TMetzinger
Final Approach
To all of the above.
Reno Air Races 2011.... Serious Crash
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To all of the above.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
"Hold my beer, watch this!"
Hey, he along with his friends and family thought ole' Billy Bob could climb that tree with his Honda 250..
Inverted
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"Hold my beer, watch this!"
Hey, he along with his friends and family thought ole' Billy Bob could climb that tree with his Honda 250..
Thats not quite how it goes in air racing friend. Jimmy Leeward was one of the more accomplished air racing pilots. He has been racing longer than any current racers. Jimmy at 74 was fully competent in his abilities to race.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
Did I ever say that's how it goes in air racing? My comment had zero to do with air racing, it was simply a harmless tounge in cheek comment made about another posters "if he, his friends and family think it's ok, have at it!" comment.
The fact remains, Jimmy was unable, for whatever reasons, to recover after the initial pitch up. All images from the roll to inverted and subsequent pitch to terra firma show Jimmy not actively at the controls of the aircraft. Whether it was age related or not, only Jimmy and God know.
nddons
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Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
And more uninformed commontary/questions from the talking head in the studio. Not interested in what she thinks. The picture was quite instructive, however. 9 confirmed dead? RIP.
denverpilot
Tied Down
It's okay, most of us got the joke. We're just annoyed with the general public's take on the whole thing.
We as pilots know you don't just show up with an ASEL certificate and get to fly an aircraft like Galloping Goose at Reno. If the public had any idea of what he had to learn and do to even get in that seat... sigh... oh well.
BellyUpFish
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ChrisRikli
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Yeah, I've explained to at least five people in the last couple of days that age most likely had very little to do with this.Yeh, the public will never have a clue and it makes me want to...
The couple of people that I've taken flying, it was easy to say, "You know that little wheel I'm always messing with as we gain speed? Now image we're going 4x as fast and the little piece of metal I've been adjusting flies off." They got it then.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Explanatory post on the BeechTalk board I found helpful.
Best,
Dave
==================================================
Almost, every airplane has an wing angle of incidence built into it. The design should make little or no trim tab required at cruise speed and a "normal' weight and balance". When a plane is flown well above the original design the elevator must be trimmed down. The faster you go the more trim tab required.
If you get a chance to hold you hand outside going about 150MPH the force of the air is tremendous. At 500 MPH the force is more than ten times the force at 150 MPH. The trim tab is probably 10 times the size of the little bit of hand you can get into the wind at 150 MPH so the total force on the trim tab could be 100 times what you feel! There could easily be 1000 lbs down force on the elevator.Nobody in the world would be strong enough to physically hold an out of control elevator at 500 MPH. I once had the same effect with a rudder, when I was test flying a new design. I was like a rag doll and totally unable to affect the rudder controls.
I would have broken the rudder control system and still not been able to control the rudder. That was at about 200MPH, well below the 500 MPH that the P51 was going.
Best,
Dave
==================================================
Almost, every airplane has an wing angle of incidence built into it. The design should make little or no trim tab required at cruise speed and a "normal' weight and balance". When a plane is flown well above the original design the elevator must be trimmed down. The faster you go the more trim tab required.
If you get a chance to hold you hand outside going about 150MPH the force of the air is tremendous. At 500 MPH the force is more than ten times the force at 150 MPH. The trim tab is probably 10 times the size of the little bit of hand you can get into the wind at 150 MPH so the total force on the trim tab could be 100 times what you feel! There could easily be 1000 lbs down force on the elevator.Nobody in the world would be strong enough to physically hold an out of control elevator at 500 MPH. I once had the same effect with a rudder, when I was test flying a new design. I was like a rag doll and totally unable to affect the rudder controls.
I would have broken the rudder control system and still not been able to control the rudder. That was at about 200MPH, well below the 500 MPH that the P51 was going.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Most people don't even understand those same physics at slower speeds in their cars, nor what a speed increase from 55 to 75 MPH does to their impact forces in a collision...
They definitely don't care about how it works in an aircraft.
They definitely don't care about how it works in an aircraft.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
I dunno if that's 100% true though. Not being argumentative, I just don't know.
It's obvious from the images, some point very shortly after the malfunction Mr. Leeward was just along for the ride.
Look at the pictures here: http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ga...=EVENTS05&ArtNo=109160802&Ref=PH&Profile=1459
The pictures show no head in the cockpit, which indicates that he was indeed not flying the plane and didn't "steer away" from the crowd.
There is an image of him inverted and he has his head in his lap, very similar to where it most likely in the pictures in the above line.
Did age "cause" the crash? Obviously not.
Could age have been the weakest link in the disaster chain? Very possibly.
Would a younger pilot have stayed awake during the violent pitch up after the malfunction? No telling. I'm not sure if Hannah blacked out when it happened to Voodoo Chile or not.
Has it been confirmed whether or not he called a mayday? I keep hearing he didn't..
L.Adamson
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L.Adamson
From all I've read, in the last few days (which is a lot of info) ..........apparently Hannah did black out. I have not kept up with this particular thread.
L.Adamson
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Drake the Outlaw
According to published reports, Hannah did black out. I think this was a situation where any pilot would have blacked out.
When the trim tab failed, that airplane experienced an instantaneous pitch-up at 8+ G's (that's what it apparently takes to fail the tailwheel up-lock), which will GLOC anyone who isn't prepared, and certainly Mr. Leeward wasn't expecting that, and couldn't have been prepared for it.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
8G's is a bunch. I would have been asleep in short order, no doubt.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
First off, some more discussion is over here: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42551
The aircraft being used in these races are NOT that elderly by aircraft standards. They are state-of-the-art experimental aircraft and many, many of the parts on these aircraft are not excessively old. The GG team had been working hard on making the aircraft a serious contender, and I'm certain is now devastated at their loss. Accusing them of flying an "elderly" aircraft is not thoughtful... nor accurate.
As far as the pilot's age, I'm certain that it will bring a public outcry, but the truth is that most of us would probably be no better off than Mr. Leeward in that circumstance, unless we were trained aerobatic pilots. GLOC can even affect a Blue Angel... fatally.
Ryan
bfergie10
Pre-Flight
I agree that age did not cause this crash. The man was a very experienced pilot in this type of flying and held a 2nd class medical. At what age would you consider it not being a factor?
I kinda have a hunch that the catastrophic failure of the trim tab was the weakest link in the chain. This was not some senile old man that mixed up the gas and brake pedal and drove his car through the front door of the local Dollar General.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
I hold a First class and am not in the best of shape, holding a specific class medical means very little, especially when there are AME's in the biz just to get people medicals.
However, like I said, I'm not sure age played a roll. It may have, it may not have.
You could very well be right. 8G's is a lot for anyone, especially someone not expecting them.
I'm not saying he's some crazy old man who had no purpose being in the cockpit. I'm sure I would have no issues riding with him.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Especially considering no speed jeans or seat designed to minimize the force on the body.
Jet jocks in good shape might be able to pull 8 without blacking out, but they have a lot help from modern conveniences to keep the blood in the right places. The ejection seat in an F-16, for example is built at a slight recline to help the pilot withstand max Gs. I don't think anyone could have withstood that force and in Galloping Ghost and remained conscious.
callmesven
Pre-Flight
I was one of the folks that witnessed the event from the front row of the ramp. After he rounded the last pylon there was an unusual and frightening turning toward the crowd at low altitude. Several friends who were in the pits heard an audible bang. Some saw the trim tab depart the plane. They all said they could clearly see the pilot at this point. Shortly after that he pulled up violently. There were three pilots (including myself) in my group and we all commented while the plane was still flying that he had to have blacked out. Don't be surprised if after everything is analyzed he was pulling in excess of 10 Gs. As the plane rolled at a low altitude there was a very prominent wobble along the longitudinal axis. This porpoising happened 3-4 times. Right after that the plane took a nosedive and crashed. From our angle it did not look like he was pulling up. The dive angle remained constant. I took several pictures of the event and the pilot is not visible on the way up or down. As we watched the incident unfold we were all commenting that we believed he was unconscious. Granted, just because we're pilots and witnesses does not make us experts. But all three of us were making the same comments during the erratic flight. I'm sure the pilot could pull more Gs than I ever could. However, the ascent was so violent it made us wonder if he was prepared for it or if the severity of the ascent surprised even him and he was overcome. Also, at no time did any of us hear a change in rpm. The engine seemed to remain at high rpm the entire time.
bigred177
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Talking with the Miss America guys, the GG had a "black box" in it. Ended up with 10.2 G's. Sudden onset with no g-suit, I don't think anyone could stay awake through that.
gprellwitz
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My understanding is that those pilots who do high G maneuvers without a G suit go through an exercise where they consciously clench their lower extremeties and do a series of breathing exercises in order to tolerate the G forces. The pilot here would have had no opportunity to do that whatsoever. He could have been an 18 year old triathelete, and I think that at 8-10 Gs with no preparation he would have been incapacitated. It's tragic, but I don't think it's an age thing.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yeah, if that telemetry report is accurate, the pilot was doomed, regardless of age or training.
AcroBoy
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Jim N
Having done 10g in a centrifuge, and routinely doing around 7 in my plane, a good g strain is much more effective than a g suit (even including a vest and helmet bladder). The suit helps some, but is not enough alone or without a good g strain. A transient and unexpected 10g load might not necessarily guaranty a g-loc since the energy bleeds off quickly as compared to a prolonged 7g turn in high performance jet.
Anyway, assuming that the pilot was rendered unconscious may not be factual.
Anyway, assuming that the pilot was rendered unconscious may not be factual.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
But, wouldn't that still leave many, many parts that are? My '58 182A has many, many new parts. But that doesn't mean it's not old.
I'd be curious to know the time in service of that trim tab and hinge. I assume that information will become known during the investigation.
Also, "elderly" comes much sooner when the plane's flying 150mph faster than it was initially designed to. I'm sure components have been beefed up & assemblies stiffened but still. Day in and day out high g force racing is hard on equipment and it's quite difficult to find everything.
I have no doubt that the racing team takes every precaution that they can. I have no doubt that the pilot was very skilled and was someone I would fly with (though not doing this). It was a very, very sad day for aviation and my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone impacted. But...
Reasonable steps do not seem to have been taken by the people involved in the Reno Air races to make the event as safe as possible. And, I fear the repercussions from this will be felt far and wide. And that's sad too, because it is such a great event.
As an aside, in physically demanding team sports, where you must stay competitive to get any playing time, where money and the the will simply aren't enough to keep you in the game, the oldest have been:
NHL-Gordie Howe 53
NFL-George Blanda 48
MLB-Satchel Paige 59
Okay, I know it's a stretch to refer to MLB as physically demanding. Maybe that's why Satchel lasted so much longer.
rottydaddy
En-Route
A good point. I'm thinking something like a trim tab, particularly, would be very fresh and routinely serviced on such an airplane. Maybe a "maintenance-induced failure", hard to say. There's not much left of the airframe to analyze, AFAIK.
Whatever the case, it bit him so quick and so hard I doubt anybody could have flown out of that.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
I disagree - I think the steps taken were reasonable. "As safe as possible" is, like "reasonable", a matter of opinion.
I considered the effects of relocating the crowd. But if an airplane is out of control, there's no place "safe". That airplane could have come down in the infield, in the stands, or in a nearby town (<sarcasm. on a school! - think of the children </sarcasm>)
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I hope the Races are not stopped over this event. Safety improvements, or relocation of grandstands / seating to the infield (perhaps; Tim's point above is valid). Learn from the tragedy, make improvements, but don't cancel the Races.
We haven't cancelled Baseball, NASCAR or Hockey, and more spectators have died in each of those events in the stands than they have at the Air Races.
We haven't cancelled Baseball, NASCAR or Hockey, and more spectators have died in each of those events in the stands than they have at the Air Races.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
First off the whole thing just sucks.
But Tim may be right, atleast for the way the public will see it.
Public view is likely to be that the Pilot was too old to be flying too old of a plane too fast, too low and too close to the spectators.
I think that all but the speed and altitude (as they are the point of air racing) need to at least be examined by those far smarter than I in each area, if only to keep the sheeple happy.
I can see how this could put an end to Reno as we know it, I just hope that that ISN'T what happens.
But Tim may be right, atleast for the way the public will see it.
Public view is likely to be that the Pilot was too old to be flying too old of a plane too fast, too low and too close to the spectators.
I think that all but the speed and altitude (as they are the point of air racing) need to at least be examined by those far smarter than I in each area, if only to keep the sheeple happy.
I can see how this could put an end to Reno as we know it, I just hope that that ISN'T what happens.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Bill Odam was flying a green Mustang at the Cleveland Air Races in 1949 when he crashed into a house near the course, killing a young mother and her child. That was the end of the Cleveland Air Races.
My sincerest condolences to all involved. Tragedy doesn't always have an author. I felt sick when I heard the news.
My sincerest condolences to all involved. Tragedy doesn't always have an author. I felt sick when I heard the news.
denverpilot
Tied Down
If Reno's politicians don't step in and say they appreciate the business (and jobs) the Air Races bring to their community soon, and meant, I predict this will all end badly.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Very sorry to hear about this.
Can a military fighter pilot withstand 10 G's for a second or two without a g-suit and not black out for an extended period? I'm sure there are studies and info about this. Obviously any pilot would lose control momentarily from such an unexpected force. But in looking at the video it seems he could have recovered if he was conscious. I know the blue angels don't wear G suits and i'll bet they hit 7-8 g's at times.
For a 74 year old, i'd think 10g's could be fatal, or crippling.
I don't really have an opinion as to if he should have been flying or not. This is a freak thing...
Obviously he was healthy and mentally sharp enough to withstand the 'normal' forces of reno racing.
Can a military fighter pilot withstand 10 G's for a second or two without a g-suit and not black out for an extended period? I'm sure there are studies and info about this. Obviously any pilot would lose control momentarily from such an unexpected force. But in looking at the video it seems he could have recovered if he was conscious. I know the blue angels don't wear G suits and i'll bet they hit 7-8 g's at times.
For a 74 year old, i'd think 10g's could be fatal, or crippling.
I don't really have an opinion as to if he should have been flying or not. This is a freak thing...
Obviously he was healthy and mentally sharp enough to withstand the 'normal' forces of reno racing.
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TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
NASA chart. Note the band of G's vs. time (duration exposed) during which humans "lose it".
You're unconscious above 10G's for more than a couple seconds, without some sort of assistance. Unexpected 10G load has to be worse--you're not prepared to do any straining to keep blood where it needs to be.
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AcroBoy
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Jim N
A momentary 10g load might or might not result in a gloc. Also, it is important to remember that he might have started with a hard pull in a turn at 3 or more g, so the delta would have been around 6, not 9. The g suit does help, but not that much. In a piston single the acceleration and energy decrease rapidly, as compared to a fighter jet.
Regardless of the g load, he really didn't appear to have much time to react.
Regardless of the g load, he really didn't appear to have much time to react.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
New video has surfaced.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=44576019�?from=en-us_msnhp>1=43001
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=44576019�?from=en-us_msnhp>1=43001
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow. Can you imagine being there from that vantage point?
flyingriki
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flyingriki
Saw exactly the same thing as Sven. Seems it hasn't been mentioned that recovering from G-Loc is not like a normal blackout. Full awareness doesn't come back right away. I certainly hope he didn't see what was going to happen. A truly sad day. Will miss him. Condolences to all affected by this tragedy.
Attachments
Bob Bement
Pattern Altitude
How many died in the crowd when the wind blew the stage over at a concert of some kind here just recently? Are they going to cancel all future concerts because the stage collapsed? I doubt it.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I'm just wondering about how much insurance and what kind of cash reserves the sponsors have. They'll be fighting lawsuits for the foreseeable future. I can't imagine their insurers remewing that policy without a pretty hefty rate increase.
Doesn't always take government action to shut down a good show.
Doesn't always take government action to shut down a good show.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
You are making one mistake, injecting logic into mob mentality.