Reasonable IR checkride question?

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mryan75

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mryan75
While comparing DMEs with another pilot in my club, he mentioned some questions this guy had asked him on his IR ride. Do you guys think these are reasonable questions?

- Where in the FARs does it indicate whether your airplane is FIKI certified? (DME asked, is your plane certified for known or forecast icing? Answer: No. follow-up question was the above)

- What is the distance of the medium intensity runway approach lights to either the touchdown zone or the end of the runway (don't remember which)?

There were a few other what I and the other pilot considered somewhat dickish questions that I can't quite remember. The DME failed the guy 20 minutes into the oral, on the basis of the above questions.

Does this seem reasonable to you guys? I mean I get that the DME can ask you anything. Just looking for opinions.

Thanks!
 
I got a couple of tough questions on mine, but the difference was, I didn't get failed on them for not knowing them right off the bat. Could be the DPE is "dickish", could be your buddy is trying to save face for not knowing something he should have known, and is emphasizing these questions.
 
You mean DPE?

The first question is inane. The FARs don't list if you're plane is approved or not. In fact, there's nothing in the FARs until you get up to large or turbine aircraft or are operating as a commercial operator that specifically precludes it. If your aircraft is approved for known icing it will be in the aircraft operating limitations (the manual or a supplement). If your operating limitations say no flight into known/forecast icing, that is binding as well. All this is basic 91.9 stuff.

The second question as stated is inane as well. Is he asking how far out from the runway the lights go? It's 2400'. At 1000' out there's the three light bar. Basic stuff from the documents that you should have with you. One might quibble if the student knew where to immediately find it.
 
Ouch. The approach lighting question is on the first page of chapter 2 of the AIM. Maybe the DPE was just throwing that out there to see if the pilot knew where to find the info. I would have definitely had to look it up if it was asked.

The one about FIKI and the FARs for YOUR airplane is definitely a gotcha question. On my private, my DPE kept insisting that I needed to think about if the compass was electrically driven. If not, as I emphatically kept saying, then why did it have an electrical wire running to it?!? I said said for lighting at night, but he kept harping on it so much, I started questioning myself! Thankfully I didn't take the bait.
 
flyingron said:
You mean DPE?

The first question is inane. The FARs don't list if you're plane is approved or not. In fact, there's nothing in the FARs until you get up to large or turbine aircraft or are operating as a commercial operator that specifically precludes it. If your aircraft is approved for known icing it will be in the aircraft operating limitations (the manual or a supplement). If your operating limitations say no flight into known/forecast icing, that is binding as well. All this is basic 91.9 stuff.

The second question as stated is inane as well. Is he asking how far out from the runway the lights go? It's 2400'. At 1000' out there's the three light bar. Basic stuff from the documents that you should have with you. One might quibble if the student knew where to immediately find it.
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So basically kind of picky questions, but it's reasonable for the DPE to expect the applicant to at least know where to find the answers?

And FWIW, the DPE said the answer to the second question could be found in the aircraft's type certificate.
 
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The oral is open book. That's any publication you bring, any notes you have and even Google:

Comes right up 91.527 and AC 91-74B

You aren't expected to know every answer but you are expected to be able to find it.
 
mryan75 said:
.....but it's reasonable for the DPE to expect the applicant to at least know where to find the answers?....
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Yes, it's reasonable. More than reasonable. No matter how ticky tack the question itself is, you should know the format of the FAR's and the AIM and know how to use the Table of Contents and index to find the answer to any question in a reasonable amount of time.
 
My opinion is this DPE is "dickish". Yes, you should know where to find this information but I would consider the FIKI question a "trick" question which in my opinion, is not acceptable. This is the kind of guy that would ask where you put the deicing fluid in Cessna 150. Knowing what I know now, I would take all the time I needed to find the answers to these questions. There is no time limit. If it takes 3 hours for 1 question, so be it. He'll get sick of waiting and get back to some more "standard" questioning.
 
aftCG said:
The oral is open book. That's any publication you bring, any notes you have and even Google:

Comes right up 91.527 and AC 91-74B

You aren't expected to know every answer but you are expected to be able to find it.
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91.527 has ZERO applicability to someone flying a light single.
 
flyingron said:
91.527 has ZERO applicability to someone flying a light single.
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Section A is pretty important....

And its "Instrument Airplane", not "Instrument - Light Single Engine Airplane"... Questions about icing and FIKI have always been fair game, not that most DPE's expect you to know everything.
 
Asking about flight into known icing isn't "dickish." It's been a specific call out of SPECIAL EMPHASIS for quite some time now. One should EXPECT some question about it.
The question as the original poster related to it is sort of nonsense, but I suspect it might have got garbled in the communication. Asking someone how they would know if their plane was approved for flight into known icing (or something related to that) is certainly fair game.
 
ja_user said:
Section A is pretty important....

And its "Instrument Airplane", not "Instrument - Light Single Engine Airplane"... Questions about icing and FIKI have always been fair game, not that most DPE's expect you to know everything.
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And that's not what I said, nor what was relayed in the original post: "Where in the FARs does it indicate whether your airplane is FIKI certified? "
Unless he showed up in a large or turbine aircraft the answer to "your airplane" is not going to be 91.527. That's just as wrong as anything else. 91.45 is the closest answer to a FAR and it just says follow the aircraft's operating limitations.
 
flyingron said:
Asking about flight into known icing isn't "dickish." It's been a specific call out of SPECIAL EMPHASIS for quite some time now. One should EXPECT some question about it.
The question as the original poster related to it is sort of nonsense, but I suspect it might have got garbled in the communication. Asking someone how they would know if their plane was approved for flight into known icing (or something related to that) is certainly fair game.
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The way the applicant looked at it, and I tend to agree, is that he knew his airplane is not certified for FIKI, he knew how to find he weather and PIREPs to know if that was indeed the situation, and he for damn sure was t going anywhere near known or forecast ice in a 180. Asking about FIKI is perfectly fair, and I agree should be expected. I just found the context surprising.
 
I'm not sure if the DPE was a dick or not, but it did get me thinking. On my iPad (and my computer), I have the latest FAR, AIM, PHAK, POH (and other plane specific manuals) and Chart User Guide. What other publications do you all peruse to stay current or study?
 
The runway light question is idiotic. Why would anyone need this information memorized?
The icing question is reasonable, given that so many accidents occur due to icing. However, asking "where in the FAR does it say that" is purposefully misleading the student. It would have been more reasonable to ask "how do you find out if your airplane is approved for flight into known icing conditions"
 
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mryan75 said:
While comparing DMEs with another pilot in my club, he mentioned some questions this guy had asked him on his IR ride. Do you guys think these are reasonable questions?

- Where in the FARs does it indicate whether your airplane is FIKI certified? (DME asked, is your plane certified for known or forecast icing? Answer: No. follow-up question was the above)

- What is the distance of the medium intensity runway approach lights to either the touchdown zone or the end of the runway (don't remember which)?

There were a few other what I and the other pilot considered somewhat dickish questions that I can't quite remember. The DME failed the guy 20 minutes into the oral, on the basis of the above questions.

Does this seem reasonable to you guys? I mean I get that the DME can ask you anything. Just looking for opinions.

Thanks!
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Both those questions are fair. Your plane is likely placarded about known icing if not it is in the POH. The ALS is part of the approach system. Knowing the distances from the threshold and what is required if the approach lights are not in service are relevant.

Also the visibility requirements for the approach is flight visibility. If you don’t know lighting distances, how do you make those estimates?
 
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FlyBoyAndy said:
I'm not sure if the DPE was a dick or not, but it did get me thinking. On my iPad (and my computer), I have the latest FAR, AIM, PHAK, POH (and other plane specific manuals) and Chart User Guide. What other publications do you all peruse to stay current or study?
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You should read and know cold the Instrument Flying Handbook and Instrument Procedures Handbook.'

There are probably a few more. I'd make sure I knew the stuff that the ACS references.
 
Did he forget to bring the donuts?

Those sounds like forgot to bring the donuts questions.
 
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