Really Cold Start in the Middle of Nowhere

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
30,006
Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
I've got a potential trip coming up where I'll be heading to Northern Quebec in early January. I can't imagine that place will be warm at all.

Both the Aztec and the 310 have engine heaters (Aztec has a Reiff system and the 310 has a Tanis system being installed as we speak). Both do the cylinders as well as the oil sump, so the whole engine gets a good pre-heat going. Of course, this requires that you be able to plug the thing in.

When I went to this airport before, it was hard to get ahold of the people who worked there, I never saw their faces, and of course they didn't speak English. It's a 3200 ft gravel strip in the middle of nowhere. I imagine there would have to be an exterior outlet somewhere (but didn't look for one last time I was there, not expecting to be returning in January). While I figure I'll be able to plug the plane in without an issue, this brought up an interesting question: what to do if you can't plug the plane in?

I had a few ideas, along the lines of bringing a portable generator (fuel is easy since you have 100LL readily available in the plane if nothing else), but I'm wondering if anyone else had a simple way that they dealt with this in backwoods areas.
 
Take the oil and spark plugs with you and keep them in the hotel room (or wherever you are staying)?
 
bring an extension cord so you only have to find an outlet eh? if dat dont work, you can find some kinda tuuk for de engines, and den start a fire and bring de warm embers under de cowling you know....

go grab a double double and timbits at de tim hortons and wait for de humidex to go up or de chinook to come tru.... you could be waiting around past de habs run for de cup, but should be a good time eh?
 
If you are unable to verify that you've got electricity, and cannot count on the FBO staff to be there... I would plan on bringing a gas/forced air type heater, like a Red Dragon.




Ted DuPuis said:
I've got a potential trip coming up where I'll be heading to Northern Quebec in early January. I can't imagine that place will be warm at all.

Both the Aztec and the 310 have engine heaters (Aztec has a Reiff system and the 310 has a Tanis system being installed as we speak). Both do the cylinders as well as the oil sump, so the whole engine gets a good pre-heat going. Of course, this requires that you be able to plug the thing in.

When I went to this airport before, it was hard to get ahold of the people who worked there, I never saw their faces, and of course they didn't speak English. It's a 3200 ft gravel strip in the middle of nowhere. I imagine there would have to be an exterior outlet somewhere (but didn't look for one last time I was there, not expecting to be returning in January). While I figure I'll be able to plug the plane in without an issue, this brought up an interesting question: what to do if you can't plug the plane in?

I had a few ideas, along the lines of bringing a portable generator (fuel is easy since you have 100LL readily available in the plane if nothing else), but I'm wondering if anyone else had a simple way that they dealt with this in backwoods areas.
Click to expand...
 
Here is a video of a compact backcountry type preheater that you can make:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
nyoung said:
If you are unable to verify that you've got electricity, and cannot count on the FBO staff to be there... I would plan on bringing a gas/forced air type heater, like a Red Dragon.
Click to expand...

How good is a propane heater up north when it's not just cold, but really bleepin cold?
 
This is how I do it. I like the cabin toasty, too, and so to the gyros and gauges.
 

Attachments

  • IMG00030-20101124-0927.jpg
    IMG00030-20101124-0927.jpg
    68 KB · Views: 130
Yep. Airliners have APUs, no reason you can't as well. Those generators are remarkably compact, now.
 
ntbjounin said:
bring an extension cord so you only have to find an outlet eh? if dat dont work, you can find some kinda tuuk for de engines, and den start a fire and bring de warm embers under de cowling you know....

go grab a double double and timbits at de tim hortons and wait for de humidex to go up or de chinook to come tru.... you could be waiting around past de habs run for de cup, but should be a good time eh?
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
Bob Noel said:
How good is a propane heater up north when it's not just cold, but really bleepin cold?
Click to expand...

Propane stops flowing from the bottle at low temperatures. Its vapor pressure drops to zero at around -43°F. Useless.

We stop flying at -25°C. Some operators go well below that, but you gotta be smart. Keep that engine and battery warm. Don't prime too much and prime immediately before starting. The fuel will otherwise coalesce on the walls of the induction system very quickly and run down, creating the risk of fire or flooding the engine. If the engine barks a few times and then won't catch, you've likely frosted the sparkplugs and it's not going to go unless the engine is thoroughly preheated. If it starts don't let the RPM get too high at first; the oil is thick and doesn't pump well, and you could starve the bearings and lunch the engine. The oil should be light, too. We use 15W50. The Gyros really hate the cold and are likely to suffer bearing damage unless the cabin is warmed up. And, most important, don't bother flying into the cold unless you're well prepared to spend some time outside in the event of a forced landing somewhere remote. Hypothermia kills way more flyers than the accidents themselves. Rescuers find uninjured corpses dressed in business suits. Dumb.

Dan
 
I like the idea of a portable generator, they are very compact these days and you should have plenty of fuel available. While you're at it (if you can spare the space) bring along an electric space heater for the cabin.
 
Steve Foley said:
But you have to preheat the generator engine before you start it. :D
Click to expand...

I used to have a snow blower that wouldn't start when it was below freezing...

Anyone remember what aircraft (WW-II vintage) it was that was found / repaired in the middle of northern nowhere and was lost on the first takeoff due to a fire started by a protable generator running in the back?

Edit: B29 in Greenland...
http://www.ww2f.com/military-history/44092-b-29-frozen-time.html

Includes links to the videos. (Assuming you want to watch a B-29 burn to the ground.)
 
Last edited:
AdamZ said:
You can buy a very inexpensive generator at Harbour Freight for just over $100

http://www.harborfreight.com/800-rated-watts-900-max-watts-portable-generator-66619.html

Or you can probably find one used online at Craigs List or on Ebay as well.
Click to expand...

This seems like the route to go.

I had a portable propane preheater (forget th brand, but it worked well) when I had my Cherokee but never wanted to fly with the propane tank in the plane so I just used it at my airport. The Tiger has a complete Reiff preheat system so I just plug it in now, and sold the propane heater with the Cherokee.

Agree on heating the cabin prior to flight also.

On the Russian front the Germans used to preheat the ME-109's by lighting avgas in a pan underneath the engine. I don't recommend this method. :)
 
Portable Generator and a 100W Shop Light. Plug in the engine heaters as soon as you land and start up the generator, keep the 100W shop light in the cabin under the panel. Sounds like a possible solution.

How long do you plan to be shut down ?
 
I've done the charcoal briquettes under the engine when someone swiped my extension cord for the block heater in my truck one fine December day in Regina...
 
SCCutler said:
Yep. Airliners have APUs, no reason you can't as well. Those generators are remarkably compact, now.
Click to expand...

Ding,Ding, Ding, Ding, winner !

ya got the electric heater use it.
 
I'll be heading to Northern Quebec in early January
Click to expand...

Cancel that trip! Are you freeking crazy, Ted?!?! :D

Have you seen IcePilots??

(I was in southern Quebec in December and it was M50!!!
[M50C =M50F] and they shut the ski lift down because they thought the steel was going to break!)
 
M50C == really ****ing cold, and that's all you need to know :D
 
If it were me. I would buy and bring two generators. Another generator would sound awful cheap when your first one fails you.

Given their price and size it seems like cheap insurance to avoid freezing your ass off in the middle of nowhere.
 
jesse said:
If it were me. I would buy and bring two generators. Another generator would sound awful cheap when your first one fails you.

Given their price and size it seems like cheap insurance to avoid freezing your ass off in the middle of nowhere.
Click to expand...

Have to say I agree with this. Damn harsh environment up there.
 
dmccormack said:
Here's a solution: I speak French fluently (My family is French-Canadian). Take me along!
Click to expand...

No Frenchman I ever met could understand half of what the residents of Quebec were saying.

Ive done a fair amount of work up around Sept 'Iles, P.Q.
About all I can do in French is order at Timmy's, McD's and PFK. (Poulet Frits Kentucky :goofy:)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I used to have a snow blower that wouldn't start when it was below freezing...

Anyone remember what aircraft (WW-II vintage) it was that was found / repaired in the middle of northern nowhere and was lost on the first takeoff due to a fire started by a protable generator running in the back?

Edit: B29 in Greenland...
http://www.ww2f.com/military-history/44092-b-29-frozen-time.html

Includes links to the videos. (Assuming you want to watch a B-29 burn to the ground.)
Click to expand...

As seem to I recall it wasn't really a portable generator, but rather the APU for B-29. And I also seem to recall that they had a habit of catching fire to the point that usually a crewmember was back monitoring it with a fire extinguisher.

I seem to recall this was a bit of an disagreement between the FAA and the recovery crew for FIFI as to whether the APU monitor was required crew. After the Alaska incident it seemed pretty obvious that this was a required crew station.

Brian
 
Here is what I did when learning to fly a 172 tied down outdoors during a Canadian winter, 1977:
I have posted elsewhere in the past, so don't hold my feet to the fire if I get some of it slightly different.

Night before, take out battery, drain oil from (it has to be a warm) engine. Store battery and oil next to furnace in basement, keep them at 80F.
Arrive 5am (pitch black out, 15kts of biting wind,) bundled up with 3 long-underwear, sweats, snowpants, 3 tshirts, 4 sweaters, jacket, windbreaker, heavy winter parka, hat and hood (balaclava better), extra socks, skidoo boots, gloves AND mitts on, with thermos of hot chocolate.
Leave car running with heat on full, start homemade propane heater going after 10 tries with matches in breeze, til it goes whoof and scorches the hair off your frostbitten hands. It howls like a turbine it is making so much heat, but it is too cold to worry about burning anything up.
Start hacking at drifts around airplane with spade, making a path for the 3 wheels, and a place for car to move in close.
Broom and scrape the 3" of snow that has crusted onto the upper surface of the airplane. Realize how huge the surface area of an airplane really is. Take frequent breaks to put hands in front of car heater, to check to see if you can still feel your face, sips from thermos if your lips still work.
Get everything ready for the first start attempt (you know from experience it won't go on the first try) keys in, move stuff away, pull prop through, install battery and oil, hook up car battery booster cables, shut down preheater, hop onto the hard-as-an-iceblock seat, crank while priming (talk about a stiff primer).
One blade, 5 blades, a couple of kicks and then nothing. Watch your voluminous fog-breath fill the cabin and completely frost the windows as you curse a blue streak realizing the plugs have frosted. Try cranking a few more times with fuel....or dry to confirm. Sure enough. Get out and pull top plugs, (you've tried all the other remedies recommended, none work), clean them (now that is cold work, fingers on aluminum in the cold north) then clean and warm them up somewhat, reinstall, cowl back on.
Reheat more, then crank again. Finally a start; huge plume of loose snow blowing all around the airplane. Get out (its tied down, and still frozen in the ice anyway), disconnect batt cables in the 100mph breeze, close access door, move car back, put heater away, then clear more snow, avoid prop where possible. Twilight is upon us, instructor will be here soon. Shut it down, chop ice to release tires, untie, scrape windows. Get inspected for tissue loss on ears, nose, if no gangrene, go fly!
 
ROFLMAO, Dave. I think that post needs to be made a sticky :)
 
Keith Lane said:
No Frenchman I ever met could understand half of what the residents of Quebec were saying.

Ive done a fair amount of work up around Sept 'Iles, P.Q.
About all I can do in French is order at Timmy's, McD's and PFK. (Poulet Frits Kentucky :goofy:)
Click to expand...

Je suis Quebecois!!

My family is from Quebec City area (there since 1650). The French is more comprehensible then the habitants outside the cities.
 
Everskyward said:
Is that why you moved to Texas? :D
Click to expand...

I tell everyone that is the reason....but the truth lay elsewhere! Flying in January here is a huge bonus however. In fact, being able to fly at all is.

ROFLMAO, Dave. I think that post needs to be made a sticky :)
Click to expand...

It was definitely a test to see how committed I was. No, not every flight was like that, we had some nice days too.
I sure hope Ted gets a decent spell of weather for his trip. Watcha haulin' Ted? Sled dogs?!
 
Ya know, Ted, I thought I'd like to join you on one of your adventures.......

But you can count me out on this one! :rofl:

Call me when you're headed south!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top