In other words, I could be flying blind in VFR conditions.
Relying on your GPS in Vegas might make you stay in Vegas
- Thread starter mikea
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In other words, I could be flying blind in VFR conditions.
gprellwitz
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Grant Prellwitz
Yeah, and when they're done testing there and implement the proposed 40,000 towers nationwide, you'll be flying blind in IMC, too!In other words, I could be flying blind in VFR conditions.
But wait, they'll tell you how they're staying within their assigned spectrum and that it's your responsibility as a GPS user to purchase whatever is needed to shield your device from nearby signals!
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
That is exactly the situation, and it always was user's responsibility. The only problem is, the GPS industry was flooding the market with el-cheapo low-performance receivers for decades, and by now even the most expensive aviation GPSes use chipsets that can pick up interference even from best-behaving transmitters in neighbouring bands.
Yeah, but how will I know where my airport is?
(I had my handheld fail on takeoff once when the antenna connector came loose only a few miles out. I had decided to go back (Don't remember why. It wasn't because the GPS was out. I think I was just puttering anyway.) and I was actually nervous about finding my way back visually.
I told the guys in the hangar I HAD TO FLY BLIND!
zaitcev
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Buy a VOR receiver if you are not familiar with the terrain. BTW, Sporty's can probably help. They already have a NAV/COM.
Funnily enough, this Saturday I ventured out into what's called "West Kansas" sometimes, when going around the solid weather at COS. I really felt so lost. Sure, I can put my finger on the airway I'm tracking and watch the needle, it's not a problem. But I am so used to recognizing every hillcock's shape right away, and plains look downright inhospitable by comparison. It's like flying over ocean.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sorry, not "exactly" the same situation. The spectrum in question (immediately adjacent to GPS L1) was allocated by the FCC for space based transmissions only. LightSquared bought that spectrum then managed to convince the FCC to violate their own requirements.
mcarlini
Pre-Flight
One of the airline pilots that I work with says that I shouldn't even be using a GPS at my level. "Learn how to FLY," he says, and I kind of agree with him. Of course the GPS that I have is a sweet little device and adds a great sense of situational awareness, but sometimes I wonder if, in the next 20 years, every airplane has some sort of gps, and the older methods of navigation are forgotten. I can find it hard to resist using my GPS as a primary navigation tool when there are no airways or VOR radials to navigate.
PilotAlan
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PilotAlan
It'll be even harder once the FAA has its way and shuts down most the VORs.
Good thing we have a reliable and independent backup in the form of LORAN. Oh, wait.......
zaitcev
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It's ok, soon we'll have verrrry independent backups in the forms of GLONASS, Beidou, and GALILEO.
Jim Logajan
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.
I believe the FCC claims that "extensive terrestrial operations have been anticipated in the L-band for at least 8 years." As I understand it, their stance is that these higher power transmissions in nearby frequencies shouldn't have come as such a surprise to GPS receiver manufacturers.
The problem is not the use of cheap chip sets, but the filter optimization. You have to balance low signal distortion in-band and high noise suppression out-of-band. The two are exclusive.
All GPS receiver are optimized under the assumption that the adjacent band is also a satellite downlink band (i.e. low signal levels). Well, the FCC just changed that design criterion. While it might be possible to redesign and retrofit the filters for all GPS units, this will certainly degrade the GPS performance. And I am not even talking about the cost to retrofit the order 1 billion receivers in operation today...
BillTIZ
Final Approach
Yeah, but how will I know where my airport is?
(I had my handheld fail on takeoff once when the antenna connector came loose only a few miles out. I had decided to go back (Don't remember why. It wasn't because the GPS was out. I think I was just puttering anyway.) and I was actually nervous about finding my way back visually.
What ever happend to chart reading, Compass, Clock an DR?
Canceled a flight because a handheld GPS antenna came loose?
Give me a break..
wsuffa
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zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
Is Beidou in L-band? Both GLONASS and Galileo are. If not then, maybe it is!It's all a Chinese plot.....
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Yeah, but how will I know where my airport is?
(I had my handheld fail on takeoff once when the antenna connector came loose only a few miles out. I had decided to go back (Don't remember why. It wasn't because the GPS was out. I think I was just puttering anyway.) and I was actually nervous about finding my way back visually.
I hope you aren't serious...
ScottM
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iBazinga!
This is a pretty big deal and there is a lot of daily communications flying about LightSquared and their system. This was one of the things that was brought to my attention today.
http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless..../2011-05-19?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal
http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless..../2011-05-19?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal
The DoD has also spoken up and sent letters into the FCC speaking of their concerns about the LS system and the GPS issues. I really don't think that the LightSquared system is going to make it to full deployment. The FCC is going to pull the rug out from under them.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
It was a good thing you had filed a flight plan. I am pretty sure that you very nearly bit the big one there!Yeah, but how will I know where my airport is?
(I had my handheld fail on takeoff once when the antenna connector came loose only a few miles out. I had decided to go back (Don't remember why. It wasn't because the GPS was out. I think I was just puttering anyway.) and I was actually nervous about finding my way back visually.
gprellwitz
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Grant Prellwitz
That's certainly my hope. They're "saying" that they aren't going to use the spectrum near the GPS bands at the full power they've been authorized at, but I believe that for about as long as it takes them to decide that they need additional bandwidth.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Same promises from Nextel until they had trashed the Public Safety bands adjacent to them so badly that the FCC had to completely re-band and move Public Safety to 700 MHz as part of "narrow-banding".
Of course, right around that time Governments in general ran out of money, so there's a mish-mash of VHF, UHF, 800 MHz in Public Safety and they've invested way too much in radios and infrastructure to move. Total mess, partly thanks to Nextel's promises.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Letter from 33 Senators to the FCC about LightSquared.Good reading.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Doesn't work in Northern Michigan either.
gil_mor
Pre-takeoff checklist
Was flying in Northern Az last Saturday.
It took my hand-held quite a while to get good reception, but it was fine after that.
I'm a pretty new pilot, and mainly use the GPS to make sure I'm where I think I am.
When announcing position - it feels good to confirm it with GPS.
It took my hand-held quite a while to get good reception, but it was fine after that.
I'm a pretty new pilot, and mainly use the GPS to make sure I'm where I think I am.
When announcing position - it feels good to confirm it with GPS.
Wasn't it in "Casino" where they went on the jet the Chinese Whale who won big was leaving on and told him, "Sorry. The Jet has a problem, one of those things, but we'll comp your stay tonight...." and of course got all of their money back plus a lot more.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
LOL
Interestingly enough over the past couple of days the former Michigan Speaker of the House, the Lt. Gov and a couple of others have all submitted letters in support of LightSquared proposal. Might be some sort of plan to get broadband coverage in the UP
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Also just got a letter that a couple of State Senators in AZ submitted in support of LightSquared.
Anyone in AZ or Michigan, you might want to contact these guys and let them know how you feel, support or otherwise.
Anyone in AZ or Michigan, you might want to contact these guys and let them know how you feel, support or otherwise.
Gsim Aviation
Pre-Flight
Why not use what we have that helps fly better and safe. There is no reason not to use a GPS if you have it, not using it is like putting a fire out by blowing on it while at the same time you have a fire extenguesher at hand. We now have cars to drive to work, I use it and I still can ride a horse, the car is far better to use than a horse.
Bottom line, use the best tech you have and learn to use it well.
Land based NAV will all be turned off soon, the most of the ADF's and some Markers are all being removed now.
Why use a ADF if you have a map that shows where you are, knowing where you are is what is importent.
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Jaybird180
Final Approach
Your points above a valid, but I would like to add that ADF is used in conjunction with a map, not in place of - at least that's what my MSFS experience suggests (LOL).
Gsim Aviation
Pre-Flight
I was refurring to a moving map. With a moving map display there is no need for a ADF, just look at the moving map (MFD)of where that fix is.
Same goes for a auto pilot, if you have a good working AP then I would never fly a IMC approach single pilot with out using it. That would be like telling a Co Pilot to not help you with flying the plane and stay home. Now I do recomend to had fly and keep current by hand flying, do that with a safety pilot and or under the hood, that is very importent. No reason to make things harder to do then they have to be, use all the tools in the tool box.
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jesse
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I would. As would most pilots.
Gary F
Final Approach
Can you elaborate? What exactly does not work down there?
Another depressing report:
A government/industry panel will warn the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in a 3 June report that the expected interference from a new 4G ancillary terrestrial broadband network will cause "complete loss" of GPS receiver functionality.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/27/357268/experts-gps-at-risk-with-lightsquared-4g.html
The only precision approach to many runways is a GPS approach and I am not enthusiastic about flying airways after flying direct for so long. Hopefully the lightsquared plan will be canned. Do people really need to watch streaming video on handheld devices or what is the big advantage of the new network?
tdager
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LittleIronPilot
What ever happend to chart reading, Compass, Clock an DR?
Canceled a flight because a handheld GPS antenna came loose?
Give me a break..
Nothing...it is still there, but some people just do not want to fly that way if the do not HAVE to.
I, for one, have zero interest in DR flying, it just is not fun "to me". Does not make me wrong, or you right if you do, it is just differing likes and dislikes.
Do you rag on people for driving a newer car with built in GPS and airbags, ABS, etc. I mean REAL drivers should be driving 1950 cars ya know....I mean the driver is ALL there is, the vehicle means nothing.
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
Okay, with land based navigation going by the wayside, if GPS signal is unreliable, what will the airways be based upon? IMC flying will be rather difficult without reliable GPS, in the absence of a VOR. VOR's are easy to work with, but as they fail, I see more and more not being repaired.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
Me thinks you missed the point. The OP canceled a simple VFR flight because of a GPS failure. Ridiculous, just revert to chart, compass and clock.
Would you cancel that trip home to Mom's because the car GPS is out?
I use the GPS when the aircraft I rent have them, but I don't cancel if the GPS fails or if the aircraft of the day does not have one.
Better yet, let me grab my sextant and star charts for backup.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
FYI:
You should write your Representative to Congress and ask them to support the defense authorization bill, H.R. 1540. Specifically the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012. The act contains an amendment that prohibits the FCC from lifting the "no commercial service" condition imposed on LightSquared until “the Commission has resolved concerns of wide-spread harmful interference by such commercial terrestrial operations to the Global Positioning System devices of the Department of Defense.” In addition, the amended bill requires the Commission to make the final Working Group report available prior to permitting operation and provide interested parties with an opportunity to comment. The text of the amendment and related discussion can be found in the attached Congressional Record excerpt on pp. H3720-21.
The time to act is short.
You should write your Representative to Congress and ask them to support the defense authorization bill, H.R. 1540. Specifically the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012. The act contains an amendment that prohibits the FCC from lifting the "no commercial service" condition imposed on LightSquared until “the Commission has resolved concerns of wide-spread harmful interference by such commercial terrestrial operations to the Global Positioning System devices of the Department of Defense.” In addition, the amended bill requires the Commission to make the final Working Group report available prior to permitting operation and provide interested parties with an opportunity to comment. The text of the amendment and related discussion can be found in the attached Congressional Record excerpt on pp. H3720-21.
The time to act is short.
What ever happend to chart reading, Compass, Clock an DR?
Canceled a flight because a handheld GPS antenna came loose?
Give me a break..
They are every bit as inefficient as they ever were.
I learned all that, celestial as well, anymore, I'll have a backup GPS guidance system. If it's not available, well, it's not available. If it is available, I'll have it.
WHICH OP? I never sad that. It was a joke. Most here got it. My hangar mates got it. You went with "today's pilots don't know ded reckoning."
That particular flight wasn't going anywhere in the first place.
For the record I purposely didn't buy my GPS until after I had the PPL in my pocket. I made more solo XC's for greater distances and time than many of today's minimum-hour ATPs did because I owned the plane.
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BillTIZ
Final Approach
Sure Mike, I got your post... But LittleIronPilot did not seem to get my tongue-in-cheek reply and took me seriously.
And I'm not kidding about celestial navigation from an airplane. Before the days of INS or GPS. I'm still young but I am old enough to have used a sextant while flying.
And I'm not kidding about celestial navigation from an airplane. Before the days of INS or GPS. I'm still young but I am old enough to have used a sextant while flying.
Gary F
Final Approach
It's looking worse for LightSquared. Many people could probably care less if GA is affected by loss of GPS navigation but interfering with emergency services is another issue. A lot of people have become dependent on GPS for ground navigation and would not tolerate loss of this important service.