I just received the attached notice from my home drome, KGIF (Winter Haven, FL) about implementing a remote tower and training new controllers. I would be interested in POA opinions.
What say you?
What say you?
Remote Tower Project?
- Thread starter Half Fast
- Start date
Matt Goodrich
Pre-Flight
There is a remote tower in Fort Collins/Loveland. I honestly couldn’t tell a difference from any other towered airport. Seems like the way of the future to me!
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2019
- Messages
- 2,438
- Location
- Chicagoland
- Display Name
Display name:
The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
1) is there a delay when calling a remote tower, like when calling radio/FSS?
2) it’s interesting to see they use safety as a justification. Would it actually be safer?
2) it’s interesting to see they use safety as a justification. Would it actually be safer?
Solving problems that don’t exist?
Bartow is probably the sleepiest delta I’ve ever flown into. There’s never anyone else there. I’m not sure how much training you get with a slow airport like that.
Winter haven is a busier untowered airport, that always seems to have somebody doing something dumb, but I get the impression the average clientele would not appreciate a tower.
1. Is there any evidence that a remote tower increases safety?
2. Without radar, does a remote tower provide any benefit at all to an airport without airline ops?
I can see a possible benefit to a tower at winter haven, but I suspect things will be worse when all is said and done.
Bartow is probably the sleepiest delta I’ve ever flown into. There’s never anyone else there. I’m not sure how much training you get with a slow airport like that.
Winter haven is a busier untowered airport, that always seems to have somebody doing something dumb, but I get the impression the average clientele would not appreciate a tower.
1. Is there any evidence that a remote tower increases safety?
2. Without radar, does a remote tower provide any benefit at all to an airport without airline ops?
I can see a possible benefit to a tower at winter haven, but I suspect things will be worse when all is said and done.
Tools
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2020
- Messages
- 1,964
- Display Name
Display name:
Tools
About to get one in Selma Alabama…. The old Craig airfield.
I’ll let ya know… but by all accounts it sounds a little better than the brand new tower we have at gulf shores national that has NO SCOPE of any kind. Two pairs of binoculars is all they got.
I’ll let ya know… but by all accounts it sounds a little better than the brand new tower we have at gulf shores national that has NO SCOPE of any kind. Two pairs of binoculars is all they got.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds like a plan. There's another company that does this, can't remember their name, in some city in Georgia that starts with V. They run a few towers, one there and I think at last count, one in Austin and one in Houston. I think they may be the ones doing that thing in Selma also. They train Controllers to get a Control Tower Operators Certificate per FAR 65. When the Federal Contract Tower program started they only hired Controllers who already had CTO's. Mostly retired FAA Controllers. The other source was former Military Controllers, retired or they just got out. If they were over 30 years old, that was about the only thing they could do to continue being a Controller. FAA doesn't hire over age 30. There are a few exceptions. Anyway, as the years went by it was getting harder for them to find folk with CTO's and the we'll roll our own thing started. And seems to be growing.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
1. Remote Tower vs onsite Tower? Or vs no Tower?
2. A tower can help in getting IFR clearances and releases in a more timely manner than no tower.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oh yeah. What's your interest in this? Are you looking for a second career
No, that's my home drome and there's a meeting next week for us to ask questions and provide comments.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Tell them POA says it's go.
I haven't spoken with other residents yet so I don't know the popular sentiment. I'm a bit torn myself. Done correctly it could be a help, as the airport does get a lot of traffic and variety, everything from business jets to ultralights. It would be sorta nice to get everyone using the same runway at any given time.
Bartow is so close by that it can be challenging to enter the pattern from the south or southwest without going through their airspace, so a tower that can coordinate it might be quite helpful. In addition, Jack Brown's seaplane base is adjacent to runway 11 and there's a lot of seaplane traffic in the area, some of it NORDO.
KGIF has been repaving taxiways since last Nov and finding my way around the airport could be confusing at times due to various closures. The NOTAMs always seemed to be a few days behind and I'd start to turn down a blocked taxiway from time to time. A tower could probably help with situations like that.
My concern, though, is that the primary objective is for this to be a training facility. I'm not sure whether we'll be any safer with trainees trying to orchestrate the chaos.
Also, I'm guessing that the tower controllers would depend on our AWOS for weather info, and it's pretty poor especially concerning ceilings and cloud coverage. The laser can be pointing through a small hole in a 2000' layer of broken and the system will report a clear sky. It's sure nice when a human can apply a Mark I eyeball to confirm what the automated weather is telling him.
Yeah, that often seems to be the way things work out. As I get older, pessimism and realism seem to converge.....
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
As far as the AWOS weather thing goes, the Controllers will almost certainly be LAWRS Certified. They'll be taking Observations, and cutting the ATIS.I haven't spoken with other residents yet so I don't know the popular sentiment. I'm a bit torn myself. Done correctly it could be a help, as the airport does get a lot of traffic and variety, everything from business jets to ultralights. It would be sorta nice to get everyone using the same runway at any given time.
Bartow is so close by that it can be challenging to enter the pattern from the south or southwest without going through their airspace, so a tower that can coordinate it might be quite helpful. In addition, Jack Brown's seaplane base is adjacent to runway 11 and there's a lot of seaplane traffic in the area, some of it NORDO.
KGIF has been repaving taxiways since last Nov and finding my way around the airport could be confusing at times due to various closures. The NOTAMs always seemed to be a few days behind and I'd start to turn down a blocked taxiway from time to time. A tower could probably help with situations like that.
My concern, though, is that the primary objective is for this to be a training facility. I'm not sure whether we'll be any safer with trainees trying to orchestrate the chaos.
Also, I'm guessing that the tower controllers would depend on our AWOS for weather info, and it's pretty poor especially concerning ceilings and cloud coverage. The laser can be pointing through a small hole in a 2000' layer of broken and the system will report a clear sky. It's sure nice when a human can apply a Mark I eyeball to confirm what the automated weather is telling him.
Yeah, that often seems to be the way things work out. As I get older, pessimism and realism seem to converge.....
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7230_8B_508.pdf
Really? From the pdf you linked,
While the original FAA Order 7230.8A authorized airport or airline personnel to
supplement LAWRS in reporting ceiling and cloud height information for inclusion into the
weather observation, advancements in technology make ceiling and cloud height information
readily available through ASOS, AWOS or AWSS.
supplement LAWRS in reporting ceiling and cloud height information for inclusion into the
weather observation, advancements in technology make ceiling and cloud height information
readily available through ASOS, AWOS or AWSS.
That's the problem. AWOS sucks for ceiling information. Someone needs to actually look at the sky and decide whether AWOS has it right or not. And remote controllers won't be on site to do that.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Slappin self upside the head.
I had forgot the whole thing started out with Remote. Now I'm wondering. Maybe there could be enough camera angles to allow human observation. I dunno. Bring it up and get back to us on that? When did you say this meeting was?EDIT: Wednesday, 1430-1600. Don't look they are going out of their way to get a lot of participation. Wait, it's Florida, everyone there is retired
Last edited:
Meeting is next Wed.
Leesburg VA got one of these. Seems about as messed up as the human tower up in Frederick.
The amusing thing is the COMM block in the chart supplement that refers to the facility as "LEESBURG TOWER" with frequencies of "LEESBURG TOWER TOWER" and "LEESBURG TOWER GROUND." Am I really supposed to call them that?
The amusing thing is the COMM block in the chart supplement that refers to the facility as "LEESBURG TOWER" with frequencies of "LEESBURG TOWER TOWER" and "LEESBURG TOWER GROUND." Am I really supposed to call them that?
BTW, if the only objective were to improve safety, it would probably make more sense to close the tower at Bartow and open a new one at Winter Haven with the same staff. I'd bet Winter Haven has 10x as much traffic as Bartow, if not more.
Exactly. The objective is to make money with a school. I’m not convinced it would improve safety.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I used to fly to very remote airports here in the southwest and I would get IFR clearances on the phone, usually quicker and easier than on the radio at a busy Class B airport. Except at the airports that were so remote there was no cell service in the area...
My first question would be “will it effect ramp fees / fuel prices / hangar fees”.
I could see them raising prices since now they are providing more services. Getting paid from both ends.
I could see them raising prices since now they are providing more services. Getting paid from both ends.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well yeah. Comparing "... very remote airports here in the southwest..." to a "...busy Class B airport..."
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Got it. I had added this to my post.
EDIT: Wednesday, 1430-1600. Don't look they are going out of their way to get a lot of participation. Wait, it's Florida, everyone there is retired
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Get everyone you know to start doing that. Have them spread the word. See what happens.
Todd82
Line Up and Wait
If this is an option to get a nearby field services from relatively lightly worked ATC at neighboring facilities it seems like a great idea. Minimal expenses compared to constructing a physical tower.
For instance if DAY could start providing this as some neighboring fields like I19 and MGY that would be huge.
For instance if DAY could start providing this as some neighboring fields like I19 and MGY that would be huge.
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2019
- Messages
- 2,438
- Location
- Chicagoland
- Display Name
Display name:
The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
What happens to NORDO aircraft? Is it a remote light gun as well?
AKiss20
Line Up and Wait
I suppose I should update this.
I did attend the meeting. The meeting wasn't really to get our opinions; the purpose was to inform us about what was going on and answer our questions, and they did a pretty fair job of that.
It appears we will be getting a remote tower at Winter Haven (KGIF). This is one small part of a much larger county initiative that involves a private controller training academy, the creation of a new aeronautical high school in Winter Haven, new businesses moving to Polk County including Frequentis ( https://www.frequentis.com/ ) relocating its headquarters to the area, getting contracts to provide remote towers and controllers for airports in the Bahamas, etc., etc. Lots of new jobs and businesses.
The reason for selecting Bartow for the academy and the control facility is that Bartow (KBOW) is one of a handful of towered airports that is not federally controlled. Thus Bartow can pretty much do whatever they want as far as amount of training and numbers of controllers. I was unaware of this but it made sense once they explained it.
I asked about any cost impacts to fuel or hangar rent and I was told that is very unlikely. KGIF is funded out of the city's general fund and its funding is not directly tied to its revenues. There are quite a few other airports nearby, and raising rents or fuel prices would tend to drive people elsewhere. The KGIF manager believes he will need to remain competitive with nearby airports.
They do expect revenue to go up at KGIF, though, due to an anticipated increase in charter and business traffic. Presently, there are charter companies who are not allowed to use our untowered airport due to insurance restrictions so they're flying into Lakeland or Kissimmee. One we become a class delta, it's expected that some of them will begin using KGIF.
I also asked about Jack Brown's seaplane base, which falls within the proposed class delta. They are already in discussion with Brown's and will put a letter of agreement in place regarding coordination. I was told they have done this before with other seaplane bases. I'm not sure how that will eventually work, but it almost has to be better than what we have now, which is nothing. KGIF's pattern for 5-23 falls directly over the lake runway and the only coordination today is keeping a sharp eye out.
As presently planned, all the construction cost will be born by the academy, and the academy will pay operating expenses whenever training is happening. That will probably be 6 to 8 hours a day M-F. If the airport wants towered operations beyond those hours, the cost would fall to the city. The consensus seemed to be that there would likely be a small extension to the school-paid hours to provide tower ops in the evening, maybe on weekends, and that hours could be increased beyond that during high-traffic periods such as Sun-N-Fun.
There were a couple of objecting curmudgeons at the meeting ("Been flyin' here for 50 years and I want you to keep off my lawn!"), but overall most attendees seemed pleased. I think it will turn out to be a good thing and improve safety, even though I think they're pretty optimistic about costs and schedule.
We shall see.
I did attend the meeting. The meeting wasn't really to get our opinions; the purpose was to inform us about what was going on and answer our questions, and they did a pretty fair job of that.
It appears we will be getting a remote tower at Winter Haven (KGIF). This is one small part of a much larger county initiative that involves a private controller training academy, the creation of a new aeronautical high school in Winter Haven, new businesses moving to Polk County including Frequentis ( https://www.frequentis.com/ ) relocating its headquarters to the area, getting contracts to provide remote towers and controllers for airports in the Bahamas, etc., etc. Lots of new jobs and businesses.
The reason for selecting Bartow for the academy and the control facility is that Bartow (KBOW) is one of a handful of towered airports that is not federally controlled. Thus Bartow can pretty much do whatever they want as far as amount of training and numbers of controllers. I was unaware of this but it made sense once they explained it.
I asked about any cost impacts to fuel or hangar rent and I was told that is very unlikely. KGIF is funded out of the city's general fund and its funding is not directly tied to its revenues. There are quite a few other airports nearby, and raising rents or fuel prices would tend to drive people elsewhere. The KGIF manager believes he will need to remain competitive with nearby airports.
They do expect revenue to go up at KGIF, though, due to an anticipated increase in charter and business traffic. Presently, there are charter companies who are not allowed to use our untowered airport due to insurance restrictions so they're flying into Lakeland or Kissimmee. One we become a class delta, it's expected that some of them will begin using KGIF.
I also asked about Jack Brown's seaplane base, which falls within the proposed class delta. They are already in discussion with Brown's and will put a letter of agreement in place regarding coordination. I was told they have done this before with other seaplane bases. I'm not sure how that will eventually work, but it almost has to be better than what we have now, which is nothing. KGIF's pattern for 5-23 falls directly over the lake runway and the only coordination today is keeping a sharp eye out.
As presently planned, all the construction cost will be born by the academy, and the academy will pay operating expenses whenever training is happening. That will probably be 6 to 8 hours a day M-F. If the airport wants towered operations beyond those hours, the cost would fall to the city. The consensus seemed to be that there would likely be a small extension to the school-paid hours to provide tower ops in the evening, maybe on weekends, and that hours could be increased beyond that during high-traffic periods such as Sun-N-Fun.
There were a couple of objecting curmudgeons at the meeting ("Been flyin' here for 50 years and I want you to keep off my lawn!"), but overall most attendees seemed pleased. I think it will turn out to be a good thing and improve safety, even though I think they're pretty optimistic about costs and schedule.
We shall see.