Renters Insurance?

[ebykowsky]

So, I'm entirely ready to get reamed out on this one and told I'm doing it all wrong and am lucky to not have run into trouble thus far... (or maybe you won't say that)...
Anyway, I've been flying and renting planes for the entirety of my training and post-checkride flights, and never really thought about getting insurance until now. From your perspective, is renter's insurance a near-necessity, a nice-to-have, or a don't-worry-about-it kind of thing? (no, building an RV is out of the option--even though I know they don't need insurance because they're immune from crashing ) I see AOPA has a couple of policies for the surprisingly low rates of $89 and $179 a year, but I'm not sure if that's too good to be true. What all would I need if I were to get the insurance? Most of my flying is through my flying club up north and my local 1-plane FBO down here in SC, but I've no idea what kind of insurance they have. What kind of risk exposure am I looking at without renter's insurance, and how much should I try to mitigate this risk with an insurance policy?

Some of my worries include:
Damage to the plane
Damage to others' property
Getting sued by a passenger or their relatives should I hurt them
Having to pay for something that wasn't my fault (engine-out, broken gyro, etc.)
Anything else?

Edit: Obviously I will be doing some more research on the AOPA insurance and my FBO/Flying Club insurance policies tomorrow

 

[ClimbnSink]

How much money you got? Only people in the middle need renters insurance, higher and you own something, lower and well they can't get blood from a stone. Yes they can get a judgement against future earnings, if you ain't in med school they ain't going to bother trying. Decent chance you are covered in the club plane, much less chance you are covered in a fbo rental. Ask and read the policies.

 

[ebykowsky]

How much money you got? Only people in the middle need renters insurance, higher and you own something, lower and well they can't get blood from a stone. Yes they can get a judgement against future earnings, if you ain't in med school they ain't going to bother trying. Decent chance you are covered in the club plane, much less chance you are covered in a fbo rental. Ask and read the policies.

I don't have much money at all, but my parents are definitely in the "higher" range. Being a minor (albeit not for long) and even once I turn 18 a college-age dependent, I'm afraid they'll go after my parents' assets. My mom is particularly concerned about the liability involved with passengers getting maimed or killed and having us sued. Horrible thoughts, but it happens.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Easy, have your mom pick up the tab. Remind her that kids are expensive.

I don't have much money at all, but my parents are definitely in the "higher" range. Being a minor (albeit not for long) and even once I turn 18 a college-age dependent, I'm afraid they'll go after my parents' assets. My mom is particularly concerned about the liability involved with passengers getting maimed or killed and having us sued. Horrible thoughts, but it happens.

 

[ebykowsky]

Easy, have your mom pick up the tab. Remind her that kids are expensive.

Thought running through mom's mind:"flying is expensive, Eric. Looks like this is just another expensive you didn't think about when starting the hobby. You should have prepared and budgeted for this."
"OK, alright mom, I'll pay the fee."
"Well, you obviously weren't prepared for this, but being prepared is part of being a pilot. Maybe you shouldn't even be flying... and come to think of it, this insurance makes me realize just how dangerous flying is! I don't want you in harms way!"
"Wait... what?!?!"
Bottom line, I will likely be the one buying. Perhaps this will end up being my birthday present if not, but it's really not that expensive through AOPA, so back to the question...

 

[John221us]

Easy, have your mom pick up the tab. Remind her that kids are expensive.

Yes, insurance is for people with something to protect and that would be your parents. Right now, any lawsuit would name your parents. I don't think that would be the case after you turn 18, but I am not a lawyer. If I were your parent, I would insist on it.

 

[ebykowsky]

So how much coverage would you guys get?

Edit: yes I realize that's a very nebulous and case-by-case question, but go ahead and generalize as much as possible.

 

[John221us]

So how much coverage would you guys get?

Edit: yes I realize that's a very nebulous and case-by-case question, but go ahead and generalize as much as possible.

I doubt with your experience and ratings you could get more than a million with a $100k per passenger limit (non smooth). They told me I need 500 hours and an instrument rating for a smooth policy (no cap per passenger).

 

[ebykowsky]

Holy crap! I just went to request a quote and the $175/yr only gives $5000 in aircraft damage coverage and 250000 in bodily damage, 25000 in property. Is it likely the FBO's insurance would cover over 5000, or should I not count on that? I suppose the biggest concern would be bodily harm.

 

[DavidWhite]

I doubt with your experience and ratings you could get more than a million with a $100k per passenger limit

Yup. Not gonna get much more than that. At least without paying a ridiculous amount.

Don't kid your parents either, flying has risk and they need to be aware of it. I had to call mine to come pick me up after the plane I was flying filled up with smoke - they were pretty freaked out.

 

[DavidWhite]

Holy crap! I just went to request a quote and the $175/yr only gives $5000 in aircraft damage coverage and 250000 in bodily damage, 25000 in property. Is it likely the FBO's insurance would cover over 5000, or should I not count on that? I suppose the biggest concern would be bodily harm.

IIRC my policy was around $500 a year for 45k hull, 100k per passenger, and 1m per occurrence. Rental insurance isn't to protect an FBO, it's to protect YOU. If you ball up one of their planes their insurance company is going to sue you for damages.

 

[ebykowsky]

Yup. Not gonna get much more than that. At least without paying a ridiculous amount.

Don't kid your parents either, flying has risk and they need to be aware of it. I had to call mine to come pick me up after the plane I was flying filled up with smoke - they were pretty freaked out.

They know there's risk, and that's why they were the first to (rightly) consider insurance. Maybe this is my excuse to fly more so I can get better insurance

 

[ebykowsky]

IIRC my policy was around $500 a year for 45k hull, 100k per passenger, and 1m per occurrence. Rental insurance isn't to protect an FBO, it's to protect YOU. If you ball up one of their planes their insurance company is going to sue you for damages.

What if it's not my fault?

 

[DavidWhite]

What if it's not my fault?

I don't really know. As the pilot though they will do everything they can to pin it on you. Statistically speaking, you are much more likely to cause it than faulty maintenance. The plane I soloed in got wrecked by a student that porpoised during a xwind. I've caught myself doing dumb things, thought about doing dumb things, and after doing dumb things thought "Man that was dumb."

It happens. You're a (we're) teenagers and there's a reason most insurance prices are sky high for us. (But oddly enough not airplanes)

 

[John221us]

What if it's not my fault?

An engine out isn't going to be your fault, but could still total the plane. Once you are 18, though, I don't think they can go after your parents, though they could go after you for future earnings (BK would take care of that, though).

 

[poadeleted20]

Holy crap! I just went to request a quote and the $175/yr only gives $5000 in aircraft damage coverage and 250000 in bodily damage, 25000 in property. Is it likely the FBO's insurance would cover over 5000, or should I not count on that? I suppose the biggest concern would be bodily harm.

It is nearly certain you'd be stuck for any hull deductible the FBO has, so enough to cover that is pretty much essential unless you can handle it out-of-pocket. Ask the FBO about that. Beyond that for hull insurance, it depends on whether or not the FBO's insurer is likely to subrogate against you for what they pay the FBO for the damage to the plane. Again, ask the FBO about whether there is any "waiver of subrogation" clause in their policy. If not, you might want to carry enough to cover the likely level of damage incurred in any foreseeable accident. Are we talking about brand a new half-million dollar Cirrus or a $50K 1979 C-172?

As for liability, the sky's the limit, although $1M single limit seems to be the norm for third party liability, and it's hard to get more than $100K/seat to cover your passengers.

 

[saracelica]

Or you could join a flight club where you're part owner and then the club is responsible for your insurance. That's what I did.

 

[redtail]

An engine out isn't going to be your fault,

unless "ran tanks dry" is listed in the NTSB report

 

[poadeleted20]

Or you could join a flight club where you're part owner and then the club is responsible for your insurance. That's what I did.

While many clubs make their members additional named insureds, and being a "part owner" of a club may mean the club's insurance covers your share of any liability for the club's actions or the actions of another member, being a "part owner" as a club member does not automatically cover you for what happens while you're flying the plane and could, depending on the club's legal structure, actually make you responsible for the club's liabilities. Check the club documents and insurance policy (in consultation with an attorney, if necessary) before you trust that to be true.

 

[marcoseddi]

I paid 320 for 25k hull and 250k liability

 

[marcoseddi]

A month ago

 

[ebykowsky]

My thought is to get enough hull coverage for an overhaul, so about 25k like Marcos said. I feel like that's the most likely thing to occur for a low-time pilot (prop strike, hit something on the ground, etc) and if I ball it up altogether, we've got bigger issues. Liability, I'll leave that up to my parents. I also figure I can stomach about a 1K or so deductible. When I rent, I fly a nice '99 172S and a '70 172 that looks like someone left a feisty Pit Bull overnight in the cabin. (Pax get taken up in the SP for the most part).

 

[ebykowsky]

Well, I called that.
"Mom, looks like I should have renters insurance when flying."
"Alright, well you need to pay for it."
"Yeah, but it's going to be $300-400 for a year."
"How much liability does that give you?"
"100k/pax roughly"
"That's not enough."
"Well, it's the most I can get."
"OK, well you're not allowed to carry passengers, then. "

 

[dell30rb]

3 or 4 hundred a year for 100k per passenger? Sounds way high.

Get the club policy and read it. In my club we are covered for two million "smooth" in liability.

 

[ebykowsky]

3 or 4 hundred a year for 100k per passenger? Sounds way high.

Get the club policy and read it. In my club we are covered for two million "smooth" in liability.

The club isnt as much of an issue. I rent from FBOs over the summer when I'm home.
Also, AOPA only goes up to 100k/pax for renters.

 

[oldShar]

So, I've been flying and renting planes for the entirety of my training and post-checkride flights, and never really thought about getting insurance until now.

Some of my worries include:
Damage to the plane
Damage to others' property
Getting sued by a passenger or their relatives should I hurt them
Having to pay for something that wasn't my fault (engine-out, broken gyro, etc.)
Anything else?

First thing to note:
You aren't alone in this thought process.
Methinks most of us BTDT!

Second thing is when it comes to pricing insurance, realize that their order of assigning premiums is in reverse priority to your stated worries (but your order mirrored mine): The further UP in your list, the higher the premium.

 

[Fitzhume]

I don't know of any state where a parent can be held liable for a child's negligence. The only way your parents could be roped in would be if they were negligently entrusting you with their airplane.

I think the likelihood of an FBO's carrier instituting a subrogation suit against an 18 yo is somewhere between slim and none. That is, until you develop some app or social media site and sell it for $1B.

 

[dell30rb]

How many pilots are in your flying club?

300+


.

 

[weilke]

Well, I called that.
"Mom, looks like I should have renters insurance when flying."
"Alright, well you need to pay for it."
"Yeah, but it's going to be $300-400 for a year."
"How much liability does that give you?"
"100k/pax roughly"
"That's not enough."
"Well, it's the most I can get."
"OK, well you're not allowed to carry passengers, then. "

Once you'll grow up you will understand how right your mom was on this. Right now, everything your parents ever worked for is on the line so you can impress some of your peers. While that is to some extent true for anything you do, including driving your parents car, they probably have an umbrella liability policy that covers the other risks caused by you.

Btw.
CV Starr writes renters insurance with a 200k per passenger sublimit and 1mil aggregate. Still not much compared with any type of hospitalization or disability claim, but a bit more than the 100k everyone else seems to offer. Find an aviation insurance agency that carries CV Starr. Falcon is such an agency. AOPAIA does not carry this insurer, with them it's Chartis or bust.

 

[ebykowsky]

Once you'll grow up you will understand how right your mom was on this. Right now, everything your parents ever worked for is on the line so you can impress some of your peers. While that is to some extent true for anything you do, including driving your parents car, they probably have an umbrella liability policy that covers the other risks caused by you.

Btw.
CV Starr writes renters insurance with a 200k per passenger sublimit and 1mil aggregate. Still not much compared with any type of hospitalization or disability claim, but a bit more than the 100k everyone else seems to offer. Find an aviation insurance agency that carries CV Starr. Falcon is such an agency. AOPAIA does not carry this insurer, with them it's Chartis or bust.

What I don't understand is how most cap so low. It seems like I'd need far more than that for liability should it hit the fan. Could having pax sign waivers exonerate me?

 

[weilke]

What I don't understand is how most cap so low.

It is so expensive because claims in excess of 100k are relatively common. If those claims were rare, the insurers would give us 200,400 or 1mil sublimits for little premium.

I just looked at my Starr quote. 1mil/100k is $285. 1mil/200k is $749

It seems like I'd need far more than that for liability should it hit the fan.

Anything is available for a price. You can get 2mil smooth (no sublimits) non-owned. But you don't want to know how much it costs.

Could having pax sign waivers exonerate me?

While a passenger can sign away his own rights, he can't sign away the rights of his estate. As long as your passengers don't have earnings and kids to feed, there may be some benefit to it. If you deprive a family of its breadwinner, no piece of paper will stop the estate to go after your parents. In some states waivers have been held up in various situations including aviation.
You also can't waive gross negligence.

 

[poadeleted20]

While a passenger can sign away his own rights, he can't sign away the rights of his estate. As long as your passengers don't have earnings and kids to feed, there may be some benefit to it. If you deprive a family of its breadwinner, no piece of paper will stop the estate to go after your parents. In some states waivers have been held up in various situations including aviation.

In some states, like NY, exculpatory contracts ("waivers") have been determined to be unenforceable as a matter of public policy. Further, unless the waiver is very carefully written according to that state's law and also includes options such as insurance which may be purchased to mitigate the risk, they are generally useless. See the chapter on that in J. Scott Hamilton's "Practical Aviation Law."

 

[NoHeat]

A couple of years ago I checked and there seemed to be only two or three companies that were offering renter's insurance. One was AIG (has since changed names to Chartis) and another was Avemco.

Avemco sells direct. Chartis sells through agents. Choose whichever agent you like - and recognize that AOPA is merely an agent. Nothing wrong with the AOPA's agency, but there's nothing special about it either.

If you want to protect significant assets, you'll want the maximum liability coverage, which in the case of Chartis was $1 million but only $100k per passenger when I bought mine.

How to deal with the $100k sublimit:

When it comes time to carry passengers, feel free to carry penniless teenagers and grannies on social security. Do not carry rich middle-age people with kids, as their estates will want to sue for much more than $100k if you crash.

 

[John221us]

I don't know of any state where a parent can be held liable for a child's negligence. The only way your parents could be roped in would be if they were negligently entrusting you with their airplane.

I think the likelihood of an FBO's carrier instituting a subrogation suit against an 18 yo is somewhere between slim and none. That is, until you develop some app or social media site and sell it for $1B.

He is currently 17.

 

[moonshine]

If you ball up one of their planes their insurance company is going to sue you for damages.

Don't mean to be a troll, but I can't help but wonder, what came first - insurance for such cases or such cases.
..Do you need a recreational golf player insurance? I mean, a crappy swing can send the ball smack through the driver's side window into soccer mom's left temple, rendering her unconscious and making the minivan full of third-graders swerve into the school bus, which in turn could end up ramming the gas station - and yet, a quick google search provides either corporate insurances, or golfer's insurance offers that are apparently offered in Singapore and Hong Kong.
Should you request a waiver of subrogation when you play golf so that if that school bus end up ruining the lawn and driving over a golf cart full of third-party's clubs you won't get sued?

 

[ebykowsky]

How much will the FBO's 5mil smooth liability help? I'm not named and the policy is through USAIG. I figure the insurance company could come after us, but how likely would that be? And assuming no gross negligence, would they get anywhere at all? How do you define gross negligence?

 

[weilke]

I am aware of three providers of 'consumer grade' non-owned policies (as in policies written for individuals, not multi-million non-owned policies such as the ones a company chartering jets for business use would take out):

Chartis (formerly AIG)

highest limit 1m/100k per passenger sublimit

Avemco

1m/100k per person sublimit (iow including someone outside of your plane, e.g. in that that SUV that you bowl over on short final).

CV Starr

1m/200k per passenger sublimit

 

[NoHeat]

Passengers get killed in small planes all too often.

It's almost as dangerous as being a passenger on a motorcycle.

Killing minivan drivers while playing golf is not on the same planet, when it comes to real risk.

 

[bluee]

Don't mean to be a troll, but I can't help but wonder, what came first - insurance for such cases or such cases.
..Do you need a recreational golf player insurance? I mean, a crappy swing can send the ball smack through the driver's side window into soccer mom's left temple, rendering her unconscious and making the minivan full of third-graders swerve into the school bus, which in turn could end up ramming the gas station - and yet, a quick google search provides either corporate insurances, or golfer's insurance offers that are apparently offered in Singapore and Hong Kong.
Should you request a waiver of subrogation when you play golf so that if that school bus end up ruining the lawn and driving over a golf cart full of third-party's clubs you won't get sued?

It's called General Liability Insurance.

 

[weilke]

How much will the FBO's 5mil smooth liability help? I'm not named and the policy is through USAIG.

Does the policy include a waiver of subrogation for any authorized pilot ? If they do, you are in pretty good shape and only a minimal policy (250k w 5k hull) to cover your cost of defense if you are personally named is sufficient.

I figure the insurance company could come after us, but how likely would that be?

According to everyone I have talked in the industry the chances of that happening are low.

And assuming no gross negligence, would they get anywhere at all?

Sure. If you did something culpable to cause the loss AND you are not the insured under the policy, either the insurance or the owner of the aircraft CAN go after you. Maybe 2 years ago we had a poster here who dinged a Cessna 150, iirc on his third solo (prop-strike with runway light during botched crosswind landing). The FBO had talked him out of getting a renters policy when he started flying with them. In the end, that experience set him back somewhere around $18,000 between the legal bills and the settlement to avoid going to trial for the claim that the leaseback owner had against him.