Rebuilt v overhauled engine

[n2230b]

Greetings,

What are the differences between a rebuilt vs overhauled engine?
Assuming they are performed by the factory, (Lycoming).
Other than price.

Thanks,

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

http://www.continentalmotors.aero/Rebuilding_Benefits/



https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/1998/november/flight-training-magazine/engine-overhauls
FAR Part 43.2(a) says an overhauled product has been "disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled ... and tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data ... acceptable to the Administrator which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate ...".

FAR Part 43.2 (b) says a rebuilt product as one that has been "disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item .

 

[frfly172]

On a rebuild you get a zero timed engine,as opposed to an overhaul. And as mentioned price.

 

[tspear]

Resale value.

 

[Bell206]

What are the differences between a rebuilt vs overhauled engine?

To add to the above, an engine can only be rebuilt be the OEM or their approved agent, whereas an engine can be overhauled by any certificated entity (A&P, RS). Whether one is better than the other has been a topic for debate for years plus going the rebuilt route doesn't automatically guarantee the use of brand new parts, only that the parts used meet the specs of "new" parts.

 

[Bill]

To add to the above, an engine can only be rebuilt be the OEM or their approved agent, whereas an engine can be overhauled by any certificated entity (A&P, RS). Whether one is better than the other has been a topic for debate for years plus going the rebuilt route doesn't automatically guarantee the use of brand new parts, only that the parts used meet the specs of "new" parts.

Correct, there still will be plenty of used parts in that "zero time" engine.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

To add to the confusion about which is better, many are saying they prefer used parts with a proven service history, to baby parts of unknown future.

 

[hindsight2020]

To add to the confusion about which is better, many are saying they prefer used parts with a proven service history, to baby parts of unknown future.

That's because OEM QA is horrible in this overpriced small fry piston aviation cottage industry, AND the onus is on the customer to eat the eff ups of the OEM. Neither dynamic would ever fly (<---pun intended) in the consumer automotive market.

 

[Clip4]

Warranty is one difference.

 

[NordicDave]

One can argue an engine overhauled with a premier engine shop is superior to the factory rebuilt or overhaul. If you have a little time core with one box since birth, do you know what your working with. Original engines with logs to birth add value to the aircraft as the total engine history is known.

Factory rebuilds often times use parts from multiple engines they have disassembled. Part of the reason why you are getting zero time logbook, since the various parts have unknown times in service.

The premier overhaul shops will dynamically and statically balance the rotating masses for smoother operation. The factory tends to only statically balance rotating parts.

Engine with multiple rebuilds or a sketchy history is best to send back to the factory. Good engine with a known history is often times better candidate for overhaul with a premier shop. Good engine with a known history is often times better candidate for overhaul with a premier shop.

Downtime is also a factor. Buying a factory new or rebuild will get you back in the air quicker than waiting for an overhaul to be returned.

You’ll get a very wide body of opinion on this topic.

 

[idahoflier]

And since you mentioned Lycoming, you may receive roller tappets with a Lycoming rebuild. Only Lycoming can perform the mods required for roller tappets...

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

depends who's buying.....and selling.

 

[Bill]

And since you mentioned Lycoming, you may receive roller tappets with a Lycoming rebuild. Only Lycoming can perform the mods required for roller tappets...

That was a big factor in us choosing a Lyco factory overhaul vs. field overhaul. We also went from siamese mag to two individual mags, and both of these mods require different cases. And back to the roller tappets, word has it that recent flat tappets have been of questionable quality, and if they spawl 200-300hrs back into service, guess who gets holding the bag to split the cases and replace them?

 

[idahoflier]

And back to the roller tappets, word has it that recent flat tappets have been of questionable quality, and if they spawl 200-300hrs back into service, guess who gets holding the bag to split the cases and replace them?

Boy I sure hope not because I didn't go with a Lycoming re-manufacture!

 

[hindsight2020]

That was a big factor in us choosing a Lyco factory overhaul vs. field overhaul. We also went from siamese mag to two individual mags, and both of these mods require different cases. And back to the roller tappets, word has it that recent flat tappets have been of questionable quality, and if they spawl 200-300hrs back into service, guess who gets holding the bag to split the cases and replace them?

IOW, a euphemism for racketeering by the OEM. Only in this cottage industry.

One of the reasons I support the proliferation of engine cloning in EAB more and more. Diversification of providers is a good thing, and something sorely needed in this hobby, even if one has to rely on de facto automotive/marine providers. At least with the latter, the cost penalties are minimized by economies of scale.

 

[Arrow76R]

I have been waiting for almost 3 months to receive a Lycoming factory overhauled engine. Can't get anyone to call or write back as to the status of my engine. I have left numerous voice mails and e-mails. It is NOT POSSIBLE to talk with a human there! Customer service is not good although the engines are.

 

[tspear]

I have been waiting for almost 3 months to receive a Lycoming factory overhauled engine. Can't get anyone to call or write back as to the status of my engine. I have left numerous voice mails and e-mails. It is NOT POSSIBLE to talk with a human there! Customer service is not good although the engines are.

Interesting how things have changed. I had a Lycoming rebuild an engine for me back in 2012. They provided updates on a regular basis.

Tim

 

[idahoflier]

I have been waiting for almost 3 months to receive a Lycoming factory overhauled engine. Can't get anyone to call or write back as to the status of my engine. I have left numerous voice mails and e-mails. It is NOT POSSIBLE to talk with a human there! Customer service is not good although the engines are.

That definitely factored into my overhaul decision. I was told 16 weeks after my core was received...

 

[weilke]

I had the chance to experience the same engine after both, a factory 'rebuild' and a 'field overhaul' by Powermasters. My n=1 experience says that the same metal bits assembled after the field overhaul somehow created a much smoother running engine than the factory job.

When we got the reman, it was a reasonable option. The prior engine had some unsupported STCs and a suspect crank, a field overhaul would probably been more expensive than sending Conti a 'running when removed' core.

 

[n2230b]

That is a lot of useful stuff. Did not know about tappets but it is a good reason to go reman. This would be the 2nd overhaul and the point re known core plus dyn bal, not to mention savings leans to field oh.
Thanks

 

[MooneyDriver78]

When we got the reman, it was a reasonable option. The prior engine had some unsupported STCs and a suspect crank, a field overhaul would probably been more expensive than sending Conti a 'running when removed' core.

Why did you suspect the crank?



Tom

 

[weilke]

Why did you suspect the crank?

I believe it had 6000hrs in service and came out of the last overhaul right at service limits.

 

[Landing Fees]

Resale value.

I would be curious to hear why people would consider resale value as a primary reason to spend 70K on an engine vs 40K. If I put a factory new engine in my plane I wouldn't increase the value by 70K but by a fraction of that minus the hours I put on it, plus labor. Similarly with avionics, you don't immediately recoup the cost of avionics but overall I understand the value of upgrading but not because I am thinking about resale but because I like buttons.

So does my $105K R182 become a $155K R182 after I put in a new engine? Is the general consensus that you put in a new engine in just to only lose 20K vs walking away at $105 to let somebody put in a new engine. We have a partnership and we are supposed to individually re-value our plane every year and come to some consensus. Vref is not your friend when your engine has made it well past TBO so it is hard to decide on numbers, but unlike a house (where 5K in carpet can net you another 30K) planes cost more over the years due to rarity vs your investment in equipment.

 

[idahoflier]

I would be curious to hear why people would consider resale value as a primary reason to spend 70K on an engine vs 40K.

I can't speak for the person you quoted, but I think the context was overhaul vs rebuild. In that case the difference in cost between the two is about $4K (unless you're doing a field overhaul where you can save substantially more $ on the overhaul). Some people will view a "0" time logbook as worth more $...

 

[Shuswap BC]

When buying a used plane I do like to know who rebuilt the engine, and what other items around it were replaced, to my thinking that makes a difference. When I bought my current plane it was used, and had 126 hours on the overhauled engine and prop. But it wasn't a factory job, or a top shop, just a regular run of the mill place, so i didn't consider it fabulous, just average. When it was getting on in age and hours, I opted to order a brand new factory engine ahead of time, but also the accessories around it such as starter, mags, alternator, exhaust, and prop. Once everything was here and ready to go in, I then had it all installed at the same time as the annual to minimize downtime. We all make our own choices, and do what works for us. For me it was piece of mind knowing that the engine was brand new, and not just done by Uncle Bob's engines and craft brewery down on 4th Avenue.

 

[tspear]

I would be curious to hear why people would consider resale value as a primary reason to spend 70K on an engine vs 40K. If I put a factory new engine in my plane I wouldn't increase the value by 70K but by a fraction of that minus the hours I put on it, plus labor. Similarly with avionics, you don't immediately recoup the cost of avionics but overall I understand the value of upgrading but not because I am thinking about resale but because I like buttons.

So does my $105K R182 become a $155K R182 after I put in a new engine? Is the general consensus that you put in a new engine in just to only lose 20K vs walking away at $105 to let somebody put in a new engine. We have a partnership and we are supposed to individually re-value our plane every year and come to some consensus. Vref is not your friend when your engine has made it well past TBO so it is hard to decide on numbers, but unlike a house (where 5K in carpet can net you another 30K) planes cost more over the years due to rarity vs your investment in equipment.

It varies by plane. So using your example:
Field overhauls seem to give you almost no credit. Basically they are treated like regular maintenance. Basically you would lose between 30-40K.
By a boutique/well known shop you get about 25% back. Basically you lose 30K.
Reman, seems be around 60% back. Basically you lose 28K.

A reman; for some reason, also seems to sell easier.

Tim

 

[Landing Fees]

It varies by plane. So using your example:
Field overhauls seem to give you almost no credit. Basically they are treated like regular maintenance. Basically you would lose between 30-40K.
By a boutique/well known shop you get about 25% back. Basically you lose 30K.
Reman, seems be around 60% back. Basically you lose 28K.

A reman; for some reason, also seems to sell easier.

Tim

Just a question because we will eventually need an engine be it tomorrow or in another 1000 hours. This is the first plane I have ever been a partner in and it wasn't a hard sell but the plane was almost at TBO when I bought into the partnership. Now, we are well beyond TBO, this engine (from the yellow tag) was overhauled at Lycoming in 94. So now we are looking at timed out too. We looked to sell a share to a third and some really smart people would "never fly a plane past TBO". Regardless, this engine wasn't zero-timed but came with 1914 on the engine and TSMOH 0. As it turns out it would be what you would consider "run out" when my partner bought it so no doubt a good deal at the time for the right person. He put on 250 hours, then I joined and put another 450 and so we have an engine that is amazing but not "worth" much. She came out of annual Wednesday and I flew an hour on Thursday.

 

[tspear]

@Landing Fees

So what is the question?

Tim

 

[Geosync]

Good comments. I’d add that some aftermarket engine shop overhauls are better than a factory rebuild. Those in the know would hold a RAM or Tim’s Aircraft Engine overhaul(example, not trying to pick a fight) in higher regard than a Lycoming rebuild. In my mechanic days, a good engine shop OH was always preferred over the factory, which as mentioned can have terrible customer service, gremlins that go unanswered, and an overall aloofness for their customers paying $50k+ for their product.

 

[Landing Fees]

@Landing Fees

So what is the question?

Tim

More of a request for opinions on why people think an engine is worth almost twice as much because it is redone one way or another. I said “it’s just a question” hopefully implying that it wasn’t questioning you. I am questioning the idea that somehow because Vref says so and everybody believes it that it is true. Is it true that value is assigned by the initial outlay of cash vs data (beyond anecdotal) that says that factory new is worth X because it lasts longer and is more powerful. My experience with one engine is anecdotal and I cruise around at 53% power and 7500 feet most of the time.

 

[tspear]

Good comments. I’d add that some aftermarket engine shop overhauls are better than a factory rebuild. Those in the know would hold a RAM or Tim’s Aircraft Engine overhaul(example, not trying to pick a fight) in higher regard than a Lycoming rebuild. In my mechanic days, a good engine shop OH was always preferred over the factory, which as mentioned can have terrible customer service, gremlins that go unanswered, and an overall aloofness for their customers paying $50k+ for their product.

Agree. But the market does not price it that way.....

Tim

 

[tspear]

More of a request for opinions on why people think an engine is worth almost twice as much because it is redone one way or another. I said “it’s just a question” hopefully implying that it wasn’t questioning you. I am questioning the idea that somehow because Vref says so and everybody believes it that it is true. Is it true that value is assigned by the initial outlay of cash vs data (beyond anecdotal) that says that factory new is worth X because it lasts longer and is more powerful. My experience with one engine is anecdotal and I cruise around at 53% power and 7500 feet most of the time.

My estimates are based on looking at the market, specifically for Cirrus and Mooney; and talking to dealers about actual prices sold.
Personally, I think the market is "dumb" and selects factory having a higher value than some very nice engine shops. But what the hell do I know?

The only real explication I have seen is that so many engines are so old (way beyond calendar TBO); that factory has an edge because as much as we gripe about the engines being out of date. Lycoming and CMI have gradually made many changes to the engines over the years. Only the factory can incorporate most of the changes.

Tim

 

[MooneyDriver78]

How many times can you overhaul an engine before you have to replace the crank which runs about $12000?


Tom

 

[hindsight2020]

more like 7-8k.

 

[Salty]

How many times can you overhaul an engine before you have to replace the crank which runs about $12000?


Tom

Lots of variables in that answer. As a data point, mine will probably only get one or two more. It had a prop strike and went 2800 hours before it’s first overhaul so it had to be turned down to 6 thousands on the mains. Or, it may get no more, or 5 more. Impossible to know.

 

[tspear]

How many times can you overhaul an engine before you have to replace the crank which runs about $12000?
Tom

Time and corrosion tend to be larger factors than anything else.
There was a C172 used as a trainer for a couple decades was on its fifth overhaul of the original factory engine in the shop when I replaced the engine in a SR20 (cracked case).

Tim

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The difference in price?.....Brand strength. Folks will always pay more for the OEM than a field OH. And there's something psychological about getting that zero timed log that also does it. The work is nearly identical....the parts in both cases can be used. True that the rebuild will have parts to "new" limits....but one could argue that there is very little difference. In fact, I'll argue that I'd rather have parts with "history", a good history, than new.

 

[Landing Fees]

The difference in price?.....Brand strength. Folks will always pay more for the OEM than a field OH. And there's something psychological about getting that zero timed log that also does it. The work is nearly identical....the parts in both cases can be used. True that the rebuild will have parts to "new" limits....but one could argue that there is very little difference. In fact, I'll argue that I'd rather have parts with "history", a good history, than new.

I understand brand strength, then I see that some brands have had some big SBs recently for major items like crankshafts. Throw in TBO hysteria and you get a lot of confusion and wasted money.

What I find far more interesting is that pilots, who seem to be cheaper than most, would put "Bobs Field OH Shoppe" engine into their plane if they had to replace it, sell the plane and then demand a huge price cut if they wanted to buy a plane that had a "Bobs Field OH Shoppe" engine in it. We dodged an expensive bullet last year when I brought back our plane from the other side of the continental divide and unbeknownst to me I had stuck a valve and bent a rod. Sent off the engine data to Saavy and they couldn't tell when it happened. Only way I ended up knowing (this was right after annual) was oil in a different spot than normal. My partner wanted to scrap the engine, instead we reamed the valves and kept chugging, maybe that is why he doesn't fly much anymore...I am almost afraid to switch engines as I have spend many a lonely night accumulating night xc hours in the middle of nowhere behind this one.

 

[Salty]

I understand brand strength, then I see that some brands have had some big SBs recently for major items like crankshafts. Throw in TBO hysteria and you get a lot of confusion and wasted money.

What I find far more interesting is that pilots, who seem to be cheaper than most, would put "Bobs Field OH Shoppe" engine into their plane if they had to replace it, sell the plane and then demand a huge price cut if they wanted to buy a plane that had a "Bobs Field OH Shoppe" engine in it. We dodged an expensive bullet last year when I brought back our plane from the other side of the continental divide and unbeknownst to me I had stuck a valve and bent a rod. Sent off the engine data to Saavy and they couldn't tell when it happened. Only way I ended up knowing (this was right after annual) was oil in a different spot than normal. My partner wanted to scrap the engine, instead we reamed the valves and kept chugging, maybe that is why he doesn't fly much anymore...I am almost afraid to switch engines as I have spend many a lonely night accumulating night xc hours in the middle of nowhere behind this one.

Some people look for perfection (sometimes looking at the wrong criteria), some people buy on emotion (pretty plane with a nice price), and then there are those in between. You can never make them all happy.

I chose to do a field overhaul with my mechanic. I was not sure it was a good idea at first, but I now think we did a better job than many shops would do, and I know the documentation is better. I have a three inch binder of documentation with part numbers, serial numbers, everything you could possibly want to know about what is in the engine. And I know 100% for sure it’s accurate since I triple checked it all personally. You aren’t going to get that from any shop.

 

[Stephen Shore]

I am not going to jump in the debate between factory rebuilt vs overhauled - good information posted already.

But...alot has to do with your specific situation. I have a first run Lycoming IO-540 at 2,016 since new hours - original to the airplane. Lycoming gave me a great deal for this engine as a core for a factory rebuilt engine. I talked to them at Oshkosh where I found out about the offer.

Remember - everything is negotiable so if you have a first run engine as a core then you have a strong position to start from.

My engine is scheduled to be delivered mid January.