Removing a C150 Door

Rotor&Wing said:
To remove the door takes a log book entry (maintenance log) and must be signed by an A&P. The A&P must have some sort of "data" to go by in order to do the operation and make the appropriate sign off. Data can be in the form of a STC, Form 337 Field Approval (data attached), AC43.13 or procedure from a maintenance manual or other FAA approved document.
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I keep coming back to this statement.

because it isn't true..

FAR 43.
PART 43—MAINTENANCE, PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, REBUILDING, AND ALTERATION

§ 43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

yada yada

the A&P who makes the log entry must by regulation do one OR the other maybe both.

an oil change is the best example I can think of, there is no approved data to return after maintenance for servicing, but the entry is still required.

So you just describe what you did. and sign it IAW the rest of the FAR 43.9.
 
Tom-D said:
an oil change is the best example I can think of, there is no approved data to return after maintenance for servicing, but the entry is still required.
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So how do you determine which grade of oil to put in the engine? How do you determine the correct amount of oil to add? How about the safety wire on the drain plug, how do you determine what an acceptable method of safety wire tie is? How do you determine which filter is acceptable, the correct torque of the oil filter or the drain plug, or what is you reference to removing and cleaning the oil screen or the oil suction screen?

Still say there is no data? :rolleyes:
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
So how do you determine which grade of oil to put in the engine?

How would you quote the outside temps.

How do you determine the correct amount of oil to add?
How do you quote the dipstick?

How about the safety wire on the drain plug,
Ever safety a quick drain?

how do you determine what an acceptable method of safety wire tie is?
A&P's are expected to know some thing, how would you quote that?

How do you determine which filter is acceptable, the correct torque of the oil filter or the drain plug, or what is you reference to removing and cleaning the oil screen or the oil suction screen?

Still say there is no data? :rolleyes:
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How do you enplane the "OR" in the brackets written in the FAR?

IMHO your requirement that all entries require a reference to approved data is wrong.
 
Tom-D said:
IMHO your requirement that all entries require a reference to approved data is wrong.
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If you would take the time to read my post and comprehend you will see that I stated to perform a job on an aircraft the A&P needs some sort of data to work from. You have now contorted that to read that all work needs to be referenced. You have also contorted and twisted to try to say a mechanic can do whatever he wishes without any reference to data. Not true and never has been.

It's good practice to always reference some sort of data while signing off work. When I see a "generic" signoff (no references) I begin asking questions and I expect reasonable answers. If I see a signoff that states "Removed right door from aircraft, J.Blow A&P121212121" I'm immediately going to ask to see what data was referenced. Same thing for someone who signs off an AD as "PCW" (previously complied with). There better be a reference to where the entry is that follows that signoff.

Read AC43-9C. d.) Section 91.417(a)(l)(i). Requires the maintenance record entry to include “a description
of the work performed.” The description should be in sufficient detail to permit a person
unfamiliar with the work to understand what was done, and the methods and procedures used in
doing it. When the work is extensive, this results in a voluminous record. To provide for this
contingency, the rule permits reference to technical data acceptable to the Administrator in lieu
of making the detailed entry. Manufacturer’s manuals, service letters, bulletins, work orders,
FAA AC’s, and others, which accurately describe what was done, or how it was done, may be referenced. Except for the documents mentioned, which are in common usage, referenced documents are to be made a part of the maintenance records and retained in accordance with
section 9 1.417(b).
 
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Tom-D said:
So how do you determine which grade of oil to put in the engine?
How would you quote the outside temps.

Ever read a TCDS on an engine or a manufacturers operating manual for an engine? How about a maintenance manual or a POH/AFM?

How do you determine the correct amount of oil to add?
How do you quote the dipstick?

See above reference.

How about the safety wire on the drain plug,
Ever safety a quick drain?

Yes. Most are safety wired to the oil sump, as per the ICA that comes with them.

how do you determine what an acceptable method of safety wire tie is?
A&P's are expected to know some thing, how would you quote that?

AC43.13 gives examples of proper safety wire technique. Most aircraft maintenance manuals do not refer to such items as safety wire technique because it's already covered under AC43.13.

How do you determine which filter is acceptable, the correct torque of the oil filter or the drain plug, or what is you reference to removing and cleaning the oil screen or the oil suction screen?
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:rolleyes:
 
Do you advocate that all aircraft that have generic entries are unairworthy, and that you can violate an A&P for not quoting the approved data. ?
 
So, does this oil change entry meet the letter and spirit of the law?

[FONT=&quot]IAW FAR Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C - Preventive Maintenance, changed oil on 20FEB2010, engine time 2391.2. Drained oil IAW with Lycoming O-145-B2 Owner’s Manual. Reinstalled oil drain plug, safety wired with .032 wire. Filled sump with 3.5 quarts Phillips 15-50W oil, 6 oz CamGuard (IAW CamGuard instructions). Ran engine, checked for leaks.{date/signature}
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[/FONT]

I hope so -- I already pasted the entry into the logbook. :redface:
 
dmccormack said:
So, does this oil change entry meet the letter and spirit of the law?



I hope so -- I already pasted the entry into the logbook. :redface:
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Yes, and so does every entry that says

"changed oil and filter using a ______ filled with X Qts of _________. ran engine no oil leaks noted.

----------OWNER XXXXXXXX PPL---------------

That entry meets every requirement of the AC Rotor quoted above. providing all the other requirements of 43-9,,,,,, time date etc. and the entry goes into the engine maintenance records.
 
I have to side with Tom-D on the door removal. It is considered a major alteration to the airframe and will require approved data to remove and FAA Form 337. A minor alteration only requires acceptable data and logbook entry. I do not believe Tom-D requires retraining and from the posting Tom certainly has a firm grip on the door issue.

The TCDS do very plain on this issued. I happen to teach an IA renewal course on alterations and from what I have read here several pilots and mechanics could certainly us a refresher course on the difference in major/minor and approved/acceptable data.

To clarify CFR 43.9 what is means: if you don’t list the manual reference such as chapter, section, and paragraph, then a person has to describe in detail what they did. Note this description will have to be acceptable to the Administrator. I have read what Tom-D wrote and I would find it meets the intent of the rule same as his PMI.

NOTE: I also assume that if pilots change the oil they are not cutting the safety wire on the filter or screen because it is not allowed under preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance states a pilot can replace defective safety wire. So I assume the safety wire was defective at the oil change.

Just one man’s opinion.
 
As a follow-up to my last post the FSDO will issued limitations or something like following:

OPERATING LIMITATIONS​
AIRCRAFT DOOR-REMOVED OPERATIONS​

REG. NO.
MAKE:
MODEL:
SERIAL NO:
N





This aircraft may be flown with not more than one cabin door removed, for the purpose of [ENTER TYPE OF OPERATION], provided the aircraft is operated in accordance with the applicable Federal Aviation Regulations, Appendix 2 of Advisory Circular 105-2 and the following limitations.

1. Maximum speed not to exceed any of the following:
· The approved maneuvering speed
· 70 percent maximum level flight speed
· 70 percent maximum structural cruising speed

2. Acrobatic maneuvers are not permitted.

3. Maximum yaw angle - 10 degrees, maximum bank angle - 15 degrees.

4. An FAA approved safety belt installation must be provided and worn by each occupant during takeoff and landing, and at all other times when required by the pilot-in-command in the interest of safety.

5. Smoking is not permitted with door removed.

6. A suitable guard rail or equivalent safety device must be provided for the doorway.

7. All loose articles must be tied down or stowed.

8. No baggage may be carried.

9. Operations limited to VFR operations.

10. The pilot at the controls must hold at least a private pilot certificate.

11. Operation of this aircraft for any other purpose than for which it is certificated, with a door removed, is prohibited.

12. The following placard must be placed on the instrument panel in full view of the pilot:

FOR FLIGHT WITH DOOR REMOVED, SEE AIRCRAFT​
OPERATING LIMITATIONS DATED (enter date of this letter]​


13. A copy of these limitations must be carried in the aircraft when flight operations are conducted with the door removed.

14. The pilot-in-command shall be responsible for ensuring that each operation of the aircraft under this authorization is conducted in a safe manner and pursuant to the provisions stated herein.

These Operating Limitations are a part of the Airworthiness Certificate and must be displayed in the aircraft in accordance with 14 CFR Section 91.203(b).
 
Stache said:
NOTE: I also assume that if pilots change the oil they are not cutting the safety wire on the filter or screen because it is not allowed under preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance states a pilot can replace defective safety wire. So I assume the safety wire was defective at the oil change.

Just one man’s opinion.
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To remove the oil drain plug I need to cut the existing safety wire.

Once it's cut, it needs to be replaced.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
dmccormack said:
To remove the oil drain plug I need to cut the existing safety wire.

Once it's cut, it needs to be replaced.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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To me that's a pretty lame view by the FAA. Safety wire is not that difficult,

but you must remember the ASIs that attend this board have been to OKC and had their common sense over ridden by the FAA lawyers.

It is quite common in today's information world to prove the ASIs wrong when they try to enforce their personal interpretation of the rules and standards.

.
 
Tom-D said:
To me that's a pretty lame view by the FAA. Safety wire is not that difficult,

but you must remember the ASIs that attend this board have been to OKC and had their common sense over ridden by the FAA lawyers.

It is quite common in today's information world to prove the ASIs wrong when they try to enforce their personal interpretation of the rules and standards.

.
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I wired several thousand points on the US Nuclear Weapons arsenal, and had every single one reviewed by QA.

Yeah, no big deal... :yawn:
 
dmccormack said:
I wired several thousand points on the US Nuclear Weapons arsenal, and had every single one reviewed by QA.

Yeah, no big deal... :yawn:
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When I was building the T-56 for the NAVY P-3, we had 1400 places on each engine to be safetied. we built 1 per week. 8 engine on the line from start to finish, one torn down on a Monday, and one finished each Friday.

One drain plug........Yawn :(
 
Tom-D said:
but you must remember the ASIs that attend this board have been to OKC and had their common sense over ridden by the FAA lawyers.

It is quite common in today's information world to prove the ASIs wrong when they try to enforce their personal interpretation of the rules and standards.

.
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Or just as common to prove that certain IA's have difficulty in reading comprehension. :rolleyes:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Or just as common to prove that certain IA's have difficulty in reading comprehension. :rolleyes:
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No worries,,,,,, I have my PMI on speed dial, When I get hassled I call him and allow him to set you straight. He knows the meaning of the word "or"
 
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