplane, and didn't want to deal with having an instructor checking me out.
 
evapilotaz said:
Maybe you and I should partner in a 172 or better yet a 182. :)
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For the reasonable increase in dollars, the 182 is the better choice if the two of you can make it happen.
 
Thing I noticed about Open Airplane is the only participating FBOs are the most expensive, and the local participant's planes aren't very nice and have availability issues.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think OpenAirplane would do a whole lot better if their rental prices weren't ridiculously high. 152 is the model number, not the price.
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Yeah, the price that is charged when you rent through them is higher than when you rent directly from the same FBO. It seems to be $10 - 20 difference at most locations. Of course, that extra amount is paying for the convenience of not needing a local checkout at that FBO. So basically you are saving .5 to 1.0 hours of plane and CFI charges at each location once you are checked out on a type at the first location. If you fly commercial or drive to other cities frequently and want to take up a 172 or other popular airplane while you are there for just a couple of hours, it does come out far cheaper to use OpenAirplane than to do a separate checkout at each location. It just depends on how often you think you would use their services whether you think it is a good idea at a fair price or not.

I have yet to use them but I can see myself doing so.
 
Henning said:
Thing I noticed about Open Airplane is the only participating FBOs are the most expensive, and the local participant's planes aren't very nice and have availability issues.
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To make economic advantage of an aircraft in a rental situation it has to fly regularly. The trainers can typically be priced pretty nice but the XC birds are costly as they won't book into 2 hour blocks. Having it sit around waiting for you to come to town isn't very good utilization.

Actually, back in the sixties or so Hertz was planning an airplane rental operation, you can dig up ads for it in old flying magazines. Never came to fruition.
 
mondtster said:
A semi-local FBO is set up on Open Airplane. Their normal rental rates are only $10/hour less than what is listed on Open Airplane's website, which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, considering that Open Airplane likely gets that extra $10.

That said, the FBO I'm referring to has some of the highest rental rates in the area before the extra $10 is applied so the only reason i'd go there is if I just wanted to fly for an hour or two while I was passing through town, was already checked out for Open Airplane, and didn't want to deal with having an instructor checking me out.
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:yes:
And that is their appeal. It all depends on how often you would be wanting to rent at other locations besides your home base. Of course, if you frequently travel to the same location and frequently fly while you are there, you are probably better off just doing a local checkout and saving the extra hourly rate. As with anything, there are personal variables.
 
If I had to travel across the country to a remote location, doing it 100% commercial is often very slow. If I could fly airline into a Class B or C (maybe D) - and then pick up the rental and fly direct destination that could save a lot of time. In theory.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah, the price that is charged when you rent through them is higher than when you rent directly from the same FBO. It seems to be $10 - 20 difference at most locations. Of course, that extra amount is paying for the convenience of not needing a local checkout at that FBO. So basically you are saving .5 to 1.0 hours of plane and CFI charges at each location once you are checked out on a type at the first location. If you fly commercial or drive to other cities frequently and want to take up a 172 or other popular airplane while you are there for just a couple of hours, it does come out far cheaper to use OpenAirplane than to do a separate checkout at each location. It just depends on how often you think you would use their services whether you think it is a good idea at a fair price or not.

I have yet to use them but I can see myself doing so.
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It looks like a lot more than $10-$20.

Looking around California, OpenAirplane 172s are $170 or more. For a 172!

More typical 172 prices around the region are $110-$130. So, break-even with a 1/2 hour checkout is at one hour. If I'm going to bother renting an airplane, I'm going to fly for an hour. More typically, it's 2-3 times that.

Why? All the rentals are late models. Most of us who fly recreationally know that's not necessary. I never rent glass panel 172s unless the cost differential is negligible (for instance, there is one Aspen equipped 172N around Palo Alto for $130). At my regular club in San Jose, I pay $115. It works fine, and hauls more (G1000s are fat pigs).

I respect their attempt. It is sorely needed. But they need reasonable prices. There is little reasonable on that website.
 
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eman1200 said:
you didn't really say what the issue is you're having....I rent from 3 different places and honestly the 'process' couldn't be any easier....my biggest roadblock is availability. otherwise, I look on the schedule, book the plane, and fly. not much else to it, mx and wx related issues aside.
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Agree. Couldn't be easier. And all of my rental experiences have certainly been quicker and much less painful than renting a car - once an established customer of the FBO.

Wonder what the OP's beef is?
 
MAKG1 said:
It looks like a lot more than $10-$20.

Looking around California, OpenAirplane 172s are $170 or more. For a 172!

More typical 172 prices around the region are $110-$130. So, break-even with a 1/2 hour checkout is at one hour. If I'm going to bother renting an airplane, I'm going to fly for an hour. More typically, it's 2-3 times that.

Why? All the rentals are late models. Most of us who fly recreationally know that's not necessary. I never rent glass panel 172s unless the cost differential is negligible (for instance, there is one Aspen equipped 172N around Palo Alto for $130). At my regular club in San Jose, I pay $115. It works fine, and hauls more (G1000s are fat pigs).

I respect their attempt. It is sorely needed. But they need reasonable prices. There is little reasonable on that website.
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I just checked one location in CA which is Torrance where I used to live and fly. A 172S at the only OA affiliate at KTOA rents for $150 normally but $160 through OA. That is a difference of $10. Now, I do realize that there are rentals available for less and I would likely pursue one of those if flying more than a few hours even if it required a checkout. My cost difference comparison was just between the same airplane at its normal rate versus its OA rate for the purpose of illustrating what OA adds on.

Yeah, I'd love it if the cheaper airplanes were part of the OA network. An older 172 with round gauges is fine by me.
 
I'd argue they aren't just "fine." They are far preferable.

A basic panel means I can put more people, fuel, and bags in it, a rather obvious tradeoff IMO. And there are a lot of good 40 year old airplanes out there. And a lot of crappy but pretty late model 172s that can't even fit an 800 lb useful load.
 
Let's look into that car vs airplane more closely. Unless you rent cars that sell for more than $100,000 your comparison fails. These days a trainer can easily cost six figures with the accompanying insurance burden. A car rental company has a pretty good idea of what kind of driving you will be doing with the type of car you rent...I doubt that you will be doing 360s over your house in a car. The exposure to the airplane rental agency is far greater than that faced by the car rental agency.

Plus all of the things mentioned by others.

Renting an airplane will never be as easy as renting a car.

Bob Gardner
 
There are a lot of car rental companies that rent cars with a sticker price comparable to a 172. In my experience those car rental companies are a lot more expensive and require a lot more paperwork than Hertz.

If we're gonna compare apples to apples, lets not compare a $15k Nissan Versa with a $100k Cessna.

Sadly a lot of people treat them the same way. It's frustrating to show up to use a plane and find empty coffee cups in the back seat, and missing/torn up books.
 
bobmrg said:
Let's look into that car vs airplane more closely. Unless you rent cars that sell for more than $100,000 your comparison fails. These days a trainer can easily cost six figures with the accompanying insurance burden. A car rental company has a pretty good idea of what kind of driving you will be doing with the type of car you rent...I doubt that you will be doing 360s over your house in a car. The exposure to the airplane rental agency is far greater than that faced by the car rental agency.

Plus all of the things mentioned by others.

Renting an airplane will never be as easy as renting a car.

Bob Gardner
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It's actually surprising how easy it is to rent a plane.
A year ago we rented a very nice Saratoga for 3 weeks. We flew it around Europe and 10 countries. The requirements were a 45min checkride and 5 hours in a complex Piper beforehand.
My friends who were on that trip asked what sort of deposit/collateral I left and how can they just give you a plane and tell you to go fly.
I said nope, no credit card imprints, nothing, just a handshake.
 
eman1200 said:
you didn't really say what the issue is you're having....I rent from 3 different places and honestly the 'process' couldn't be any easier....my biggest roadblock is availability. otherwise, I look on the schedule, book the plane, and fly. not much else to it, mx and wx related issues aside.
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I agree with your comment. In addition to historically renting from more than one FBO at a time, I've often rented on vacations or been checked out for repeated rentals where family members live. "Same-aircraft-different-FBO" checkouts typically last about an hour, include learning local procedures, and I can't recall any that I felt were a waste of time or money.

MAKG's observation about cost vs value is spot on.
 
I can comment for the concerns of the particular FBO the OP is talking about. There has been a few occasions I had a airplane scheduled and I didn't have access to the Keys because the owner was out instruction. This caused me to wait with my passengers until his return. One time my scheduled rental was changed because someone else needed the airplane for a check ride. Oh I just remembered one occasion I had to canceled a flight because the FBO owner was on a cross country instruction flight and would be gone most of the day. I couldnt get access to the airplane keys until his return. My 12yr old was disappointed because we didn't get to fly.
 
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bobmrg said:
Let's look into that car vs airplane more closely. Unless you rent cars that sell for more than $100,000 your comparison fails. These days a trainer can easily cost six figures with the accompanying insurance burden. A car rental company has a pretty good idea of what kind of driving you will be doing with the type of car you rent...I doubt that you will be doing 360s over your house in a car. The exposure to the airplane rental agency is far greater than that faced by the car rental agency.

Plus all of the things mentioned by others.

Renting an airplane will never be as easy as renting a car.

Bob Gardner
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I can rent an Ferrari Enzo for $1500 a day. That's $62.50 an hour for a million dollar car.
 
azPilot & David, I belonged to Valley Flying Club several years ago, they have a cheaper buy in but higher monthly rates. I think they currently are located at KDVT, and have a 182, Cirrus 22, and a Turbo Saratoga. If your in Northern Az, a flying club is starting at KPRC with a 2010 Piper Sportcruiser and a 182.
Or if you are looking to buy, I have a 172/180 HP listed at KDVT, paint and interior are original but the Seller spent $55,000 on a new prop and Air Plains 180 conversion in 2006. http://www.kelmaraviation.biz/n2516y
 
AggieMike88 said:
OpenAirplane is trying to bridge this gap, but their success has been small so far.
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And a LOT of similar ventures have preceded Open Airplane and all have gone feet up.


If this model took place back in the 60's or 70's, they probably would have succeeded ---- but then, just about all airports larger than what today would be classified as Class-G had a dealer franchise in the FBO and ramps were packed with brand-spanking new aircraft for the rental and for sale --- and for a token checkout if you had model currency in your log.

Then came the 80's with the hungry and destitute lawyers, and GA hasn't been the same since ....
 
evapilotaz said:
I can comment for the concerns of the particular FBO the OP is talking about. There has been a few occasions I have a airplane scheduled and I didn't have access to the Keys because the owner was out instruction. This caused me to wait with my passengers until his return. One time my scheduled rental was changed because someone else needed the airplane for a check ride. Oh I just remembered one occasion I had to canceled a flight because the FBO owner was on a cross country instruction flight and would be gone most of the day. I couldnt get access to the airplane keys until his return. My 12yr old was disappointed because we didn't get to fly.
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I've found this to be quite common these days. Similar situations have happened to me alot.
Another reason is, "The aircraft just went into MX. Maybe it will be available later this week."
 
Dude I rent from has the keys in an outdoor lock box which his customers have the combination to. Need a plane? Just call, if it's night, just take it and fill out a slip to put in the box for him in the morning. Good guy.
 
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Henning said:
People rent them for track days. About the only cool stuff you can't rent down here is decent airplanes.:(
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I would rent it and take it out for a day/night on the town. Track day I'd be worried about buying new tires as well.
 
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