Really bad landing at my home drome today. I almost dialed 911

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
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I was over putting some wax on the bird, and it was breezy and a bit unstable. Saw a Cardinal coming in, looked high on appr but makeable. Sadly, he was also fast due to the gusty wind, almost down the runway. Well, he passed the threshold by a good bit, and was past half way down before he pushed the nose down and 'bam!' bounced it on the nose gear, then the mains hit, then it all went back up again and came down on the nose again, then it ballooned and started to settle back as he was 3/4 down the runway. Lucky at that point he gave up, pushed the power back in and slogged back in the air for another try.

Second attempt was much better. In fact, it was pretty flat, pulled the power out over the numbers, decent flare, touched the mains and it all stuck.

I was sure the first one was going in the weeds, and then the back yard off the end of the runway today. I really wish pilots would take some TW training, or just go back to basics of energy mgmt. It was sad to watch that. And I find out later this person is a inst student! Gulp...
 
Being a low-time guy myself, I've never experienced a landing that truly frightened me. I hope that if I'm ever in the situation that person was in that I would make the right call as well. Abort and live to fight another day.

Nobody is perfect.

You mentioned that he is an instrument student. There was another thread regarding instrument approach speeds. I learned in that thread that instrument approaches were typically 5 kts or so higher than a normal VFR approach? Energy management then becomes paramount. If you aren't spot on with your landing things can go very bad very quickly.
 
woodchucker said:
Being a low-time guy myself, I've never experienced a landing that truly frightened me. I hope that if I'm ever in the situation that person was in that I would make the right call as well. Abort and live to fight another day.

Nobody is perfect.

You mentioned that he is an instrument student. There was another thread regarding instrument approach speeds. I learned in that thread that instrument approaches were typically 5 kts or so higher than a normal VFR approach? Energy management then becomes paramount. If you aren't spot on with your landing things can go very bad very quickly.
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Learning to fly the approach at a selected speed and then land safely is part of getting the instrument ticket. It isn't surprising that someone may have a little trouble with the transition/landing and hopefully they learned a lesson about diving for the runway.

As you note, nobody is perfect. I'll add that none of us are born knowing this stuff (except Jesse).

Work with good instructors and practice, practice, practice.
 
Anyone can have a bad day,he should have gone around after the first bounce save the aircraft needless punishment,he learned a valuable lesson for sure,flying is all about learning.
 
I was once a pax in a Cardinal FG where the pilot (and owner) did something like the OP describes, with similar results. She approaches the runway, then pushes the nose down to force the bird on. Of course, this resulted in hitting the nosewheel first, then a bounce, then incipient PIO as she kept trying to do the same thing, force the plane to land. One bounce, two bounces... finally I said "go around" as I knew the next one would likely be a prop strike or worse. Fortunately, she did.

The next time around she was able to land, though she still exhibited the bad habit of pushing the nose down just before touchdown. I suggested that she sit tight for a while and maybe check out the landing gear for damage, but she said she was sure it was fine. It takes all kinds of pilots. One thing is for sure, I would not be interested in buying that plane after flying with her.

BTW this pilot was not an instrument student, she was actually instrument rated (and at the time, I was not), though I think she only had 200-300 hours or so. I had one or two pretty scary landings back when I had only 200 hours too. We keep flying, and if we don't die, eventually we learn.
 
so it was a really bad touch and go with an otherwise acceptable landing after the go around.
 
I saw a guy bring in a 172, final looked bad, went to watch the landing, HUUUGE PIOs, slammed the plane down and I thought that was that, still with a good clip he ended up going off the side of the runway, when he went in the dirt where the plane started to flip on it's nose, tail sticking straight up, somehow falls back to it's gear.

I ran over to a youngish indian pilot, I asked if he was OK, said he was and he looked fine, I asked if he needed to use my phone, guy says no, I asked if he thought the flight school would like to know their airplane was wrecked, he pulled his phone out and started making phone calls.

Once he had the plane off the runway and made his phone calls, I asked if this was one of his initial solo cross countries.......he said he already had his CPL and was just burning some time before going back "home" :hairraise:
 
MichiPilot said:
you almost dialed 911?
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I did. After the second bounce, I had the phone out and in my hand.

BTW, this was severe clear but windy, not an inst appr, solo pilot, not a training flight.
 
docmirror said:
I was over putting some wax on the bird, and it was breezy and a bit unstable. Saw a Cardinal coming in, looked high on appr but makeable. Sadly, he was also fast due to the gusty wind, almost down the runway. Well, he passed the threshold by a good bit, and was past half way down before he pushed the nose down and 'bam!' bounced it on the nose gear, then the mains hit, then it all went back up again and came down on the nose again, then it ballooned and started to settle back as he was 3/4 down the runway. Lucky at that point he gave up, pushed the power back in and slogged back in the air for another try.

Second attempt was much better. In fact, it was pretty flat, pulled the power out over the numbers, decent flare, touched the mains and it all stuck.

I was sure the first one was going in the weeds, and then the back yard off the end of the runway today. I really wish pilots would take some TW training, or just go back to basics of energy mgmt. It was sad to watch that. And I find out later this person is a inst student! Gulp...
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That was porpoising (nose gear first). The big danger is tearing up the prop and possibly worse. One hard bounce should be enough to indicate a go-around, but some don't believe it, drive the nose down and make it worse.
 
I was going to sneak a look at his prop tips but he parked in front of the FBO and was inside chatting about something so I deferred. There was no sound of any metal, and no smoke or dust up from the landing, but it still could have hit, I just don't think so.
 
I've porpoised a few landings myself and I haven't always gone around after the first bounce. ****ty landings happen.

I've seen them and done them and I've learned that they are usually the result of pressing on after a bad final approach (too high, too fast, no time to get stabilized, etc). It would be nice if pilots could recognize the need for a GA sooner and just commit to it, but we often figure we can salvage it. I've done that. And some of my crappiest landings have come in benign wind situations when I get lax and screw up the simple flare. I'll just keep practicing. :dunno:
 
docmirror said:
I was sure the first one was going in the weeds, and then the back yard off the end of the runway today. I really wish pilots would take some TW training, or just go back to basics of energy mgmt. It was sad to watch that. And I find out later this person is a inst student! Gulp...
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After they do, send them here. Nothing beats a dust devil that starts on the threshold (i.e. invisible without the dirt). I've hit two nearing the flare that turned me 90* and threw the plane to the runway edge ... am sure there were several fingers on the 911 speed dial for those:lol:
 
docmirror said:
I was going to sneak a look at his prop tips but he parked in front of the FBO and was inside chatting about something so I deferred. There was no sound of any metal, and no smoke or dust up from the landing, but it still could have hit, I just don't think so.
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It's easy to bend the firewall in a Cardinal, even with no external signs of damage. :(
 
docmirror said:
I was over putting some wax on the bird, and it was breezy and a bit unstable. Saw a Cardinal coming in, looked high on appr but makeable. Sadly, he was also fast due to the gusty wind, almost down the runway. Well, he passed the threshold by a good bit, and was past half way down before he pushed the nose down and 'bam!' bounced it on the nose gear, then the mains hit, then it all went back up again and came down on the nose again, then it ballooned and started to settle back as he was 3/4 down the runway. Lucky at that point he gave up, pushed the power back in and slogged back in the air for another try.

Second attempt was much better. In fact, it was pretty flat, pulled the power out over the numbers, decent flare, touched the mains and it all stuck.

I was sure the first one was going in the weeds, and then the back yard off the end of the runway today. I really wish pilots would take some TW training, or just go back to basics of energy mgmt. It was sad to watch that. And I find out later this person is a inst student! Gulp...
Click to expand...

They call that "The Cardinal Crowhop." Was this at CRQ and do you know if it was a PlusOne plane?
 
The location and names will remain private. Sorry.
 
Not being smug at all, I've never PIOed, not once, even when I was a 0 time guy, it's not so much me having superhuman skills, as it is being tought right (and in a 7AC) from the start, now I've eaten up some runway having a little too much energy coming in, sure, but the whole PIO thing just makes me shake my head.
 
danhagan said:
After they do, send them here. Nothing beats a dust devil that starts on the threshold (i.e. invisible without the dirt). I've hit two nearing the flare that turned me 90* and threw the plane to the runway edge ... am sure there were several fingers on the 911 speed dial for those:lol:
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Ouch... that'd hurt.
 
Hard to see an airplane get treated like that.

Last summer I came in behind an instructional flight. Bounced on the nose, started to porpoise. Second hit collapsed the gear. they slide off to the side and I was able to safely land. I don't know why the instructor let it go that long. Then they closed the airport for a few hours to get it cleaned up.
 
A number of years ago a pilot at my airfield was landing a new to him Cardinal and got into a PIO. Went off the runway and ran into a road grader parked in the grass on the other side of the parallel taxiway. Survived with severe burns. Must be something with the cardinal's all flying stabilator that makes PIOs easy to get into for newbys. I've seem to have seen a number of incidents peculialr to Cardinals involving loss of control on landing.
 
Watched a guy today in calm conditions land and bounce his plane twice before settling down. I said to myself. "Next time he should just try for one landing each trip around the pattern, but maybe he's trying to get his landing numbers up in a time efficient way!"
 
James331 said:
Not being smug at all, I've never PIOed, not once, even when I was a 0 time guy, it's not so much me having superhuman skills, as it is being tought right (and in a 7AC) from the start, now I've eaten up some runway having a little too much energy coming in, sure, but the whole PIO thing just makes me shake my head.
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I bounced the champ a few times when I started. The instructor, an old pro, would add a little throttle, play with the stick and land it. He never went around. Later, having watched carefully what he had done, I saved four or five bounced landings in the Stearman , cross wind, etc. By doing the same thing, never went around. I think , if you know the airplane well , calming a bad landing down is not big deal. Again, the tail wheel instruction and subsequent many hours in one proved invaluable to me later on. I landed the mooney almost exactly the way I land the champ. Same when I was given the opportunity to land a shrike several times.
 
jspilot said:
Watched a guy today in calm conditions land and bounce his plane twice before settling down. I said to myself. "Next time he should just try for one landing each trip around the pattern, but maybe he's trying to get his landing numbers up in a time efficient way!"
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I've bounced landings in my Cardinal, in fact it happens fairly often. I think it's because my seat is so low that I can't see over the nose in the flare, making it hard to judge height above the runway, and on a wide runway it's hard for me to use the view out the side for that purpose. But I don't do multiple bounces and I've never PIOed that plane. One bounce, and I add a touch of power and pull back so that only the mains will touch next time. I can tell by feel that any other response (beside a go-around) will definitely result in porpoising - it's one of the unfortunate characteristics of the breed that Cardinals are prone to that.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I bounced the champ a few times when I started. The instructor, an old pro, would add a little throttle, play with the stick and land it. He never went around. Later, having watched carefully what he had done, I saved four or five bounced landings in the Stearman , cross wind, etc. By doing the same thing, never went around. I think , if you know the airplane well , calming a bad landing down is not big deal. Again, the tail wheel instruction and subsequent many hours in one proved invaluable to me later on. I landed the mooney almost exactly the way I land the champ. Same when I was given the opportunity to land a shrike several times.
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Indeed :)

I teach my tailwheel guys, if you bounce a 2 pointer, it turns into a three point or a go around, also used to teach the ratchet for trikes, once you start pulling it back you don't go back forwards, add to that looking at the infinity point and flying down the runway even after your wheels touch and the power has been out, all that type of stuff turns PIOs into something they would only read about.
 
As a low time pilot (immediately post-PPL) my instructor checked me out in a Cardinal. I had been flying a 150 the whole time but we had done a couple of xc's in the 177. I took it around the pattern and the sight picture was so different combined with poor airspeed control that it caused me to bounce once. Surprised, I bounced again then immediately recognized PIO and poured on the coals.

I've never forgotten that and have promised myself one day I will tackle that particular demon. There's a groove you get with your own airplane and I have that with my 172. I love the 177 so I'd like to make up for my ham-fistedness one day.
 
Basically all i ever do as an instructor to stop someone from totaling an airplane is grab the yoke and hold it back to the stops.

With ground effect you'd be shocked how well this works even if it seems like you have absolutely no energy.
 
azure said:
I've bounced landings in my Cardinal, in fact it happens fairly often. I think it's because my seat is so low that I can't see over the nose in the flare, making it hard to judge height above the runway, and on a wide runway it's hard for me to use the view out the side for that purpose. But I don't do multiple bounces and I've never PIOed that plane. One bounce, and I add a touch of power and pull back so that only the mains will touch next time. I can tell by feel that any other response (beside a go-around) will definitely result in porpoising - it's one of the unfortunate characteristics of the breed that Cardinals are prone to that.
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Can't they be landed full stall, and in your case get a booster seat?

I would think the Cardinal can be flared full stall like any other trike. Never flown one, but a flying stabilizer is pretty effective in the Cher 140.
 
docmirror said:
Can't they be landed full stall, and in your case get a booster seat?

I would think the Cardinal can be flared full stall like any other trike. Never flown one, but a flying stabilizer is pretty effective in the Cher 140.
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You can drag the tail tie down with the stall horn whining all the way till the mains touch.

I can land on the mains only, dump the flaps (2/3 or less) and powerup for touch & go without the nose gear ever touching.
 
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