Redbird hours

OkieAviator

OkieAviator

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OkieAviator
My home field Sundance (KHSD) received their full motion Redbird this week. I had a chance yesterday to do a quick lesson in it yesterday. They have two configurations; a Seminole type for multi and a Cherokee type for single. It has the fun factor with it shaking around, has some tension on the controls so you can simulate trimming, doesn't "feel" like a real plane but is probably about as close as you're going to get.

I'm debating how much I should use it for instrument training and would like to hear from some people who used these for their IR training. Should I max my hours out on it? Being a sim you can skip preflight and do a ton approaches, departures and what not so I see a real benefit in that. Also cost right now is $45/hr, which seems very competitive... Costs me $30/hr in fuel alone for my plane.
 
For IFR if you can't get into IMC get into the Sim, it's all about your CFII though, so shop CFIIs carefully.

Make sure they have some serious IMC and ice time.

As for the red bird, I've given a ton of dual in one and did a little time prepping for my ATP in one, it's a pimped out version of MS flight sim X, but it works great, the motion is more of a gimmick which I would often turn off.


But yeah, for IFR sims are REALLY good.
 
I don't know about maxing your hours out, but later in your training, when you are practicing procedures and approaches, I see no reason not to do as much as you can in the sim to save money.

Plus, you can set the sim so every minute you are in it counts as simulated instrument, where as in the plane you'll always have the front and backend time not counting toward your training.

There's a reason they allow up to 20 hours.
 
A Redbird FMX was part of my training under a part 141 program. I logged 17 hours in it of which 14 counted towards the 35 hour total required to take the checkride. The allowable hours has gone down IIRC since I got my rating back in November. Anyway, I thought it prepared me well in attitude flying and G1000 operations and I'd use again if I had to do it all over again. Although I thought it was harder to "fly" than the real thing, like you said it was a huge time saver as you could get right to the meat of the lesson, you or the instructor could pause it to discuss things, and at my school it rented for half of what the G1000 C172 did. So yeah, I'd recommend using it to the max extent possible.
 
tsts4 said:
A Redbird FMX was part of my training under a part 141 program. I logged 17 hours in it of which 14 counted towards the 35 hour total required to take the checkride. The allowable hours has gone down IIRC since I got my rating back in November. Anyway, I thought it prepared me well in attitude flying and G1000 operations and I'd use again if I had to do it all over again. Although I thought it was harder to "fly" than the real thing, like you said it was a huge time saver as you could get right to the meat of the lesson, you or the instructor could pause it to discuss things, and at my school it rented for half of what the G1000 C172 did. So yeah, I'd recommend using it to the max extent possible.
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It's gone up to 20 hours allowed in the sim.
 
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http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/...-allows-more-sim-time-for-instrument-training

I knew I hadn't gone crazy.

Here's the new rule that went into effect Jan. 2015:

(i) Use of an aviation training device. A maximum of 20 hours of instrument time received in an aviation training device may be credited for the instrument time requirements of this section if—
(1) The device is approved and authorized by the FAA;
(2) An authorized instructor provides the instrument time in the device; and
(3) The FAA approved the instrument training and instrument tasks performed in the device.
(j) A person may not credit more than 20 total hours of instrument time in a flight simulator, flight training device, aviation training device, or combination toward the instrument time requirements of this section.
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https://www.federalregister.gov/art...raining-device-credit-for-pilot-certification

Part 141 also went up to 50% of total training time from 40%.
 
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The Redbird is based off Lockheed's Prepar3D product which is what I currently use on my home setup. Obviously I can't log that time but I able do real time flights, using real weather in conjunction with PilotEdge. This has helped me become comfortable with planning and filing flights, then flying them while talking to 'ATC'.

Seems the consensus is that the Redbird is a good learning tool so I'll talk to my CFII about maybe doing 10 hours in it... possibly 20 to make sure I really grasp it all. I'm not trying to get my IR in the minimum amount of hours. So if I checkride with 100 hours IMC then so be it.
 
If it's an ATD, getting the max allowed 10 hours is a good idea. Better to learn procedures in the sim (where you can stop and discuss, restart, go back, do over, place yourself right where you want to start a procedure, etc) and practice in the plane than to try to learn in a cockpit in flight (one of the world's worst classrooms).

If it's an FTD, you'll probably do everything you can do usefully before you max out the allowable 20 hours. At PIC, when we were using FTD's, we found that about 17 hours in the FTD was the point we'd done everything worth doing in the sim, and everything else would be done in the plane.

Either way, make sure your instructor knows how to effectively integrate the use of a flight simulation device into the syllabus. That's not something you can just walk in and do, but rather requires careful construction of an integrated flight/sim syllabus.
 
Bonchie said:
It's gone up to 20 hours allowed in the sim.
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The FAA tried to raise it to 20 hours for AATD's last fall via the Direct Final Rule process, but were shot down by one [expletive deleted] who objected. They're now back to starting the 2-3 year process of creating such a change by the regular ARC/NPRM/FR process. Thus, the max allowance for AATD's remains the same 10 hours as for BATD's. FTD's and full flight simulators remain at 20 hours.

And there are different limits under Part 141, so see your school's TCO for details there.
 
The Redbird is an awesome simulator. Definitely use it. You can pause, restart, and change weather. It was really helpful for me trying to understand holds and different procedures.
 
Ron Levy said:
That rule was proposed under the Direct Final Rule process, but was derailed in January, and never went into effect.
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Two questions.

1) My school has an old ATC610, where you stare at a black wall, I'm using (still certified). Simulator, FTD, or AATD? I think it's a simulator and 20 hours is allowed but I'd like to confirm this.

2) What logical basis does the FAA have for handicapping the Redbird like this? To me, the Redbird allows even better training because you can vary so many variables, use advanced avionics, etc. vs. the older simulators where you are stuck with a few approaches within a single low en-route chart area and a limited instrument layout.
 
Bonchie said:
1) My school has an old ATC610, where you stare at a black wall, I'm using (still certified). Simulator, FTD, or AATD? I think it's a simulator and 20 hours is allowed but I'd like to confirm this.
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It's never been a full flight simulator. It's always been an FTD with 20 hours allowed, but the FAA is reviewing its status as an FTD (grandfathered since about 1970) in accordance with current rules on FTD's, so that could change. We at PIC stopped using them a couple of years ago in favor of the highly flexible FlyThisSim TouchTrainer BATD as primary and Elite PI-135 BATD as secondary for particular situations. With the release of the new FTS-TT computer models for the Bonanza and Baron (to go with the full line of Cessna 172/182/206, Diamond DA-40, and Cirrus SR20/22, with software-selectable analog and glass panel options for all), the need for the Elite in our operation is fading.

The requirement for an enclosed cockpit to qualify as an AATD has made any AATD option unfeasible for us since we have to carry our sim with us wherever we go, and we're not going to haul a trailer around to do that (especially when I'm traveling to the job in my Tiger, which lacks tow capability), even if the FAA manages to increase the AATD hours to 20. Ditto FTD's, and don't even think about trying to create a transportable FFS. Since the FTS-TT fits easily in the trunk of a car or the baggage compartment of a 4-seat airplane, and can turn from a steam-gauge dual nav/com Cessna 172 into a Cirrus SR22 Perspective in about two minutes, it meets our needs very nicely.

2) What logical basis does the FAA have for handicapping the Redbird like this? To me, the Redbird allows even better training because you can vary so many variables, use advanced avionics, etc. vs. the older simulators where you are stuck with a few approaches within a single low en-route chart area and a limited instrument layout.
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For that you'd have to dig into all the preambles in the Federal Register for the implementation of Part 60 and all the applicable sections of Parts 61 and 141, as well as the relevant AC's (a project which should keep someone busy for several days or weeks). But they do have their reasons even if you may not find them valid.
 
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I found it very useful. If you do glass, though, it's important that it matches what you actually fly. I flew an Avidyne SR22 and then the Redbird had a G1000 and it was not very helpful. Then they got an Avidyne panel for it with a sidestick yoke and it became tremendously valuable. I trained over the winter so any day there was icing or really low IFR we did sim work.
 
I have 8.6 in the Redbird so far. It's been fun, the pausing aspect is great as well as being able to set the weather to the exact minimums. The only think that gets to me, which might be beneficial in the long run is how much 'harder' it is to fly than a real airplane. With the slightest change in backpressure I can go from a 1000 fpm descent to a 1000 fpm climb.

I might do 1 more lesson in the Redbird and switch to the real plane for a bit. I'm afraid 10 more hours in the Redbird would only improve my Redbird flying skills.
 
OkieAviator said:
I might do 1 more lesson in the Redbird and switch to the real plane for a bit. I'm afraid 10 more hours in the Redbird would only improve my Redbird flying skills.
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Guess that makes some sense of why the FAA only allows 10 hours in an ATD towards the 40 for the IR.
 
OkieAviator said:
I have 8.6 in the Redbird so far. It's been fun, the pausing aspect is great as well as being able to set the weather to the exact minimums. The only think that gets to me, which might be beneficial in the long run is how much 'harder' it is to fly than a real airplane. With the slightest change in backpressure I can go from a 1000 fpm descent to a 1000 fpm climb.

I might do 1 more lesson in the Redbird and switch to the real plane for a bit. I'm afraid 10 more hours in the Redbird would only improve my Redbird flying skills.
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I recommend you learning holds and approaches on it. That is where the Redbird excels.
 
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