Removing goggles on IR checkride

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mryan75

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mryan75
So I was doing IR checkride prep today (my ride is on Tuesday). Went up with an instrument-rated buddy sitting right seat. Went out to the practice area. We have two G5’s stacked and a GTN750 in our Cherokee. Plan was to simulate partial panel and do a partial panel approach. Failed the top G5 by turning the screen brightness all the way down. Did some standard rate turns for a few minutes and then got into the approach. (It’s the RNAV15 at KRME). Flew to the IAF (about 12 miles of flying, so figure a couple minutes). Slowed the plane down for the hold. Did the hold. Came inbound, flew the approach to minimums and went missed, all with the G5 PFD failed, ie no artificial horizon. On the missed started feeling a little funky. Got to about 2,500 feet on climbout and told my buddy, “I gotta take these off for a sec.”

I didn’t get nauseous, but I’ve had this happen before where I just get a bit of the sweats and start feeling funky. I had flown for probably 25-30 minutes with no AH, doing turns, then a long descent (10-mile final) and then a real-life missed. As in nailed the throttle, positive rate, get the heck outta there.

Now that I think about it I didn’t feel funky until the missed. I imagine it was from the descent of the approach, then the accelerating climb. But my question is this: on my exam, would I get pegged if I have to pull off the foggles?

I struggled a bit with motion sickness when I started flying instruments and it took me a while to find the right pair of foggles. I will admit that I do have to take them off now and again. Probably every second or third flight. And after 5 minutes or so I’m fine, I put them back on, and I’m able to complete the flights no problem. Today, for example, after I put them back on we did an ILS circle to land to finish the flight. So it’s not like I have to take them off and I’m done. I just need to get my senses back I guess.

So what do you guys think? If I get feeling crappy on the checkride, to the point where I feel I need to pull them off, what should I do? And do you think the DPE will nail me for it? For info he’s a good guy, reputation of being a very fair examiner.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Are you wearing things that limit your distance vision when you look through them, or things that block your side vision? Asking because maybe if you have the first kind, it's your eyes that are bugging you, not the motion?
 
I would talk to your examiner, but one of the things you’re doing is simulating instrument conditions. Since you can’t “turn off” instrument conditions like that, it could very well be a checkride issue.

If it’s an issue with your view limiting device, you probably want to find something that works.
 
Albany Tom said:
Are you wearing things that limit your distance vision when you look through them, or things that block your side vision? Asking because maybe if you have the first kind, it's your eyes that are bugging you, not the motion?
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Definitely blocks out everything. I don’t even know how to describe it. Just funky. I don’t feel sick like I want to vomit. A little queasy I guess. And there have been times it was slight and I just told myself ya gotta stick it out and did. I really think today it was the go-around on the missed with no AH. And I’ve flown in actual with no problem.

I’m not sure by any means it would happen on the checkride. I did. approaches yesterday with no problems, did some on Monday no problem. In fact Monday I did turning stalls and unusual attitudes, no problems at all.

The foggles I use are Blockalls.
 
And the title should read FOGGLES. Apparently Apple can’t figure that word out even after I type it 50 times in a row.
 
Those are the kind I use. The clear part is just clear. So it's not an eye strain thing.
 
mryan75 said:
So what do you guys think? If I get feeling crappy on the checkride, to the point where I feel I need to pull them off, what should I do? And do you think the DPE will nail me for it? For info he’s a good guy, reputation of being a very fair examiner.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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The DPE can't fail you if you say you're not feeling well and ask to discontinue the checkride. Of course that means you'll have to come back for the rest of the checkride on a later date. Naturally you will want to get over this during training so that hopefully it won't come to that.
 
As soon as you start feeling the least bit rough, increase cabin airflow and decrease the temp if you can. You should feel better within a very short time.
 
Craig said:
As soon as you start feeling the least bit rough, increase cabin airflow and decrease the temp if you can. You should feel better within a very short time.
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It’s interesting that you say that, even though it was a cooler day, my safety pilot mentioned how hot it was in the cockpit. Cloudless day, direct sun on us obviously. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounds like you’re experiencing vertigo.
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It’s weird because I don’t feel any of the things you’re told to expect. I felt a slight bit of the leans during some of the turns, but only very slight. Didn’t fee any weird sensations during the go around. No tumbling sensation, etc.
 
I was going to suggest blockalls as traditional foggles make me nauseous. Might be worth trying a hood.
 
dmspilot said:
The DPE can't fail you if you say you're not feeling well and ask to discontinue the checkride. Of course that means you'll have to come back for the rest of the checkride on a later date. Naturally you will want to get over this during training so that hopefully it won't come to that.
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I really appreciate your comment, thank you. There has been a few times (this doesn’t happen all the time, probably 3-5 times in 60 hours of simulated IMC) where it came on slightly and I just told myself to breathe and fought it off. The fact that happened today just got me thinking about the checkride.
 
Jim K said:
I was going to suggest blockalls as traditional foggles make me nauseous. Might be worth trying a hood.
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Just ordered two hoods from Amazon. The regular foggles are awful with all the light coming in. I’d possible that it’s from the lenses of the blockalls.
 
I found the cheapo cardboard hood to work surprisingly well.
 
mryan75 said:
As in nailed the throttle, positive rate, get the heck outta there.
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Nailing the throttle might be messing you up, the sudden acceleration. Try advancing the throttle, from low power to full power over 3 or 4 seconds. It might help and better for the engine.

Also, as Salty said, the cardboard hoods work great.
 
PaulS said:
Nailing the throttle might be messing you up, the sudden acceleration. Try advancing the throttle, from low power to full power over 3 or 4 seconds. It might help and better for the engine.

Also, as Salty said, the cardboard hoods work great.
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That's actually a fantastic suggestion as well, thank you! I don't mean that I jam the throttle in as hard and fast as I can, but I certainly didn't make any effort to make a smooth transition on the throttle. I'll give that a shot today.

I also ordered this today:

https://www.amazon.com/Reliefband-S...d&qid=1635517981&sprefix=relie,aps,146&sr=8-5

There were a few reviews from pilots who said it helped, and a lot of reviews from non-pilots who said it worked wonders for their airsickness.
 
mryan75 said:
That's actually a fantastic suggestion as well, thank you! I don't mean that I jam the throttle in as hard and fast as I can, but I certainly didn't make any effort to make a smooth transition on the throttle. I'll give that a shot today.

I also ordered this today:

https://www.amazon.com/Reliefband-Sickness-Wristband-Increased-Drug-Free/dp/B07W7CDN9W/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3Q0C2UGO4Q61C&dchild=1&keywords=relief+band&qid=1635517981&sprefix=relie,aps,146&sr=8-5

There were a few reviews from pilots who said it helped, and a lot of reviews from non-pilots who said it worked wonders for their airsickness.
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I have a ReliefBand and it did help for me or airsickness until I was flying enough that my systems were used to it all.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I have a ReliefBand and it did help for me or airsickness until I was flying enough that my systems were used to it all.
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Very grateful for that feedback!

I don't mean to make it seem as if I throw up every time I fly. Yesterday was the first time it happened in a while, but with the checkride on Tuesday it made me think, gee, what if...?
 
Getting back at it today, by the way. One flight today, one on Monday, checkride on Tuesday.
 
When did you eat last??? I find that I will get like that if I didn’t eat something recently when flying.
 
benyflyguy said:
When did you eat last??? I find that I will get like that if I didn’t eat something recently when flying.
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That's a good question, I hadn't really thought about it. I didn't eat a whole lot that day. I've also read that you should be hydrated, which I definitely do a poor job of.

The other thing I thought about, I have a tendency to hold my breath or breathe very shallow when I'm stressed, so I wonder if that has something to do with it as well. Because I am sure I do that when flying at times.
 
mryan75 said:
That's a good question, I hadn't really thought about it. I didn't eat a whole lot that day. I've also read that you should be hydrated, which I definitely do a poor job of.

The other thing I thought about, I have a tendency to hold my breath or breathe very shallow when I'm stressed, so I wonder if that has something to do with it as well. Because I am sure I do that when flying at times.
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Young Eagle pilot here.....the YE flights are usually the first one the kid has taken in a small plane. They're clutching the yoke like a life preserver. I tell them to take a deep breath. Take another one. And another one. All of a sudden, the nails are not digging into the palm of the hand, they're smiling, even having fun.

As soon as you realize your breathing has changed, slow count to 5, take a deep breath on each count....amazing how well it helps.
 
murphey said:
Young Eagle pilot here.....the YE flights are usually the first one the kid has taken in a small plane. They're clutching the yoke like a life preserver. I tell them to take a deep breath. Take another one. And another one. All of a sudden, the nails are not digging into the palm of the hand, they're smiling, even having fun.

As soon as you realize your breathing has changed, slow count to 5, take a deep breath on each count....amazing how well it helps.
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Very much appreciate the suggestion!
 
I puked my guts out on my checkride. It was a bumpy day, I fight motion sickness like crazy, and unusual attitudes did me in. Had to do my last approach into Chico partial panel and puking. DPE asked if I wanted to finish at another time. I told him no and that someday I might have to land while sick on my own and let’s finish it. We did. I passed. Nothing more to it! Embrace the suck if it happens and get it done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
How about keeping a stiff neck, head down. and white knuckling over that amount of time? I have no hood time but I wonder if the simulation of a hood might inhibit a more natural stress response and relief. Simple as taking a drink, does tilting your head back mimic cheating for a peak at the horizon? How about rolling your head around the neck, shuffling in your seat, twisting at the hips or stretching your arms up and back which arching your back?
 
Albany Tom said:
Those are the kind I use. The clear part is just clear. So it's not an eye strain thing.
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maybe...just maybe it actually is.
Those safety glasses aren't exactly great optical quality....

back when I did mine there were hood, and foggles. Not all these other variations. I'm not even sure if they had the tinted grey ones or not. Mine are just frosted clear cheap safety glasses
I had great vision back then. But couldn't stand the way the light played with those things. reflections and smudges drove me nuts. I recon based on experience of years of wearing safety glasses for work that there's distortion from them too.
I took a hack saw and carefully cut out the clear parts, leaving only the nose pads and the frosted areas. Much better. I still have those old jurry-rigged looking things today!

I wonder..... if you paused the ride because you were sick, then you'd just have to retake the ride
If you pulled them off as you described you'd likely fail I would think.
What would happen if you had prepared with a handy sick sack....toss your cookies as needed and keep going. How would most examiners handle that?

Regardless...good luck finding a good solution!
 
When I started ppl lessons I had a devil of a time with motion sickness. The relief band helped a lot, as did peppermint balls, cold wet towel on the neck, etc.

I got over it eventually - until unusual attitudes while under the hood. I’m going to dig that relief band out of the bottom of my bag and use it for the up coming check ride myself. I’m at the point of getting polished enough to get CFII sign off for the ride.
 
In real life, if the top G5 fails, the bottom one will automatically revert to AI. So you should simulate a failed top G5 by turning it off, not turning the brightness down. Of course, the DPE might not have any idea about the failure modes of your equipment. I don’t suppose you can argue with him when he says “the top one failed and the bottom one stays on HSI mode. . .” If he says the screen failed but the unit is working otherwise, turn it off, explaining that that’s what would happen in the situation he described. Or when he covers both of them and says you’ve had a total electrical failure, it won’t go well if you remind him that the G5 battery is good for something like 3 hours! I’m glad my last check ride is probably behind me.

But, check ride aside, it’s important to know the real-world failure modes of your equipment.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
In real life, if the top G5 fails, the bottom one will automatically revert to AI. So you should simulate a failed top G5 by turning it off, not turning the brightness down. Of course, the DPE might not have any idea about the failure modes of your equipment. I don’t suppose you can argue with him when he says “the top one failed and the bottom one stays on HSI mode. . .” If he says the screen failed but the unit is working otherwise, turn it off, explaining that that’s what would happen in the situation he described. Or when he covers both of them and says you’ve had a total electrical failure, it won’t go well if you remind him that the G5 battery is good for something like 3 hours! I’m glad my last check ride is probably behind me.

But, check ride aside, it’s important to know the real-world failure modes of your equipment.
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Yeah, I could just flip the bottom G5 and I have FF with synthetic vision. But the reality is he has to give me partial panel on the ride somehow. I'd have to have a lot go wrong in our plane to wind up truly partial panel, but the checkride is another story. The DPE has given other IR rides in this airplane and he knows the in's an out's of the G5's, and this is how he does it - just has you turn the screen brightness all the way down. The cool thing is, of course, that even in HSI mode, you still get a glideslope and localizer on the bottom G5.
 
I suspect that would be an interesting conversation with the examiner.... one that is probably worth bringing up and might give you points for knowing about your equipment and how to use it...
but
I also suspect that the DE's real motivation is more akin to "simulating" failure of an old school gyro AI. Pretend you're in a different plane, kind of thing
 
Brad W said:
maybe...just maybe it actually is.
Those safety glasses aren't exactly great optical quality....

back when I did mine there were hood, and foggles. Not all these other variations. I'm not even sure if they had the tinted grey ones or not. Mine are just frosted clear cheap safety glasses
I had great vision back then. But couldn't stand the way the light played with those things. reflections and smudges drove me nuts. I recon based on experience of years of wearing safety glasses for work that there's distortion from them too.
I took a hack saw and carefully cut out the clear parts, leaving only the nose pads and the frosted areas. Much better. I still have those old jurry-rigged looking things today!

I wonder..... if you paused the ride because you were sick, then you'd just have to retake the ride
If you pulled them off as you described you'd likely fail I would think.
What would happen if you had prepared with a handy sick sack....toss your cookies as needed and keep going. How would most examiners handle that?

Regardless...good luck finding a good solution!
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've got two pairs of the Blockalls, I might try and hack the glass/lens portion out of one pair of them today.
 
Peter Anderson said:
I puked my guts out on my checkride. It was a bumpy day, I fight motion sickness like crazy, and unusual attitudes did me in. Had to do my last approach into Chico partial panel and puking. DPE asked if I wanted to finish at another time. I told him no and that someday I might have to land while sick on my own and let’s finish it. We did. I passed. Nothing more to it! Embrace the suck if it happens and get it done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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That's hardcore! Did you have a bag? I keep a plastic shopping bag in the front pocket of my flight bag in case I need to hurl (I've always done it, even before I got into instrument training). A friend of mine upchucked once while flying, and he said it's a real pain cleaning the airplane after that!
 
Brad W said:
I suspect that would be an interesting conversation with the examiner.... one that is probably worth bringing up and might give you points for knowing about your equipment and how to use it...
but
I also suspect that the DE's real motivation is more akin to "simulating" failure of an old school gyro AI. Pretend you're in a different plane, kind of thing
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
mryan75 said:
That's hardcore! Did you have a bag? I keep a plastic shopping bag in the front pocket of my flight bag in case I need to hurl (I've always done it, even before I got into instrument training). A friend of mine upchucked once while flying, and he said it's a real pain cleaning the airplane after that!
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I’m always equipped with a bag!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I have always gotten motion sickness… as a licensed boat captain and a commercial pilot. My advice it gets better with exposure. I cant do the clear foggles but am totally fine with the tinted. Maybe like some who prefer the hood. You can find something or a way that works for you. I always bring up Bob Hoover when other pilots try to give me grief.
 
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