Redbird, IPC

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Sundancer

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I want an IPC, though I don't need an IPC. I got one a few years back on an ATD, and was good with it. I also find MS FS to be very useful, so I'm not at all "anti-sim". -

There are some Redbird AATDs in my immediate area, and I was thinking I'd book a couple hours with a CFII in one, break for lunch, then do the IPC.

Redbird experience anecdotes welcome; I have flown a level D, but not for a GA aircraft - what d'ya think of Redbirds!
 
They all just run Prepar3D so in terms of realism that's what you're getting. The rest depends on which one, if it's the full motion fmx 1000 then I would find that more useful with its panel setup than the lesser models.
 
Last I checked, you cannot do a circling approach in one so you have to fly an airplane to complete that part of an IPC.

The full-motion Redbird is gimmicky and not like a Level D.
 
I gave a ton of instruction in a FMX, I normally ran with motion off as it was more annoying than useful.

That said I'd expect a much harder IPC, the amount of failures I'd toss in and bouncing from approach to approach, it was a let all hell loose type of "flight".
 
I have a about 5 hours in the Redbird FMX within the last 6 months or so. The one I flew was a Bonanza panel.

Pitch feed back was not very realistic. And, maintaining altitude was difficult. Hand flying approaches was more difficult than in the 172 I normally fly. However, it was great practice and a terrific procedures trainer is you need to knock the rust off.
 
wilkersk said:
I have a about 5 hours in the Redbird FMX within the last 6 months or so. The one I flew was a Bonanza panel.

Pitch feed back was not very realistic. And, maintaining altitude was difficult. Hand flying approaches was more difficult than in the 172 I normally fly. However, it was great practice and a terrific procedures trainer is you need to knock the rust off.
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Thanks - it's not the rust so much as wanting to get some critique from a CFII that doesn't know me. Really, MS FS is pretty darn good, even with my low-end yoke and pedals. Our airplane is heading in for annual soon, and even though the Redbird rate isn't very much less than our tach rate, I can get in a lot more practice. . .

The closest place has 172 and Garmin 530, which is our airplane. . .not too worried about a circling approach, since that's a very low likelyhood event for me; just not in my personal minimums - I'm also on a direct-to-alternate on a missed. No where I need to be such that I'd circle at minimums, or re-try one I alreadt missed!

I got my eyes opened on the ATD ewen the instructor introduced a failure-I took way too long to recognize it, probably fatally so in the real world. That was quite a while back, and I'd like to some more of those scenarios. . .
 
Sundancer said:
Thanks - it's not the rust so much as wanting to get some critique from a CFII that doesn't know me. Really, MS FS is pretty darn good, even with my low-end yoke and pedals. Our airplane is heading in for annual soon, and even though the Redbird rate isn't very much less than our tach rate, I can get in a lot more practice. . .

The closest place has 172 and Garmin 530, which is our airplane. . .not too worried about a circling approach, since that's a very low likelyhood event for me; just not in my personal minimums - I'm also on a direct-to-alternate on a missed. No where I need to be such that I'd circle at minimums, or re-try one I alreadt missed!

I got my eyes opened on the ATD ewen the instructor introduced a failure-I took way too long to recognize it, probably fatally so in the real world. That was quite a while back, and I'd like to some more of those scenarios. . .
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Indeer, you get much more valuable work in per hour, compared to a real aircraft, you eliminate most all the waisted time, the waiting for traffic or the easy enroute stuff, if you screw up a approach you can pause, talk, rewind and let her rip.

As for the circle, I you can't do a circle to land (no that big of a deal) I wouldn't sign my name to your logbook, you should be able to fly every aspect of a approach you're shooting (equipment dictating of course).
 
James331 said:
As for the circle, I you can't do a circle to land (no that big of a deal) I wouldn't sign my name to your logbook, you should be able to fly every aspect of a approach you're shooting (equipment dictating of course).
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Especially since the circle to land is required for an IPC per the PTS.
 
James331 said:
Indeer, you get much more valuable work in per hour, compared to a real aircraft, you eliminate most all the waisted time, the waiting for traffic or the easy enroute stuff, if you screw up a approach you can pause, talk, rewind and let her rip.

As for the circle, I you can't do a circle to land (no that big of a deal) I wouldn't sign my name to your logbook, you should be able to fly every aspect of a approach you're shooting (equipment dictating of course).
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Oh I can, I'm just not gonna, not in the real world, not at miniums - it's basically a VFR sucker play, with a minimal ceiling.

It's funny how we all get a comfort level with some things, but not others; ILS to minimums, or departing a field that's below approach minimums, no worries. . .sign me up! But circling near minimums? Not gonna do it. Gone missed? Then going alternate!

I will ask the FBO about the IPC, see if the Redbird can do everything needed for an IPC, of course.
 
I've flown several Redbird sims, and have hated the way the flight controls are really just joysticks, with maybe 16 different values and no feedback.

However, last month I got to fly a Redbird King Air simulator, which had a yoke that felt just like a real airplane, with force feedback and smooth analog response to control inputs.

I'd give up motion in a New York minute in trade for the high fidelity flight controls in that King Air sim.
 
I am not sure you understand, an IPC requires a Circle to Land, whether you will ever do one or not...
 
Sundancer said:
Oh I can, I'm just not gonna, not in the real world, not at miniums - it's basically a VFR sucker play, with a minimal ceiling.

It's funny how we all get a comfort level with some things, but not others; ILS to minimums, or departing a field that's below approach minimums, no worries. . .sign me up! But circling near minimums? Not gonna do it. Gone missed? Then going alternate!

I will ask the FBO about the IPC, see if the Redbird can do everything needed for an IPC, of course.
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Why?

They ain't that scary, was your initial CFI scared of them and it transfered to you?

I did one a few weeks ago into KTEB, not a big deal, unless you can't or are scared and won't.
 
James331 said:
Why?

They ain't that scary, was your initial CFI scared of them and it transfered to you?

I did one a few weeks ago into KTEB, not a big deal, unless you can't or are scared and won't.
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Not scared; just not that dumb. . or, maybe not dumb enough? Circling minimums can have some low, low ceilings; racking it around at half pattern altitude, scud all around, etc., just a good way to be suddenly IMC in a bad attitude, pointed the wrong way, etc. Even dumber at dusk/night. Most ceilings aren't THAT definite, even stratus, usually.

It is, as someone once wrote "a procedure designed to fail". If the ceiling is up around PA, O.K., sure, why not? Otherwise, no. . .

So, while I'll take an ILS to minimums, I think of a circling approach with minimum ceiling as a Larry-Lightbulb kind of procedure.
 
ja_user said:
I am not sure you understand, an IPC requires a Circle to Land, whether you will ever do one or not...
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They're telling me the IPC is available, so either the sim can handle it, or they give the circling approach a pass. Either way, I get the practice, the refresher training, and the signature. I'm happy. . .
 
JimNtexas said:
I've flown several Redbird sims, and have hated the way the flight controls are really just joysticks, with maybe 16 different values and no feedback.

However, last month I got to fly a Redbird King Air simulator, which had a yoke that felt just like a real airplane, with force feedback and smooth analog response to control inputs.

I'd give up motion in a New York minute in trade for the high fidelity flight controls in that King Air sim.
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Yes, someone else mentioned motion as not all that useful. . .once I get in it, I'll post back on the feedback/control feel. I'm hoping I don't have to spend an hour developing new "muscle memory" before I can fly it with IFR precision. But looking forward to it as semi-new experience. It's been a long time since I was in a real sim, so I'm curious as heck about this one. . .
 
So here is the approach a bunch of us dumb professional pilots were shooting into KTEB a few weeks ago, VOR 24, circle 19.

I would not feel comfortable signing off someone who isn't comfortable shooting a approach like this.


Of course this is a matter between you, your II and the FARS and common sense. Personally I don't see the huge risk here, but hey, YMMV

00890V24_0001.png
 
James331 said:
So here is the approach a bunch of us dumb professional pilots were shooting into KTEB a few weeks ago, VOR 24, circle 19.

I would not feel comfortable signing off someone who isn't comfortable shooting a approach like this.


Of course this is a matter between you, your II and the FARS and common sense. Personally I don't see the huge risk here, but hey, YMMV

00890V24_0001.png
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I haven't looked at the Instrument PTS for a while, but that wouldn't meet the requirements for a circle-to-land in the ATP PTS.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I haven't looked at the Instrument PTS for a while, but that wouldn't meet the requirements for a circle-to-land in the ATP PTS.
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True. Instrument rating PTS requires at least a 90º change in direction.
 
Sundancer said:
They're telling me the IPC is available, so either the sim can handle it, or they give the circling approach a pass. Either way, I get the practice, the refresher training, and the signature. I'm happy. . .
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I think you may be missing the point. An IPC requires a circling approach. The circling approach for the IPC cannot be done in an AATD (ref: the PTS). The "best" Redbirds are AATDs. The IPC issue is even discussed on Redbird's own website linked by dmspilot.

So your post leaves out an option - if the school is telling you they can do an IPC in the Redbird, they are mistaken. This is a really, really common misunderstanding.
 
dmspilot said:
True. Instrument rating PTS requires at least a 90º change in direction.
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Point is you will see one in the wild if you actually fly IFR/IMC, having some silly aversion to shooting it is a issue if you're going to be flying real IFR as PIC.
 
James331 said:
So here is the approach a bunch of us dumb professional pilots were shooting into KTEB a few weeks ago, VOR 24, circle 19.

I would not feel comfortable signing off someone who isn't comfortable shooting a approach like this.


Of course this is a matter between you, your II and the FARS and common sense. Personally I don't see the huge risk here, but hey, YMMV

00890V24_0001.png
Click to expand...
Ah, gee, I wasn't clear - wasn't calling you dumb, just the procedure. Which, with respect, is a marginal (at best!) procedure with the ceiling at minimums. And you've probaly signed off a lot of people who just didn't mention some aspect of IFR flight made them uncomfortable. I'm guessing you've done a bunch with the subject under the hood on a nice VFR day?

Nothing wrong with discomfort, as long as you can perform the act competently. I don't change lanes in an intersection either - I know how to, can pull it off, but it is rarely necessary, right?
 
James331 said:
Point is you will see one in the wild if you actually fly IFR/IMC, having some silly aversion to shooting it is a issue if you're going to be flying real IFR as PIC.
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Been doing so for some years, very "real". But i'm not being paid to chaffeur or trash haul, so, again, I've decided circling at minimums isn't a smart move.
 
Did the Redbird today, and as KennyW and Jim In Texas said, I found the pitch feedback/response not too refined; rates are off, as are the pressure instrument responses. Really not/not better than a bargain yoke and MS FS. . .trim response also not too good, and trimming a real chore. I did like the motion, as it felt more real, and did add to the feedback a bit.

Plus side, it saves a bunch of time, and the sim was configured pretty close to the 172 I'm flying now. When VFR, the graphics are adequate, and you get about 180 degrees of vision. Did a bunch of instrument failures, and that was superior to putting a sticky note over 'em, as in a real airplane. The appearance of the panel is kinda low-rent, but that's just asthetics.

I'd do it again, and it is a good way to get recurrent, do a lot of approaches, and sharoen up. And to get the log book entry. . .
 
heck, I did do it again! The airplane broke, so we did it in the Redbird; it's kinda grown on me. Will compare it with MS FS when I finish beating my new Windows 10 desktop into submission.

Wow, there was a lot of bloatware to uninstall; started from Windows 8.1 that came with the box, and the silly MS Account nonsense, and got rid of all those Windows "apps" that are of no utility to me, along with dropping the cloud storage junk. Did the Win 10 update, and it didn't take long to figure out how to ditch "Edge" and bring up IE.

Still, with downloads and configuring, took all evening as the blizzard advanced on metro D.C.
 
It may not be loggable, but I sure feel capable when I get into the airplane after using my home simulator. The problem I have encountered with redbirds is that they are framey and they are fairly hard to upgrade runways. When using pilotedge, who wants to see 19R/L at John Wayne?

I use Prepar3d, a real world weather generator, a program that lets me use foreflight on my ipad, FTX Southern California, pilotedge, and the A2A Skylane with the Flight1 GTN750. Stupid how realistic it is.

My computer harware is pretty capable hence pricey but it is less than the base redbird.
 
Sounds solid. . .the Redbird came with the CFII, and I wanted that critique, something more than the cookie-cutter IPC. I am sold on the value of desktop sims, even my simple MS FS and low end yoke and rudder pedals.
 
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