Relying on your GPS in Vegas might make you stay in Vegas

Gary F said:
It's looking worse for LightSquared. Many people could probably care less if GA is affected by loss of GPS navigation but interfering with emergency services is another issue. A lot of people have become dependent on GPS for ground navigation and would not tolerate loss of this important service.
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That would be great except that for emergency services agencies the view point in that letter is not the only view.

I attach a letter from the Clark Co, KY. Shrriff speaking to the FCC in favor of LightSquared.

There has been a huge influx of support for LightSquared to the FCC this past week. Mostly it has been coming from AZ, NV, MI and KY but also from some other places as well. The Deere Company has written about their concerns and requests the FCC to hold off on granting the commercial authority to LightSquared unless they can prove no interference. I have not seen a peep out of AOPA, NBAA, EAA, etc.

The testing that happened in LV recently has not yielded any public results. Nor do I expect there them to be released before 15 June. This is far from over and given the FCC's propensity to approve commercial systems regardless of interference, see BPL, this will happen and then need to be cleaned up afterwords at a huge cost to us. There is simply billions of dollars to be made here.
 

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ScottM said:
That would be great except that for emergency services agencies the view point in that letter is not the only view.

I attach a letter from the Clark Co, KY. Shrriff speaking to the FCC in favor of LightSquared.

There has been a huge influx of support for LightSquared to the FCC this past week. Mostly it has been coming from AZ, NV, MI and KY but also from some other places as well. The Deere Company has written about their concerns and requests the FCC to hold off on granting the commercial authority to LightSquared unless they can prove no interference. I have not seen a peep out of AOPA, NBAA, EAA, etc.

The testing that happened in LV recently has not yielded any public results. Nor do I expect there them to be released before 15 June. This is far from over and given the FCC's propensity to approve commercial systems regardless of interference, see BPL, this will happen and then need to be cleaned up afterwords at a huge cost to us. There is simply billions of dollars to be made here.
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I wonder what he means by amost-gratis. It appears that LightSquared has been engaged in a preemptive PR campaign. I agree that first responders will benefit from wireless communications but it won't do much good if they can't find the victims. LightSquared is not the only solution to wireless communications but GPS is absolutely essential to emergency services. Reading between the lines, I suspect that the good Sheriff is not technically sophisticated and has probably been unduly influenced by LightSquared treating him like he is some sort of celebrity. LightSquared will try to milk this for all it is worth but should lose the battle when a more balanced and capable analysis of the problem has been performed.
 
I did some research on Sheriff Bubba. His letterhead indicates his office is in the town of Winchester in Clark County Kentucky. The population of Clark County is 35,613. So why should the Sheriff of a rural county in the beautiful state of Kentucky get to decide that the benefit of the LightSquared network exceeds the probable near total disruption of the GPS system?
 
Gary F said:
I did some research on Sheriff Bubba. His letterhead indicates his office is in the town of Winchester in Clark County Kentucky. The population of Clark County is 35,613. So why should the Sheriff of a rural county in the beautiful state of Kentucky get to decide that the benefit of the LightSquared network exceeds the probable near total disruption of the GPS system?
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The letter from Kentucky is interesting. Especially since the Sheriff's letter came in at about the same time as this one from a Kentucky CPA and the first responders letter that I have attached.
 

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ScottM said:
The letter from Kentucky is interesting. Especially since the Sheriff's letter came in at about the same time as this one from a Kentucky CPA and the first responders letter that I have attached.
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I suspect that LightSquared has done something to influence these guys. Who is Tom Havrilek in Hopkinsville or Mr. Brittain the CPA from Lexington? Investors in LightSquared? Who cares what they think? Perhaps we should send letters to these guys asking them what we should do about the disruption of GPS or if they even know about it. Mr. Brittain listed his email address in his letter. If this is the best LightSquared can do I'm not too worried. Maybe the members of POA should start writing letters to the FCC.
 
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Gary F said:
I suspect that LightSquared has done something to influence these guys. Who is Tom Havrilek in Hopkinsville or Mr. Brittain the CPA from Lexington? Investors in LightSquared? Who cares what they think? Perhaps we should send letters to these guys asking them what we should do about the disruption of GPS or if they even know about it. Mr. Brittain listed his email address in his letter.
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A couple of days earlier there were a whole bunch of letters coming out of Michigan that were in support of Light Squared, the day after that from Arizona. Hmmmm


Gary F said:
If this is the best LightSquared can do I'm not too worried. Maybe the members of POA should start writing letters to the FCC.
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Also look at the little blurb I posted above the whole broughaha about Mike's joke post. There is a chance to do a little politicking ourselves with the Defense Authorization Bill.
 
ScottM said:
The letter from Kentucky is interesting. Especially since the Sheriff's letter came in at about the same time as this one from a Kentucky CPA and the first responders letter that I have attached.
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You know what, you're in this so I'm gonna ask you, "How was this F- Up allowed to get this far? Why was this not adjusted for long ago? These things don't spring up overnight. Do we seriously not have enough spectrum available that we couldn't have adjusted LSs band away from interference? How did this get this far into a monumental f-up? How are we going to resolve it from here? What are the physical options available?

Another thing on this subject.... I remember in the early days of broadband and Sprint laying fiber a town in Texas provided community WiFi to everyone and similar systems were being built in other places. They were sued by the ISPs and had to shut down. It's taken until now for industry to catch up to building what municipalities were looking to build over a decade ago.
 
It looks like LightSquared is going for broke. I am surprised that they would continue to pour money in this endeavor when it appears so likely that the GPS problem is real. Do they think that public demand for high speed wireless will negate the consequences of disruption of GPS navigation? Do they think that they can get away with this?
 
Gary F said:
It looks like LightSquared is going for broke. I am surprised that they would continue to pour money in this endeavor when it appears so likely that the GPS problem is real. Do they think that public demand for high speed wireless will negate the consequences of disruption of GPS navigation? Do they think that they can get away with this?
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Public?

"Dave, I don't remember. Which lobbyist is the one that represents Public? How much we get from him?'"
 
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Henning said:
You know what, you're in this so I'm gonna ask you, "How was this F- Up allowed to get this far? Why was this not adjusted for long ago? These things don't spring up overnight. Do we seriously not have enough spectrum available that we couldn't have adjusted LSs band away from interference? How did this get this far into a monumental f-up? How are we going to resolve it from here? What are the physical options available?

Another thing on this subject.... I remember in the early days of broadband and Sprint laying fiber a town in Texas provided community WiFi to everyone and similar systems were being built in other places. They were sued by the ISPs and had to shut down. It's taken until now for industry to catch up to building what municipalities were looking to build over a decade ago.
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According to Flying Magazine (April 2011, p.8) Lightsquared was going to have a satellite system with "backup" transmitters on the ground to supplement the satellites. The problem is that these "supplemental" transmittors are really the backbone of the system. My read is Lightsquared took advantage of some poorly written rules.

The part that would ruin GPS for everyone is LightSquared’s scheme to install “backup” transmitters on the ground to supplement its satellite system. In this “backup” plan, LightSquared is being duplicitous. These terrestrial transmitters aren’t backups at all. They are actually the backbone of its proposed service and business plan. Without them, LightSquared couldn’t offer true broadband mobile service. While helper ground stations are technically allowed, their inclusion in the system is clearly an attempt by the company to use its status as a satellite provider in order to establish a high-powered ground network that otherwise wouldn’t be allowed. It’s an extremely clever plan that would also do great harm. There’s a word for that: diabolical.
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http://www.flyingmag.com/pilots-places/pilots-adventures-more/going-direct-lightsquared’s-dirty-bomb
 
Cap'n Jack said:
According to Flying Magazine (April 2011, p.8) Lightsquared was going to have a satellite system with "backup" transmitters on the ground to supplement the satellites. The problem is that these "supplemental" transmittors are really the backbone of the system. My read is Lightsquared took advantage of some poorly written rules.


http://www.flyingmag.com/pilots-places/pilots-adventures-more/going-direct-lightsquared’s-dirty-bomb
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Anybody who has ever had satellite "broadband" would realize that their plan was suspicious. There is no such thing as "broadband" satellite really. At its best it gets you ISDN speeds until you have very big dishes, and even then you have tons of latency issues. VoIP is poor and VPN is pretty near impossible. No satellite provider will guaranty either of those services to function well. And that is with a 1 meter tracking dish. How the hell was this supposed to work 2 way coms from satellites to small omni directional antennas and back? If Light Squared tried to play a game around technicalities and not provide the system that they were saying they would provide, well then, they can just eat the cost of fixing their system to not interfere with GPS.
 
Henning said:
Anybody who has ever had satellite "broadband" would realize that their plan was suspicious. There is no such thing as "broadband" satellite really. At its best it gets you ISDN speeds until you have very big dishes, and even then you have tons of latency issues. VoIP is poor and VPN is pretty near impossible. No satellite provider will guaranty either of those services to function well. And that is with a 1 meter tracking dish. How the hell was this supposed to work 2 way coms from satellites to small omni directional antennas and back? If Light Squared tried to play a game around technicalities and not provide the system that they were saying they would provide, well then, they can just eat the cost of fixing their system to not interfere with GPS.
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I tend to agree. Just nitpicking on you, but Dish and DirecTV seem to do broadband to service all their channels. I never noticed much latency watching shows on DirectTV, but I wouldn't notice or care of a show was delayed a fraction of a second. Using for internet? You run into latency just as you mention.
 
Well, you wouldn't really notice latency watching TV as once the stream is started it keeps coming. TV BTW is MUCH easier to do on satellite than 2 way broadband. Even the aiming of the dish is much more critical. One of the first services to come out with 2 way was Starband which teamed up with Dish Network. I could get it on the ranch, but I couldn't put it on the boat because our Mini M type tracking units couldn't keep the aim well enough for internet, yet the same gear brought in TV with no problems.

Sat Coms Broadband is still a big, slow expensive process at this point. The good equipment uses big dishes.
 
Henning said:
Anybody who has ever had satellite "broadband" would realize that their plan was suspicious. There is no such thing as "broadband" satellite really. At its best it gets you ISDN speeds until you have very big dishes, and even then you have tons of latency issues. VoIP is poor and VPN is pretty near impossible. No satellite provider will guaranty either of those services to function well. And that is with a 1 meter tracking dish. How the hell was this supposed to work 2 way coms from satellites to small omni directional antennas and back? If Light Squared tried to play a game around technicalities and not provide the system that they were saying they would provide, well then, they can just eat the cost of fixing their system to not interfere with GPS.
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There's also an inherent aggregate (shared) bandwidth issue with satellite delivery of internet, especially if you're limited to one or two birds. Data bandwidth is a function of spectrum width, noise margin, and error rates. Full utilization of LS's 35MHz spectrum (which likely must be trimmed some for guard banding) the maximum practical data rate would be around 500 MBps. Even using a 10% average single user rate (with associated serious throttling required during peak usage hours) that wouldn't handle more than 5000 customers at 1MBps each. That's hardly what I'd call a significant bump to the national internet capacity.
 
Henning said:
Anybody who has ever had satellite "broadband" would realize that their plan was suspicious. There is no such thing as "broadband" satellite really. At its best it gets you ISDN speeds until you have very big dishes, and even then you have tons of latency issues. VoIP is poor and VPN is pretty near impossible. No satellite provider will guaranty either of those services to function well. And that is with a 1 meter tracking dish. How the hell was this supposed to work 2 way coms from satellites to small omni directional antennas and back? If Light Squared tried to play a game around technicalities and not provide the system that they were saying they would provide, well then, they can just eat the cost of fixing their system to not interfere with GPS.
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Times have changed a bit. You can't get around the round-trip-time physics issue to Geo-stationary orbit, but you can futz around with buffers at both ends.

I've pushed standard SIP calls (typically GSM for the CODEC, but higher bandwidth CODECs work fine too) through WildBlue's satellite links. It works fine.

They don't want you to rely on it, so they say "No VoIP", but they've engineered their router's buffering schemes to keep streaming media flowing properly. Delayed, but packets in-order and intact.

LightSquared is crappy engineering trying to compete with folks like WildBlue. Here's hoping they have a quick trip straight to bankruptcy.
 
FYI
http://www.gpsworld.com/machine-con...red-interference-with-no-solution-sight-11712

Deere & Company, a major provider of precision agriculture equipment and services, notified the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) on May 26 of substantial interference with its GPS receivers by the LightSquared signal. Deere receivers registered impact of and interference by the LightSquared signal as far away as 22 miles from a transmitter. Further, the company has found no practicable technical solution to the problem. Deere met with an FCC legal advisor to report on its analysis of recent New Mexico tests of the Lightsquared signal and effects on GPS equipment.
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Interestingly enough, I was navigating around SE Vegas and Henderson over Memorial Day weekend, using my iPhone docked in a car kit with an external GPS. I was also flying out of Henderson Executive using my iPad with the internal gps. I noticed some real weirdness going on. Don't know if their testing extended into that time period.
 
Such an easy to jam system.

Perhaps we should base NextGen on it 100% with no terrestrial backup.

:D ;)
 
I still want to see the FCC disallow their use of the bandwidth adjacent to the GPS bands. This is entirely voluntary, and they could change their tune at any time. But I applaud the outcome and (tentatively) thanks LightSquared for doing the right thing.
 
This isn't over yet.

Source: http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...ertainty?source=CTWNLE_nlt_dailyam_2011-06-22

Though details are scarce, LightSquared presented an outline of its plan in a press release on Monday. It would abandon, for now, a 10MHz band that sits near frequencies commonly used by GPS devices, and in its place would use a lower 10MHz band that is farther away. In the new frequencies, LightSquared's network would not interfere with GPS except for "a limited number of high precision GPS receivers," the company said. The rollout schedule for the network, which the company has said will go live this year, did not change with the new band plan, according to LightSquared.

Like LightSquared's original plan, the new proposal would need to be approved by the FCC, though the exact process would be up to the agency. LightSquared did not disclose a timeline for any formal proposal to the FCC. The original plan requires LightSquared to work with users and vendors of GPS technology to ensure its network doesn't interfere with GPS devices. The original proposal still stands, and after a deadline extension, a report on this testing is due July 1.

The Coalition to Save Our GPS, which includes GPS vendors Garmin, Magellan and Trimble, as well as FedEx, Caterpiller, the Air Transport Association and others, dismissed LightSquared's claims of having solved the interference problem.

"Confining its operation to the lower MSS band still interferes with many critical GPS receivers in addition to the precision receivers that even LightSquared concedes will be affected," the group said in a statement attributed to Jim Kirkland, vice president and general counsel of Trimble. "It is time for LightSquared to move out of the MSS band."

"This latest gambit by LightSquared borders on the bizarre," the coalition said.
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Maybe over for now

http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system...mittee-blocks-fcc-approval-lightsquared-11818

The prohibition means that the FCC is effectively barred from any further consideration of LightSquared’s plan, since even meeting to discuss the plan spends federal funds through employee salaries. Until LightSquared comes up with a plan that completely protects existing GPS navigation devices from interference, LightSquared cannot operate its satellite-based broadband service.

Something smelled about the FCC's original approval, imho, as there is already a prohibition against GPS interference.

http://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-enforcement-advisory-cell-jammers-gps-jammers-and-other-jamming-devices-0

 
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Lightsquared, yesterday, suggested that the true fault rested with the GPS industry, for building receivers which were susceptible to the jamming.

Really.

Sorta like the rapist who says, "...if she had not wandered through the park looking so fine, I would not have done her."
 
SCCutler said:
Lightsquared, yesterday, suggested that the true fault rested with the GPS industry, for building receivers which were susceptible to the jamming.
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I've seen many quotes from LS saying that, and have even seen FCC (!!) personnel saying similar things. (This editorial from the LS head honcho really took the cake, in my mind. Wonder if he ever read any of the comments it generated? http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/technology/164219-wireless-competition- )

Ridiculous.
 
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LightSquared is just playing from Nextel's songsheet.

Nextel's folks won and got better spectrum protection that cost taxpayers billions and billions to move Public Safety away from Nextel's 800 MHz spectrum.

LightSquared is attempting the same thing. Move into spectrum right next door to something important. Trash it with higher power than originally intended since side-lobes happen in real-world RF physics. Scream that it's the receiver selectivity that's poor on the neighbor's gear and hope the FCC gives 'em a more desirable chunk of spectrum somewhere else.

Nothing new under the Sun. This has been done before. LightSquared is rolling the dice.

Or to paraphrase Will Rogers, "Buy RF Spectrum. They're not making any more of it."
 
denverpilot said:
LightSquared is just playing from Nextel's songsheet.

Nextel's folks won and got better spectrum protection that cost taxpayers billions and billions to move Public Safety away from Nextel's 800 MHz spectrum.

LightSquared is attempting the same thing. Move into spectrum right next door to something important. Trash it with higher power than originally intended since side-lobes happen in real-world RF physics. Scream that it's the receiver selectivity that's poor on the neighbor's gear and hope the FCC gives 'em a more desirable chunk of spectrum somewhere else.

Nothing new under the Sun. This has been done before. LightSquared is rolling the dice.

Or to paraphrase Will Rogers, "Buy RF Spectrum. They're not making any more of it."
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This is the only explanation that makes any sense to me. I can't beleive that the leadership at Lightsquared actually thought they'd be able to trump the entire GPS industry. It makes more sense that they were trying to get more spectrum elsewhere.

The other possibility is they thought they had enough support at the FCC that they'd be able to overrule the GPS community.

I'd bet this made its way to the J2 or POTUS level, given the rumblings I've heard within GPS at the lower levels.

I find it very strange that congress got involved as described in one of the previously posted links. Maybe there is something rotten in the FCC.
 
Can't say for sure, but isn't the GPS network right in the middle of being transferred to Raytheon?

I think they timed it exactly during the "most confusing" time and hoped no one would squawk too loudly.

They also probably DID hope that GPS receivers were a lot more selective than they are. But you always trade selectivity for sensitivity in any receiver, and some of my newer GPS units get signals in my underground basement with tiny windows where the southern ones are under a steel awning over the porch. They're not exactly making that trade-off. So LightSquared does have a point.

Now the question becomes "How close is too close at what power levels?" They know they can tie the FCC up in expensive consultants and legal battles for years if their funding doesn't run out.

In the case of Nextel, it was expensive as hell to mitigate their interference to Public Safety frequencies, but probably cheaper than the legal battle would have been, sadly.

Some FCC field guys LOVE finding interference sources. But they're mostly retiring. The kids sit in the offices and punch buttons on the monitoring gear and do paperwork.

We're about to lose our FCC guy who's got keys to all the best high sites and takes the van out listening all the time to retirement in a few years here. It's bummin' me out.

We've all run into him when doing site work. Hey, is that X's truck?

[Name withheld because I'm sure there's a lot of wack jobs who can't play by the rules who hate him, and I'd love nothing more than for him to retire in peace.]

One of the few government folks I've met who didn't sit behind a desk every day and enjoyed his job. I'm sure he wasn't paid enough for all the good he did 'round here.
 
P.S. There's another FCC person here who violated a short tower for faded orange/white paint in the dead of winter. She's utterly worthless. The tower owner tried to explain the paint is water-based and asked for an extension. She said no. They installed strobes and told her to pound sand. The neighbors didn't like the strobes. The owner told 'em to take it up with the FCC.
 
Someone with more savvy than I can put up the link, but it is possible and a number of us have filed comments in ECFS. It's 11-109.

(I'm ashamed to admit I miswrote Lightsquared as Lightspeed in a senior moment - hope I can be forgiven by all.)
 
Oh gee, look... LightSquared is associated with Sprint/Nextel and Sprint/Nextel stands to make $2B a year in leasing out tower space to them.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-20...rk-deal/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

The sleazebags of the wireless Telephony industry have buddies who want to be the sleazebags of the wireless Internet industry and they all want to work together

Gosh. WHO would have guessed?

Big money, high stakes. If it gets a wider "trial" the game is over... and we'll all be replacing older "inferior" GPS receivers with ones that have better filtering, if someone doesn't stop these idiots right now.

It's Nextel 800 MHz all over again. Gee, look. The same old playbook from the same jerks and their friends who own key Congresscritters.
 
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