Removing a C150 Door

Erice

Erice

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Erice
Does removing the door on a Cessna 150 make it un-airworthy, according to its airworthiness certificate? Where would I look to find that out?

For purposes of a photo shoot, or making a pre-arranged drop (think flour-sack bombing or a peanut-drop), it would be much more convenient to accomplish with the door removed. The options of opening the window to drop something, or hanging a camera out the window to avoid all the window scratches, is a real hassle. Holding the door open into the slipstream for the drop equally challenging. Using a J-3 Cub would solve the problem, but alas the one that used to be available has been sold.

If having the 150 door removed doesn't violate the airworthiness certificate, would I be able to remove the door myself as an owner/operator, or would I need an A&P to do it?
 
check the equipment list in your POH. see if it listed are required or optional.
 
Take the screw out of the window stop on the leading edge of the window and air pressure will hold it up against the bottom of the wing. Put the screw back in when you are done, it ticks off the FBO (me) when the window is left flapping all the time.
Dave
 
d.grimm said:
Take the screw out of the window stop on the leading edge of the window and air pressure will hold it up against the bottom of the wing. Put the screw back in when you are done, it ticks off the FBO (me) when the window is left flapping all the time.
Dave
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It's not that simple on a Cessna 150. That does work on most Cessna 172s though.
 
Erice said:
Does removing the door on a Cessna 150 make it un-airworthy, ?
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Yes, it no longer complies with its type design, read the type certificate and data sheet. doors are not listed as a optional item.

this is why the FAA requires an STC to remove the right hand door to enable jumpers. or to change the door opening to operate on floats.


If in doubt, call FSDO
 
I was looking into a 1969 172, maybe G? last night and I saw a placard on the panel that said something like "consult POH for operating limitations for doors off flight". But, that's probably been long outdated.
 
Arbiter419 said:
I was looking into a 1969 172, maybe G? last night and I saw a placard on the panel that said something like "consult POH for operating limitations for doors off flight". But, that's probably been long outdated.
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No..... the aircraft probably has a STC to operate with the door off. and the STC instructions call out the operating speeds. which are placed in the POH as per the STC instructions.

those STC are for ever, or until removed by 337.
 
Tom-D said:
No..... the aircraft probably has a STC to operate with the door off. and the STC instructions call out the operating speeds. which are placed in the POH as per the STC instructions.

those STC are for ever, or until removed by 337.
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Ah, I see. Makes sense. I saw a few guys flying a Cessna 170 on Vimeo with the doors off, looked pretty fun. What operating limitations could you expect from flying with the doors off?
 
In the 1970s I flew an Auster, towing gliders. The doors were on quick-release hinges and on hot days I left them on the ground. Lost two cowboy hats that way; used to take the hat off and toss it behind the seats and put on the headset, and in the aggressive slip to get back to the airport after a tow the wind came through the cabin and cleaned it out. Often wondered what some dude suntanning in his backyard thought of the hat lazily floating down from nowhere, since the airplane would be long gone.

Dan
 
Arbiter419 said:
Ah, I see. Makes sense. I saw a few guys flying a Cessna 170 on Vimeo with the doors off, looked pretty fun. What operating limitations could you expect from flying with the doors off?
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never trust the owner operator to be legal. that's why we have ramp checks.

The STC for the sea plane door on most Cessna's restricts the airspeed with the door up. the jump door mod does not because the door is removed. ( it can't come off in flight ) = no speed restrictions
 
Dan Thomas said:
Often wondered what some dude suntanning in his backyard thought of the hat lazily floating down from nowhere, since the airplane would be long gone. Dan
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I thought it was a message from GOD,, and changed my ways :)
 
Actually, AC105-2C has a list of aircraft that CAN be operated with 1 door removed. Pretty much all Cessna singles are on the list.
 
slowjoe said:
Actually, AC105-2C has a list of aircraft that CAN be operated with 1 door removed. Pretty much all Cessna singles are on the list.
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AC's are not authorization to deviate from the type certificate. You still need at least a field approval. Using the list from the AC will in most cases get the mod approved.
 
slowjoe said:
Actually, AC105-2C has a list of aircraft that CAN be operated with 1 door removed. Pretty much all Cessna singles are on the list.
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Reread that list carefully. It uses an "X" or a "*" symbol next to the aircraft that are either procedures contained in the Flight Manual Supplement or the POH.

The note beneath that indicates that the other aircraft listed will either be modified by STC or Field Approval. The Cessna 120 through 172 fall into this category.
 
Tom-D said:
AC's are not authorization to deviate from the type certificate. You still need at least a field approval. Using the list from the AC will in most cases get the mod approved.
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Don't think so. The AC only gives reference to a list of aircraft but contains no data that would be usable for a field approval.
 
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All I'm saying is what our local FSDO told us.

A local jump company wanted to use a 182 that didn't have a modified door while their normal jump plan with the gull wing door mod was being repaired. The FSDO came to the field and they were told that the plane was listed in AC105-2C so they could pull the door off, no STC required. A permanent wind deflector would require a STC, if one was needed. (the didn't need it)

This seems to be opinion that will vary depending on which FSDO, and which agent you talk to.
 
slowjoe said:
All I'm saying is what our local FSDO told us.

A local jump company wanted to use a 182 that didn't have a modified door while their normal jump plan with the gull wing door mod was being repaired. The FSDO came to the field and they were told that the plane was listed in AC105-2C so they could pull the door off, no STC required. A permanent wind deflector would require a STC, if one was needed. (the didn't need it)

This seems to be opinion that will vary depending on which FSDO, and which agent you talk to.
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Regardless of what you heard someone say an Inspector say, AC 105-2C clearly requires that a 182's door be removed only IAW STC SA40CE or field approval on a 337 (and as a matter of policy, the FAA doesn't like to give field approvals for things for which there is an existing STC). With no X or * next to that aircraft type in the list in Appendix 2, there is no other way to do it legally. If an Inspector who knows the rules shows up to check, your local jump outfit is hosed, as "But the other Inspector said it was OK" just won't fly.
 
Ron Levy said:
Regardless of what you heard someone say an Inspector say, AC 105-2C clearly requires that a 182's door be removed only IAW STC SA40CE or field approval on a 337 (and as a matter of policy, the FAA doesn't like to give field approvals for things for which there is an existing STC). With no X or * next to that aircraft type in the list in Appendix 2, there is no other way to do it legally. If an Inspector who knows the rules shows up to check, your local jump outfit is hosed, as "But the other Inspector said it was OK" just won't fly.
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Well, that's your interpretation of the AC. X means "procedures contained in aircraft flight manual supplement" * means "procedures contained in aircraft POH" It doesn't state anything about an STC with regards to removing a door. And there is the catch. Pre-1976 aircraft do not have a POH or MEL. Therefor a door could be considered in the same category as rear seats, which can also be removed without field approval.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.
 
slowjoe said:
All I'm saying is what our local FSDO told us.

A local jump company wanted to use a 182 that didn't have a modified door while their normal jump plan with the gull wing door mod was being repaired. The FSDO came to the field and they were told that the plane was listed in AC105-2C so they could pull the door off, no STC required. A permanent wind deflector would require a STC, if one was needed. (the didn't need it)

This seems to be opinion that will vary depending on which FSDO, and which agent you talk to.
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Any time any FSDO airworthiness inspector makes a decision like that get it in writing require them to place an entry in the logs. stating they approved the modification.

The old gray beards at FSDO used to do this regularly, this is where we got the name "Field Approval" with out the entry and pilot who flys this aircraft is in violation.

the early Cessna's do not have a POH they operate on placarding as per their type certificate and data sheet, where all optional equipment is listed.

You can uninstall optional equipment by log book entry. Believe me or not, Cessna doors are not optional equipment. read the TCDS # 3A19 tell the board what optional equipment number you think is cabin doors.
 
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OBTW,,,, for those who read the TCDS and are confused as to where the optional equipment list is, there isn't any, with the exception of props and engines. 150-Vs-152 by Serial number.

even the airspeed indicators are marked per serial number.

each and every C-150 was delivered from the factory with a weight and balance sheet, listing the equipment installed. with a "0" or "R" in the block.

that is your optional equipment list. and it must be carried in the aircraft.


and doors are not listed.
 
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Tom-D said:
OBTW,,,, for those who read the TCDS and are confused as to where the optional equipment list is, there isn't any, with the exception of props and engines. 150-Vs-152 by Serial number.

even the airspeed indicators are marked per serial number.

each and every C-150 was delivered from the factory with a weight and balance sheet, listing the equipment installed. with a "0" or "R" in the block.

that is your optional equipment list. and it must be carried in the aircraft.


and doors are not listed.
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What about airplanes from CAR days?

My TCDS requires carb heat, prop, tires, and tail skid or spring.

No mention of doors...
 
slowjoe said:
Well, that's your interpretation of the AC.
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Not my "interpretation," just what it says in paragraph 23 on page 14 of the AC. Read the parts about written approval from the FSDO and compliance with Part 43 for operation of the aircraft in an altered condition. And I don't think you sell the FAA on the idea that removal of a door when not specifically authorized in the aircraft manual is only a "minor" alteration.
 
d.grimm said:
Take the screw out of the window stop on the leading edge of the window and air pressure will hold it up against the bottom of the wing. Put the screw back in when you are done, it ticks off the FBO (me) when the window is left flapping all the time.
Dave
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Yes remove the screw at the top of the spring loaded window arm, simply move the arm outside the window and the window will still close when you dont need it open. works great in a 150.
 
dmccormack said:
What about airplanes from CAR days?

My TCDS requires carb heat, prop, tires, and tail skid or spring.

No mention of doors...
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Did you read the TCDS??

Waditsay?

CAR 3 ?? aircraft built on Production certificate # 4 ?

All the items you mentioned are serial number specific. When you check for part numbers in the IPB you will see a usable on code.

No doors as a optional item? guess what..:)
 
If you folks would like to see a better example of a type certificate that has both optional items and placards see TCDS A-799 it is for the Cessna 170 (all 3 models)

It gives the optional props, optional engines, and all the optional equipment in a list. plus the required placards. and the weight and balance graph.
 
Tom-D said:
Did you read the TCDS??

Waditsay?

CAR 3 ?? aircraft built on Production certificate # 4 ?

All the items you mentioned are serial number specific. When you check for part numbers in the IPB you will see a usable on code.

No doors as a optional item? guess what..:)
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I did. It can be found here: http://www.aeronca.com/TCDS/A-702.pdf

Certification Basis Type Certificate No. 702 (CAR 4a)

There's no IPB -- only a series of factory drawings (that someone scanned into PDFs).
 
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slowjoe said:
Well, that's your interpretation of the AC. X means "procedures contained in aircraft flight manual supplement" * means "procedures contained in aircraft POH" It doesn't state anything about an STC with regards to removing a door. And there is the catch. Pre-1976 aircraft do not have a POH or MEL. Therefor a door could be considered in the same category as rear seats, which can also be removed without field approval.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.
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To remove the door takes a log book entry (maintenance log) and must be signed by an A&P. The A&P must have some sort of "data" to go by in order to do the operation and make the appropriate sign off. Data can be in the form of a STC, Form 337 Field Approval (data attached), AC43.13 or procedure from a maintenance manual or other FAA approved document.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
To remove the door takes a log book entry (maintenance log) and must be signed by an A&P. The A&P must have some sort of "data" to go by in order to do the operation and make the appropriate sign off. Data can be in the form of a STC, Form 337 Field Approval (data attached), AC43.13 or procedure from a maintenance manual or other FAA approved document.
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The AC43,13 is not approved data for any Cessna after the 170, all Cessna's are supported, and have their own manuals.

the AC 43,13 is only approved data for orphaned aircraft that have no manuals.

And it can be approved by any FAA airworthiness inspector, with out any supporting data, but they won't do that any more.
 
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Tom-D said:
The AC43,13 is not approved data for any Cessna after the 170, all Cessna's are supported, and have their own manuals.

the AC 43,13 is only approved data for orphaned aircraft that have no manuals.

And it can be approved by any FAA airworthiness inspector, with out any supporting data, but they won't do that any more.
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You clearly don't understand AC43.13 nor any of the regulations that support it. AC43.13 can be used in conjunction with an aircraft's maintenance manual.

You should really consider getting some refresher training, seriously.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You clearly don't understand AC43.13 nor any of the regulations that support it. AC43.13 can be used in conjunction with an aircraft's maintenance manual.

You should really consider getting some refresher training, seriously.
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From AC43,9- 1F

“Approval by Physical Inspection, Demonstration, Testing, etc.—One Aircraft: The alteration or repair identified herein complies with the applicable airworthiness requirements and is approved for the above described aircraft, subject to conformity inspection by a person authorized in section 43.7.” (Order 8300.10, vol. 2, ch. 1, section 2, paragraph 5d(3).)

I think you should read more ACs
 
swingwing said:
Based on your location I'm guessing your referring to Earl's Cub. I miss the Kutztown Airport:(
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Yup. 6808H. That's it in my avatar. That was really fun to fly.

But back to the discussion.

So, would removing the screw in the window spring arm be allowed by a owner/operator? What is the best/safest way to accomplish a peanut drop or flour sack drop from a 150?
 
Tom-D said:
From AC43,9- 1F

“Approval by Physical Inspection, Demonstration, Testing, etc.—One Aircraft: The alteration or repair identified herein complies with the applicable airworthiness requirements and is approved for the above described aircraft, subject to conformity inspection by a person authorized in section 43.7.” (Order 8300.10, vol. 2, ch. 1, section 2, paragraph 5d(3).)
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Right -- it must conform to approved data. Absent an STC or something in the aircraft manuals or other approved publication authorizing it, you'll need field approval of whatever it is you want to do.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You clearly don't understand AC43.13 nor any of the regulations that support it. AC43.13 can be used in conjunction with an aircraft's maintenance manual..
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the methods used in the AC 43,13-2b does not become approved data until the 337 is signed by FSDO.

It is authorized data to be used for the request for field approval on the 337.

see AC 43,210

(21) AC 43.13-1, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices—Aircraft Inspection and Repair, as amended, for repairs. This AC may be used as approved data, but only if the following three prerequisites identified on the AC’s signature page are met.
• The user determines that it is appropriate to the product being repaired.
• The user determines that it is directly applicable to the repair being made.
• The user determines that it is not contrary to manufacturers’ data

The Aircraft manuals take president over the AC, and all cessna aircraft built after the 170 have supported manuals.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Right -- it must conform to approved data. Absent an STC or something in the aircraft manuals or other approved publication authorizing it, you'll need field approval of whatever it is you want to do.
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On the money as usual.

you might add this from AC,210- para

201. What types of data may be used?
The data in your field approval request should demonstrate that the alteration to the product complies with the appropriate regulations (CARs and/or CFRs). Data can take many forms, and generally falls into one of three categories: approved data, acceptable data, and other. Approved and acceptable data are used in the substantiation of alterations or repairs to aircraft.
a. Approved Data. Approved data can be used to substantiate major alterations/repairs and can be derived from:
(1) Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS).
(2) STC data, if it specifically applies to the item being repaired/altered.
NOTE: The Federal Aviation Reauthorization Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-264), specifically section 403, STC, contains specific requirements concerning the use of STCs. It requires that the installer obtain permission from the STC holder to use the STC.
(3) Airworthiness Directives (AD).
(4) Alternate Means of Compliance (AMOC) approved by the FAA for an existing AD.
(5) Airframe, engine, and propeller manufacturers’ service manuals/documents if they are specifically FAA-approved. Many of these documents are not approved by FAA, or only specific sections are approved. Manufacturers often publish service documents such as bulletins, instructions, letters, and so forth, to inform users of product improvements or other service information. If this data is approved (rather than accepted), it will state this in the document.
(6) Appliance manufacturers’ manuals or instructions, unless specifically not approved by the Administrator, are approved for major repairs.
(7) Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) Form 337, dated prior to 10/1/55.
(8) Previously field-approved FAA Form 337s that were approved for duplication on identical aircraft make, model, and altered configuration when accomplished by the original modifier. The FAA no longer makes approvals for duplication; field approvals are now one-time approvals for specific aircraft.

the ASIs can't do this any more. but we still have many old 337s on record.
 
Tom-D said:
the methods used in the AC 43,13-2b does not become approved data until the 3337 is signed by FSDO.

It is authorized data to be used for the request for field approval on the 337.

see AC 43,210

(21) AC 43.13-1, Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices—Aircraft Inspection and Repair, as amended, for repairs. This AC may be used as approved data, but only if the following three prerequisites identified on the AC’s signature page are met.
• The user determines that it is appropriate to the product being repaired.
• The user determines that it is directly applicable to the repair being made.
• The user determines that it is not contrary to manufacturers’ data

The Aircraft manuals take president over the AC, and all cessna aircraft built after the 170 have supported manuals.
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You're contorting here trying to justify your previous assertions.

Just another reason IA's should attend mandatory refresher courses, IMO.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You're contorting here trying to justify your previous assertions.

Just another reason IA's should attend mandatory refresher courses, IMO.
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I'm using the training given to me by my FSDO. they are the ones I must please, not you.

I do about 10 337 field approvals per year plus 14 annuals last year. MY PMI visits my hangar quit often, he has no problems with my paper work.
 
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