Remember the "Short Bus"? Now the "Short Cop Tahoe"

[tawood]

So the government has no problem controlling every other aspect of our lives on a whim, but is unable to specify what wheels they want? If you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you...

You think a city or county police department can tell GM or Ford what to sell on their vehicles? They can pout, hold their breath, refuse to get off the United plane, etc, but they actually don't get to tell them.

 

[Zeldman]

Without getting into a passionate argument, I'll just say I disagree. Plenty of volunteer fire departments get by with very old, but we'll maintained equipment, which is mechanically more complex than any cop cruiser.

Yes, they do. A couple years ago I tried to buy a 1955 Dodge fire truck that was in service until 2015. All the equipment had been removed so it was just a cab and chassis. But it had the Hemi engine with only 15,000 miles on it. Most police cars with less than 15,000 miles on it will be less than a year old. And most volunteer fire departments I am familiar with do not work their vehicles 24 hours a day.

Last month a volunteer unit in a small town near here picked up a used unit that has a nozzle that goes up 30 feet or so. That has been real effective for grass fires.

 

[ircphoenix]

I'm picturing it... I'm just not picturing the steel wheels making the difference.

Without getting into a passionate argument, I'll just say I disagree. Plenty of volunteer fire departments get by with very old, but we'll maintained equipment, which is mechanically more complex than any cop cruiser.

They also don't drive their equipment as hard.

The reason departments keep getting new chargers is because theyre cheaper than Explorers.... But they last about 30,000 miles at best before they start becoming prohibitively expensive to maintain. Prime example of pennywise, pound foolish at the executive level.

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[Matthew]

A college buddy, way back in the mid-80s, bought a former cop car. I think it was a Crown Vic. He was pretty proud of it, then I climbed into the driver's seat and nearly hit the floor. He said, "Well, yeah, that seat's had a fat-assed cop sitting in it 24 hrs a day for the last few years."

I don't remember how many years were on it, but it had been used pretty hard.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

They also don't drive their equipment as hard.

The reason departments keep getting new chargers is because theyre cheaper than Explorers.... But they last about 30,000 miles at best before they start becoming prohibitively expensive to maintain. Prime example of pennywise, pound foolish at the executive level.

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I drive the dog urine out of my truck. Currently at 315k miles. It's a 2005.

I maintain it well, preventatively, and as needed with an open budget. I do it all myself after work.

I run the numbers before any repair to make sure that I would not be better off, cost-wise, to be looking at a new or newer truck. Maintaining my current truck wins by a mile even when faced with expensive repairs. I have never been down more than a week, and that was working on replacing the heads and head gaskets everyday when I got off work, a job that requires pulling the cab off of my truck.

A professional mechanic would have had that job done in one day, possibly two. I would sure like to think that a municipality employs a mechanic or three, no?

Based on cost, I have a hard time buying any argument presented. Based on "need" or reliability, it becomes a less concrete-facts kind of argument and one more based on emotion or opinion, so it is probably not one worth having.

Let me edit to add that I understand you partially agree based on buying a better quality vehicle up front versus saving some money and having to replace it, but I would make the argument that you should not need to replace either version near as frequently as it appears most departments do.

 

[ircphoenix]

I drive the dog urine out of my truck. Currently at 315k miles. It's a 2005.

I maintain it well, preventatively, and as needed with an open budget. I do it all myself after work.

I run the numbers before any repair to make sure that I would not be better off, cost-wise, to be looking at a new or newer truck. Maintaining my current truck wins by a mile even when faced with expensive repairs. I have never been down more than a week, and that was working on replacing the heads and head gaskets everyday when I got off work, a job that requires pulling the cab off of my truck.

A professional mechanic would have had that job done in one day, possibly two. I would sure like to think that a municipality employs a mechanic or three, no?

Based on cost, I have a hard time buying any argument presented. Based on "need" or reliability, it becomes a less concrete-facts kind of argument and one more based on emotion or opinion, so it is probably not one worth having.

Let me edit to add that I understand you partially agree based on buying a better quality vehicle up front versus saving some money and having to replace it, but I would make the argument that you should not need to replace either version near as frequently as it appears most departments do.

And how often do "most departments" replace their vehicles? And what's the cost delta between continuously investing in more labor intensive/pricey repairs on older vehicles when you have new cars that take an hour or two to service? When you have a fleet of 100 vehicles, 10 of them are due for minor service and 10 of them need engine rebuilds... for every day you're working on the engine rebuild, you're missing out on working on 4 other vehicles that day. And it isn't like the other 80 cars won't be due for minor service tomorrow or the next day, because they're getting driven too. Gross oversimplification but it serves to illustrate the point.

In a past life I had direct experience managing a vehicle fleet for a large agency. Our age limit on vehicles was a soft cap at 115,000 miles. Anything major like a transmission or an engine killed the car if it was in excess of or within a couple thousand miles of 115,000 miles. The cars on average get driven about 3,500 city miles (as opposed to freeway miles) a month, which means the cars are mileaged out after 3 years. And I promise you that police are harder on their cars than you could ever be on your personal truck. Long periods at idle, then hammering down on the throttle, high speed cornering, dips, etc. Cop cars get brutalized.

Now when it comes to Chargers.... 7,000 miles and a rear main seal leak? 30,000 and 3 transmissions? GARBAGE. Crappy rear visibility... no room inside either in the front seat and a LAUGHABLE rear seat... pffft. Hitting your hand on the spotlight handle every time you turn the wheel? Garbage garbage garbage. They look good but they're mechanically terrible.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

Fair enough... I can only base it on what I see, which may not be a fair or accurate representation of things. (I did do a project across the street from a police car/truck/boat upfitter, so I got to see what local departments were dropping off brand new vehicles to have the backseats turned into molded plastic, strobes put everywhere, etc.)

Just sorta burns some folks rear end when they work pretty hard and have a much older car than the cop writing them a ticket.

One point I'll disagree on: you'd have to ride a mile in the [brake] shoes of the 42' gooseneck behind my truck before you could say whether I'm hard on my truck or not.

 

[ircphoenix]

Fair enough... I can only base it on what I see, which may not be a fair or accurate representation of things.

Just sorta burns some folks rear end when they work pretty hard and have a much older car than the cop writing them a ticket.

One point I'll disagree on: you'd have to ride a mile in the [brake] shoes of the 42' gooseneck behind my truck before you could say whether I'm hard on my truck or not.

Well from the outside looking in, you're seeing a brand new police car every 3 years. You're not seeing or hearing the brakes, rotors, hubs, transmissions, axles, suspension and all the other things that have at least 115,000 miles on them. But that's from my perspective inside a large agency, not one of the small municipalities.

Personally I think we should outfit a V6 Camry as a patrol car, put it through the pursuit rating process with the MSP, then run the dog snot out of it to see how it works out. The fact that every department in the country is beholden to the big three drives me NUTS.

And I literally lol'd at your last point. Point well made.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I think that cop was racing his other cop buddy in reverse and lost it.

Boredom and a vehicle you don't own... Not sure I'd do different.

That said, in 100% agreement with the why brand new cars thing. I live in one of the poorer counties in Virginia, but the sheriff's have '14-'17 chargers. All with the actual alloy rims.

I've seen the fleet pricing on our company trucks, and it's attractive, but I know there isn't a $0 upgrade from black steelies to those wheels. What's the justification? More broadly, what's the justification for new cars at all every 3 years?

The sheriff's office I worked for would give the new cars to criminal patrol. After 3-4 years in service they were bumped to civil division for a year or so and then sold off.....Unless they had a rookie moving onto criminal patrol.. Then it was their first car. I can tell you that driving a 5 year old patrol car is a bad idea. That thing died on the interstate when I was responding to a domestic disturbance with shots fired reported by the neighbors. It had over 300K miles on it and had been maintained impeccably but it was not up to the demands of patrol duty. As far as the allow rims, if they did pay extra to get them I would be asking why as a taxpayer. Our cars were functional and purchased as cheaply as possible. No frills.

 

[Zeldman]

Personally I think we should outfit a V6 Camry as a patrol car, put it through the pursuit rating process with the MSP, then run the dog snot out of it to see how it works out. The fact that every department in the country is beholden to the big three drives me NUTS.

And I literally lol'd at your last point. Point well made.

My best friend was a detective for the sheriffs office. He was given a Ford Taurus, V6. It always had problems and it did not last, and he did not do pursuits. They had plenty of non big 3 unmarked cars used for investigations. The best one was a Jag picked up in a drug bust. He would not drive it because he was afraid the former owners would want to get even. But for the others, the front wheel drives were the weak point and would just not hold up to normal duty.

 

[kyleb]

My best friend was a detective for the sheriffs office. He was given a Ford Taurus, V6. It always had problems and it did not last, and he did not do pursuits. They had plenty of non big 3 unmarked cars used for investigations. The best one was a Jag picked up in a drug bust. He would not drive it because he was afraid the former owners would want to get even. But for the others, the front wheel drives were the weak point and would just not hold up to normal duty.

That kind of goes back to the discussion about being tied to the Big 3. For detectives, buy Accords or Camrys. Take care of 'em and they will go a quarter million miles with normal maintenance. OTOH, company cars generally get abused. You don't pay for the gas or the maintenance, so why not stomp the gas pedal when the steering is all the way over (a great way to abuse CV joints)? Why coast to a stop when you can accelerate all the way until you have to nail the brakes? After all, those aren't your tires, pads, or rotors, and you're not buying the gas...

 

[Zeldman]

On the other hand, there was a guy working in the highway department. In 1969 he was given a new Impala. He drove it for 25 years until he retired. But he did not do pursuits or off road racing....

I was sure wishing it was a SS427, or even a big block Impala, but alas, just a 350....

A person could destroy a D10 cat if they really wanted to, or drive a Yugo for a million miles. Just depends on how it is treated. Police work is severe duty for cars so the light duty ones wear out really quick.

 

[James331]

Well from the outside looking in, you're seeing a brand new police car every 3 years. You're not seeing or hearing the brakes, rotors, hubs, transmissions, axles, suspension and all the other things that have at least 115,000 miles on them. But that's from my perspective inside a large agency, not one of the small municipalities.

Personally I think we should outfit a V6 Camry as a patrol car, put it through the pursuit rating process with the MSP, then run the dog snot out of it to see how it works out. The fact that every department in the country is beholden to the big three drives me NUTS.

And I literally lol'd at your last point. Point well made.

Or maybe have cops focus on real crime and not revenue generation, that would really cut down on the abuse these cars get, infact if we did that, we could probable over half our police force, that'd same some $$$

 

[ircphoenix]

Or maybe have cops focus on real crime and not revenue generation, that would really cut down on the abuse these cars get, infact if we did that, we could probable over half our police force, that'd same some $$$

Our department sees very little of the revenue we "generate." The problem with being a large police agency. Any revenue that is generated goes to the state and the courts. You have a bone to pick with the state and the courts.

The traffic enforcement that we do is generally tied to areas with high rates of traffic collisions. There's a certain ratio of citations to fatal traffic collisions that our head traffic weenies want to see, because high enforcement in targeted areas tends to decrease hazardous behaviors in those areas. Imagine that.

 

[James331]

Our department sees very little of the revenue we "generate." The problem with being a large police agency. Any revenue that is generated goes to the state and the courts. You have a bone to pick with the state and the courts.

The traffic enforcement that we do is generally tied to areas with high rates of traffic collisions. There's a certain ratio of citations to fatal traffic collisions that our head traffic weenies want to see, because high enforcement in targeted areas tends to decrease hazardous behaviors in those areas. Imagine that.

However most of the real traffic dangers are from lower than natural speed limits, besides speed limits can be better set via how a road is setup, vs some theif cop hiding behind a bush.

I've seen cops create a far larger hazard "catching speeders" like folks just going 10 over on a huge freeway and not doing anything unsafe, than the "speeders" them selves. Pull someone over for going 10 over, park on the side of a freeway to write a $200 ticket and get rear ended...play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[SCCutler]

However most of the real traffic dangers are from lower than natural speed limits, besides speed limits can be better set via how a road is setup, vs some theif cop hiding behind a bush.

I've seen cops create a far larger hazard "catching speeders" like folks just going 10 over on a huge freeway and not doing anything unsafe, than the "speeders" them selves. Pull someone over for going 10 over, park on the side of a freeway to write a $200 ticket and get rear ended...play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

That video is a big, steaming pile of AWESOME!

Ludicrous speed limits and mouth-breathing left lane hogs are a big part of the reason I prefer flying to driving, even when it might not save me much time.

 

[ircphoenix]

However most of the real traffic dangers are from lower than natural speed limits, besides speed limits can be better set via how a road is setup, vs some theif cop hiding behind a bush.

I've seen cops create a far larger hazard "catching speeders" like folks just going 10 over on a huge freeway and not doing anything unsafe, than the "speeders" them selves. Pull someone over for going 10 over, park on the side of a freeway to write a $200 ticket and get rear ended...play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

So now it sounds like you have a beef with cities and traffic engineers. Cops don't set speed limits either.

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[Matthew]

Traffic engineering and unintended consequences: There was a big construction project near where I work. New on and off ramps and a new overpass were added. There were two traffic signals installed. The problem was that the two signals are very close to each other, maybe 5-10 car lengths away and it's very common that traffic backs up between them. And the first signal was mounted in such a way that the stop line location meant that the light signal was very nearly out of sight above your windshield when you were stopped. The result was that the drivers of the first couple cars would focus on the next signal and go when THAT light turned green. This week I noticed that the second signal has been modified by aiming it down and now has some type of Fresnel lens on it so it's not visible anymore fom the first signal location.

 

[Zeldman]

Or maybe have cops focus on real crime and not revenue generation, that would really cut down on the abuse these cars get, infact if we did that, we could probable over half our police force, that'd same some $$$

At one time, I don't know if it is still true, but in Texas the agency writing the ticket only got 2 bucks from that ticket. Didn't generate much revenue for that agency. However, it did bankrupt some small agencies that all they did was write tickets.

 

[James331]

So now it sounds like you have a beef with cities and traffic engineers. Cops don't set speed limits either.

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Guess you didn't watch the video

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

So now it sounds like you have a beef with cities and traffic engineers. Cops don't set speed limits either.

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Maybe not where you're at, but there is often collusion.

When is the percentage of a municipality's revenue (and the cop's paychecks) funded by traffic enforcement just too much? At some point it is a blatant revenue scheme and not safety related.

The tiny town of Campo near the Oklahoma border collects a whopping 93 percent of its funding from traffic tickets.

Mountain View in the Denver metro area derives 53 percent of its revenue from tickets, and Morrison collects 52 percent.

Those numbers are too high.

Mountain View is home to only 518 people and encompasses only six blocks.

Yet, in 2013, the $621,099 raised in citation revenue paid for more than half of the town’s budget. Many of those tickets were for seat belt violations and for drivers having an obstructed view, such as anything hanging from a rearview mirror.

The town of Morrison, with 428 people, has a police department of more than 20 officers. Traffic fines in 2013 brought in more than $1.15 million — 52 percent of its budget. And the vast majority of tickets are issued at a single spot, according to 9News,“about four miles from the main part of town … just within the city limits” on Highway 285.​

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/05/15/limit-cities-reliance-on-revenue-from-traffic-fines/

 

[ircphoenix]

Guess you didn't watch the video

I didn't. Mostly because I speak from over a decade of experience in a large metropolitan police force as opposed to hours of YouTube searching for videos which reinforce my preconceived beliefs that the gubmint is ebil.

 

[ircphoenix]

Maybe not where you're at, but there is often collusion.

When is the percentage of a municipality's revenue (and the cop's paychecks) funded by traffic enforcement just too much? At some point it is a blatant revenue scheme and not safety related.

The tiny town of Campo near the Oklahoma border collects a whopping 93 percent of its funding from traffic tickets.

Mountain View in the Denver metro area derives 53 percent of its revenue from tickets, and Morrison collects 52 percent.

Those numbers are too high.

Mountain View is home to only 518 people and encompasses only six blocks.

Yet, in 2013, the $621,099 raised in citation revenue paid for more than half of the town’s budget. Many of those tickets were for seat belt violations and for drivers having an obstructed view, such as anything hanging from a rearview mirror.

The town of Morrison, with 428 people, has a police department of more than 20 officers. Traffic fines in 2013 brought in more than $1.15 million — 52 percent of its budget. And the vast majority of tickets are issued at a single spot, according to 9News,“about four miles from the main part of town … just within the city limits” on Highway 285.​

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/05/15/limit-cities-reliance-on-revenue-from-traffic-fines/

I'm sure that happens. But I'm speaking from my perspective. I'm not speaking for the small rural agencies that get zero property tax revenue and use traffic enforcement for revenue.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I'm sure that happens. But I'm speaking from my perspective. I'm not speaking for the small rural agencies that get zero property tax revenue and use traffic enforcement for revenue.

Just reminding you that it does, and the effect on people and insurance rates is real. I've lived in one of those towns before.

And don't even get me started on the farce called a "mayor's court".

 

[James331]

I didn't. Mostly because I speak from over a decade of experience in a large metropolitan police force as opposed to hours of YouTube searching for videos which reinforce my preconceived beliefs that the gubmint is ebil.

So based on your indoctrination and group identity you can not question das order yeah??

 

[tawood]

So based on your indoctrination and group identity you can not question das order yeah??

Question the order? What if I, unlike you, don't have a problem with the order?

 

[denverpilot]

Picture this: Your family is being assaulted. Police are called. They rush to the scene in their 15 year old patrol cars that have seen severe duty every day of their lives. The cars break down 1 mile from your house.

Not saying a new car can't break down, but I want the police, and fire and ambulance to not break down when needed.

Honestly, I'm so far from any patrolling officers most of the time, if you bother sending anyone, just send the Coroner. One way or the other. It'll
be over with, 30 minutes before anyone arrives.

So no need for the spiffy cars, for the most part.

And the volunteer FD drives their own vehicles none of which is anything new, most well maintained 10+ year old pickup trucks. And the actual fire trucks are ancient hand me downs. But they *maintain* them. And manage to do their job.

But I bet if we vote in a bond someday to pay the FD, it'll include the best of the best of gear.

That's the game of course. When it's volunteer/servant based, it's always "what can you do the job and get by with".

Once it's "fully taxpayer funded" it's bar the door, time for big debt! Can't have those folks not working with the best possible stuff!

 

[ejensen]

Picture this: Your family is being assaulted. Police are called. They rush to the scene in their 15 year old patrol cars that have seen severe duty every day of their lives. The cars break down 1 mile from your house.

Not saying a new car can't break down, but I want the police, and fire and ambulance to not break down when needed.

Agree they need good rides. I think they are way overboard on military grade vehicles and hardware.

 

[ejensen]

I worked for the Federal Government. Got some new rigs in and had trouble with a door window. Took off the interior panel and saw written on the door 'Save for GSA'

 

[Zeldman]

Honestly, I'm so far from any patrolling officers most of the time, if you bother sending anyone, just send the Coroner. One way or the other. It'll
be over with, 30 minutes before anyone arrives.

So no need for the spiffy cars, for the most part.

And the volunteer FD drives their own vehicles none of which is anything new, most well maintained 10+ year old pickup trucks. And the actual fire trucks are ancient hand me downs. But they *maintain* them. And manage to do their job.

But I bet if we vote in a bond someday to pay the FD, it'll include the best of the best of gear.

That's the game of course. When it's volunteer/servant based, it's always "what can you do the job and get by with".

Once it's "fully taxpayer funded" it's bar the door, time for big debt! Can't have those folks not working with the best possible stuff!

Me too. Here where I live in New Mexico is more remote than where I was living last summer in Alaska.

 

[AggieMike88]

I was awarded this 2014 Tahoe from Copart Fort Worth. Also a police version... 80.0k on the clock, winning bid less than $2,500

 

[denverpilot]

I was awarded this 2014 Tahoe from Copart Fort Worth. Also a police version... 80.0k on the clock, winning bid less than $2,500

Newer than mine! LOL

Just think of how many nice folks have puked or bled in that back seat. Mmmmm. Police sales...

 

[Zeldman]

I was awarded this 2014 Tahoe from Copart Fort Worth. Also a police version... 80.0k on the clock, winning bid less than $2,500

Does it still run..??

 

[AggieMike88]

Does it still run..??

Yes. Bought during the "Run and Drive" part of the auction

 

[AggieMike88]

Purchased because I have demand for the 5.3L engine (GM Code LMG)... Brings $1650+$300 core. Transmission brings $1100+200 core. Rear Axle is $1300 + $200 core.

Doors, Lid, rear bumper won't sell as rapidly as those three, but should bring $3500 once they all sell. Smaller "fluff" items, another $800-1000. Core/scrap/crush, $500

((now cue the ghost of Henning who would claim he could 5x that amount as well as 30 gallons of red sticky liquid from a very small turnip))

 

[Clark1961]

Purchased because I have demand for the 5.3L engine (GM Code LMG)... Brings $1650+$300 core. Transmission brings $1100+200 core. Rear Axle is $1300 + $200 core.

Doors, Lid, rear bumper won't sell as rapidly as those three, but should bring $3500 once they all sell. Smaller "fluff" items, another $800-1000. Core/scrap/crush, $500

((now cue the ghost of Henning who would claim he could 5x that amount as well as 30 gallons of red sticky liquid from a very small turnip))

Damn, should pay 5x that....I had a text from henning saturday last.

 

[Zeldman]

Purchased because I have demand for the 5.3L engine (GM Code LMG)... Brings $1650+$300 core. Transmission brings $1100+200 core. Rear Axle is $1300 + $200 core.

Shoot. Sorta looking for a 6.2 for my 70 C-10. But not looking as serious as what you probably get for a LS3.

 

[AggieMike88]

Shoot. Sorta looking for a 6.2 for my 70 C-10. But not looking as serious as what you probably get for a LS3.

PM me with specs, what vehicle you do like to get it out of, budget, etc. And your contact details... I'll see what can be done.

 

[AggieMike88]

I also have an 8.1L available. And a 454 out an 85 Suburban.