Ready for Take-off!

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JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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When VFR, after the run-up, we have always taxied to the runway hold-short line, switched to tower and declared "ready for takeoff".

But this IFR thing is kind of new to us and the last time we did this, they came back, "Stand by, waiting for release". Fortunately, there was no one behind us that was also ready for take off.

Is it proper procedure to make that call while still in the run-up area? That is what we did yesterday, but another plane moved to the hold-short line in front of us while we were waiting, and sat there for a good 5 minutes after we were cleared for take off. Then we had to wait again.

Thinking about another current thread, I could have gotten nasty with the offending pilot, but I just kept quiet and filed it under the gathering of experience.
 
People are inconsiderate. Move to the line when you are ready to go. Can't comment on best place to wait for an ifr release
 
When you're ready for TO do as you did, tell tower . As far as a release, towers typically have to coordinate with the facility who owns the airspace, usually approach control but often could be the center, for your release. The other aircraft you're talking about may have been ready for TO and tower couldn't clear him right away for some reason, is that possibly what occurred? I'll add you were considerate to remain in the runup area while awaiting your release. Others taxing see you, and if they're ready to takeoff I think it's fine to go up to the hold line. If tower hasn't sequence anyone for takeoff or told them to hold on the taxiway etc then I feel the other pilot did no wrong.
 
For the short period I worked in a tower (military), we would often call for release as the aircraft started taxiing. Still, sometimes they were held. Quite often they were held for landing traffic. This gets really frustrating when it's clear blue day and that aircraft could simply have canceled IFR as soon as they had the field in site. What's even more frustrating is the guy, on the same type of day, going into an uncontrolled field that forgets to call safe on deck.

Of course, on nice days, you can typically opt to depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air.
 
mscard88 said:
When you're ready for TO do as you did, tell tower . As far as a release, towers typically have to coordinate with the facility who owns the airspace, usually approach control but often could be the center, for your release. The other aircraft you're talking about may have been ready for TO and tower couldn't clear him right away for some reason, is that possibly what occurred? I'll add you were considerate to remain in the runup area while awaiting your release. Others taxing see you, and if they're ready to takeoff I think it's fine to go up to the hold line. If tower hasn't sequence anyone for takeoff or told them to hold on the taxiway etc then I feel the other pilot did no wrong.
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I'm not sure why he waited so long. He didn't call tower for a very long time and it was a very slow day due to the weather. It seems a lot of times an instructor and student will conduct final briefings at the hold-short line, which is what I suspected. I don't blame the student but in that case, I think the instructor should be more courteous. We have a lot of flight training out of here.
 
JOhnH said:
When VFR, after the run-up, we have always taxied to the runway hold-short line, switched to tower and declared "ready for takeoff".

But this IFR thing is kind of new to us and the last time we did this, they came back, "Stand by, waiting for release". Fortunately, there was no one behind us that was also ready for take off.

Is it proper procedure to make that call while still in the run-up area? That is what we did yesterday, but another plane moved to the hold-short line in front of us while we were waiting, and sat there for a good 5 minutes after we were cleared for take off. Then we had to wait again.

Thinking about another current thread, I could have gotten nasty with the offending pilot, but I just kept quiet and filed it under the gathering of experience.
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Like many things, there are multiple ways to do it and you usually wouldn't be wrong however you do it (providing you don't block the access to the runway and you're not ready).

While IFR I personally do the run-up and when I'm about 2 min from completion I tell tower "I'll be ready in 2 min" (if there is other departing traffic for the same runway). That gives them a chance to set the departure sequence if needed (i.e. follow the second Cessna from the left, hold where you are till I get your release, etc) and obtain the IFR release from the controlling sector. If they don't sequence me, I pull up to the hold short when ready and announce ready.
 
JOhnH said:
I'm not sure why he waited so long. He didn't call tower for a very long time and it was a very slow day due to the weather. It seems a lot of times an instructor and student will conduct final briefings at the hold-short line, which is what I suspected. I don't blame the student but in that case, I think the instructor should be more courteous. We have a lot of flight training out of here.
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Ahh ok, I thought they had called ready AND were ready for takeoff. Personally I would have stopped on the taxiway so you had room to takeoff. Doing runup at the hold short line, unless there's no where else to do one or the runup area is full, is not considerate when other aircraft may depart prior. Yeah if the CFI makes a habit of briefing at the hold short, and holding up those ready to go, is inconsiderate. Maybe have a friendly chat with the CFI or flight school management and get their thoughts?
 
If your working from a non towered field ,I wait at the run up area.you get a void time,so insure ,your not going to be blocked by a student pilot,at the hold short line.then make the call
 
Yeah I agree with @frfly172 for non-towered. Was at KEQY, hard IFR and had to phone clearance and get my void time but I was at the runup area because I was ready to go. They asked how long I'd need and I said 15 seconds :). Gotta love Bluetooth headsets and phone pairing.

On the flip side with a towered field like KSRQ, I've been on VFR flights where I'm behind a 737 or some such plane and I'm hearing the "hold for release".

Sometimes tower will let you "cut" in line if you've got IFR traffic holding and they want to get VFR traffic out. Had that happen.

And..other times it's a complete ground stop due to massive amounts of traffic, or some other reason. I've been denied airspace entry a couple times around the Class C and D airspaces near here due to volume.
 
For towered airports I just taxi up and do all as normal, if they say waiting for release and I’m an I convieniant spot they can taxi you onto the runway and out of the way to resequence you, normally it’s just a few seconds, seldom is it a long while.

The only time I wouldn’t go up to the hold short line is if clearance gives you a release or “wheels up” time that’s a good distance in the future, but in all my time flying I’ve never gotten one of those in the GA world
 
JOhnH said:
When VFR, after the run-up, we have always taxied to the runway hold-short line, switched to tower and declared "ready for takeoff".
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I wouldn't do it that manner. In some places, taxiing to the hold short line prior to calling tower is considered rude, because you may be jumping in front of others who are next in sequence. You are also moving in the movement area without authorization. If others are in the runup area at a towered airport, I would suggest calling tower prior to going to the hold short line. I'd also suggest switching to tower frequency when you get into the runup so you can be aware of tower's sequencing plans.

At Palo Alto (KPAO), the procedure is to call tower from the runup area when ready, and they will determine who goes next. I was there a couple of weeks ago flying Young Eagles at airport day, and someone not familiar did as you did; he completed his runup and went ahead and taxied to the hold short line prior to calling tower, seemingly completely unaware that others, including me, had already checked in with tower. He got to wait a bit while we were given clearance before him to takeoff. I imagine he got the message about courtesy.

Now, at non-towered fields, it's whoever gets there first, but it still is polite to announce intentions prior to taking the runway if multiple planes are in the runup.

And to answer your question regarding IFR, it's definitly bad form to go up and block others prior to being instructed to do so by the tower. IFR releases have to be coordinated with departure control in busy airspaces, and sometimes it can take quite a while. I've had to wait 15 minutes sometimes. Not good to be blocking access to the runway during that time. Best practice at towered fields is to not make movements on the ground in the movement areas without ground control or tower giving you clearance to do so.


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On the other hand, I've been to fields where the tower doesn't want to hear from you until you are #1 at the line.

Generally, I don't call until I am ready to go (and that means that if the tower responds with cleared to takeoff, all I'm going to do is do a quick confirmation of instruments and push the power forward). If I suspect there are other people waiting ahead of me, I'll add "IN SEQUENCE" to my call. It's largely meaningless but it lets the tower and the people waiting know that I know I might not the be the first in line.
 
JOhnH said:
When VFR, after the run-up, we have always taxied to the runway hold-short line, switched to tower and declared "ready for takeoff".

But this IFR thing is kind of new to us and the last time we did this, they came back, "Stand by, waiting for release". Fortunately, there was no one behind us that was also ready for take off.

Is it proper procedure to make that call while still in the run-up area? That is what we did yesterday, but another plane moved to the hold-short line in front of us while we were waiting, and sat there for a good 5 minutes after we were cleared for take off. Then we had to wait again.

Thinking about another current thread, I could have gotten nasty with the offending pilot, but I just kept quiet and filed it under the gathering of experience.
Click to expand...


Don't be one of those guys holding up VFR departures because you decided to get your clearance at the hold short line. Next time that happens to me I will be asking for intersection departure (after verifying no one is preventing me from turning around and taxing backwards).
 
jimhorner said:
I wouldn't do it that manner. In some places, taxiing to the hold short line prior to calling tower is considered rude, because you may be jumping in front of others who are next in sequence. You are also moving in the movement area without authorization. If others are in the runup area at a towered airport, I would suggest calling tower prior to going to the hold short line. I'd also suggest switching to tower frequency when you get into the runup so you can be aware of tower's sequencing plans.

At Palo Alto (KPAO), the procedure is to call tower from the runup area when ready, and they will determine who goes next. I was there a couple of weeks ago flying Young Eagles at airport day, and someone not familiar did as you did; he completed his runup and went ahead and taxied to the hold short line prior to calling tower, seemingly completely unaware that others, including me, had already checked in with tower. He got to wait a bit while we were given clearance before him to takeoff. I imagine he got the message about courtesy.

Now, at non-towered fields, it's whoever gets there first, but it still is polite to announce intentions prior to taking the runway if multiple planes are in the runup.

And to answer your question regarding IFR, it's definitly bad form to go up and block others prior to being instructed to do so by the tower. IFR releases have to be coordinated with departure control in busy airspaces, and sometimes it can take quite a while. I've had to wait 15 minutes sometimes. Not good to be blocking access to the runway during that time. Best practice at towered fields is to not make movements on the ground in the movement areas without ground control or tower giving you clearance to do so.


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If you're paying attention and aware of your surroundings, you shouldn't be pulling to the hold short line unless you're pretty sure someone else isn't "ahead of you" in line. But if everyone followed the simple "pull up to the line when you're ready to go, but NOT UNTIL YOU'RE READY" rule, you wouldn't have people trying to guess regarding who is next.
 
bradg33 said:
If you're paying attention and aware of your surroundings, you shouldn't be pulling to the hold short line unless you're pretty sure someone else isn't "ahead of you" in line. But if everyone followed the simple "pull up to the line when you're ready to go, but NOT UNTIL YOU'RE READY" rule, you wouldn't have people trying to guess regarding who is next.
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I would assume whoever is ready is next. If I pulled into to the runup area and another airplane is already there and I could see them still fidling and not moving tho I was finished, I would just head to the line and make the call to tower on the way.
 
I fly at two different towered airports with two different procedures.

KCDW (Caldwell, NJ) wanted VFR, after run-up, to contact tower from the hold short line.
KMMU (Morristown, NJ) wanted VFR, after run-up, to contact ground from the run-up area and let them know you're ready to taxi to the runway.

In both examples, I needed to hold for release with a unique transponder code and be cleared into the airspace due to the TFR in effect.

Ever since, I listen closely to the ground instructions and check in with them for clarification if unclear as different controllers may want different behaviors given the current circumstances.
 
bradg33 said:
If you're paying attention and aware of your surroundings, you shouldn't be pulling to the hold short line unless you're pretty sure someone else isn't "ahead of you" in line. But if everyone followed the simple "pull up to the line when you're ready to go, but NOT UNTIL YOU'RE READY" rule, you wouldn't have people trying to guess regarding who is next.
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Maybe it's different at less busy airports, but deciding on your own to enter the movement area by pulling up to the hold short line and blocking the runway would likely be cosidered fairly rude at the busier places. Might even get you a talking to by the tower.

At Palo Alto, I've seen all three T-bars in the run up area filled, a couple of airplanes doing pattern work who are holding at the dashed line on taxiway Zulu ready to takeoff again, and several additional aircraft waiting their turn to enter the runup area. Might even be an IFR departure or two. The tower does a good job of maintaining the sequence of who's turn it is. Some guy deciding on their own that it's his turn, and taxiing up to the hold short line without authorization would not be a popular guy. (That's one reason I like being based in San Jose. Two runways, and I almost never have to wait for a VFR departure. Since the airport is a little further South of SFO, it's also usually a shorter wait to get an IFR release.)

Besides, the area at the hold short line is a movement area. A taxi clearance is required to go there. Wouldn't leaving the runup area without that clearance be technically a violation?


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In my case we got taxi clearance to get to the runway and the runup area is near there... So if there is someone already there and not ready, I'm moving to the line and calling tower to depart.
 
jimhorner said:
Maybe it's different at less busy airports, but deciding on your own to enter the movement area by pulling up to the hold short line and blocking the runway would likely be cosidered fairly rude at the busier places. Might even get you a talking to by the tower.

At Palo Alto, I've seen all three T-bars in the run up area filled, a couple of airplanes doing pattern work who are holding at the dashed line on taxiway Zulu ready to takeoff again, and several additional aircraft waiting their turn to enter the runup area. Might even be an IFR departure or two. The tower does a good job of maintaining the sequence of who's turn it is. Some guy deciding on their own that it's his turn, and taxiing up to the hold short line without authorization would not be a popular guy. (That's one reason I like being based in San Jose. Two runways, and I almost never have to wait for a VFR departure. Since the airport is a little further South of SFO, it's also usually a shorter wait to get an IFR release.)

Besides, the area at the hold short line is a movement area. A taxi clearance is required to go there. Wouldn't leaving the runup area without that clearance be technically a violation?


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In my experience, it's really rare to get a taxi clearance that terminated anywhere other than the runway. Usually it's "taxi to runway xx, via yy." If I've been cleared to taxi to the runway, I can taxi all the way up to the hold short line. Of course, on the off chance I got cleared to taxi to "the run-up area," then yes, I'd agree that I'd need further clearance to leave that area and proceed to the runway. I can think of only one or two instances in my flying career where I need specific authorization to leave the run-up area, and each of those had ATIS notifications and big signs near the run-up pad.
 
Besides, the area at the hold short line is a movement area. A taxi clearance is required to go there. Wouldn't leaving the runup area without that clearance be technically a violation?
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In most cases, the runup area is in the movement area as well. Further, I can almost bet the taxi clearance was "Taxi to Runway 16" rather than "Taxi to the Runup BLock." You're cleared all the way up to and not over the hold short line.
 
bnt83 said:
Don't be one of those guys holding up VFR departures because you decided to get your clearance at the hold short line. Next time that happens to me I will be asking for intersection departure (after verifying no one is preventing me from turning around and taxing backwards).
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Did you read the part where I said I don't do that any more after learning my lesson?
 
JOhnH said:
Did you read the part where I said I don't do that any more after learning my lesson?
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A post a bit more on the nose for others.

I actually got stuck behind a VFR CAP flight that goofed up radios and lost the comm and I backtaxi that day and got out on intersection departure. As I was rolling down the runway CAP called the tower asking for radio check, they had figured it out.
 
jimhorner said:
Maybe it's different at less busy airports, but deciding on your own to enter the movement area by pulling up to the hold short line and blocking the runway would likely be cosidered fairly rude at the busier places. Might even get you a talking to by the tower.

Besides, the area at the hold short line is a movement area. A taxi clearance is required to go there. Wouldn't leaving the runup area without that clearance be technically a violation?
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No, not a violation. The movement area is defined as all taxiways and runways and under the jurisdiction of the control tower. Runup areas at towered airports are generally off to the side of a taxiway or at the end adjacent to the runway and one should be monitoring GC, or LC. Of course local procedures could be in play as well.
 
mscard88 said:
No, not a violation. The movement area is defined as all taxiways and runways and under the jurisdiction of the control tower. Runup areas at towered airports are generally off to the side of a taxiway or at the end adjacent to the runway and one should be monitoring GC, or LC. Of course local procedures could be in play as well.
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I think that is what I'm saying. If one is in the runup area and stopped, possibly with other planes also in the runup area, I don't believe that one can arbitrarily decide to leave the runup area and taxi into the movement area at the hold short line without instructions from the tower, right? That would be entering the movement area without a clearance.


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jimhorner said:
I think that is what I'm saying. If one is in the runup area and stopped, possibly with other planes also in the runup area, I don't believe that one can arbitrarily decide to leave the runup area and taxi into the movement area at the hold short line without instructions from the tower, right? That would be entering the movement area without a clearance.


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No, runup areas are usually part of the movement area. Unless GC says otherwise or local procedures are in play when you're ready you could remain in the runup and/or taxi up to the hold line when you're ready for TO, or just remain in the runup and call tower. I worked quite a few towers and that was normal.
 
mscard88 said:
No, runup areas are usually part of the movement area. Unless GC says otherwise or local procedures are in play when you're ready you could remain in the runup and/or taxi up to the hold line when you're ready for TO, or just remain in the runup and call tower. I worked quite a few towers and that was normal.
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I see. I guess my experience is a bit different. I'm based in San Jose, and there you must get ground's permission to leave the runup area. I also go to Palo Alto frequently (gas is much cheaper there), and at Palo Alto, the procedure is to go to the runup, do the runup and other pre-takeoff checks, and then call tower for pernission to continue. Tower sequences traffic out of the runup area.



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jimhorner said:
I see. I guess my experience is a bit different. I'm based in San Jose, and there you must get ground's permission to leave the runup area. I also go to Palo Alto frequently (gas is much cheaper there), and at Palo Alto, the procedure is to go to the runup, do the runup and other pre-takeoff checks, and then call tower for pernission to continue. Tower sequences traffic out of the runup area.



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Yes, I understand that. I mentioned 'unless local procedures apply' for that very reason. Every airport is a little different on local procedures.
 
jimhorner said:
I think that is what I'm saying. If one is in the runup area and stopped, possibly with other planes also in the runup area, I don't believe that one can arbitrarily decide to leave the runup area and taxi into the movement area at the hold short line without instructions from the tower, right? That would be entering the movement area without a clearance.
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You're talking gibberish. The runup area IS in the movement area. You likely entered it as soon as you entered the taxiway (maybe earlier). Clearance to taxi to the runway is clearance to go right up to the hold short line. No additional clearance is required.
 
flyingron said:
You're talking gibberish. The runup area IS in the movement area. You likely entered it as soon as you entered the taxiway (maybe earlier). Clearance to taxi to the runway is clearance to go right up to the hold short line. No additional clearance is required.
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Not in my experience where I primarily fly out of, although I'm certainly willing to concede that it is likely due to local procedures. At KSJC, one gets taxi clearance to the runup area with instructions to call ground after runup is complete. At KPAO, local procedures expect one to contact tower after runup is complete for sequencing out of the runup area. In both places, it is not okay to just merrily procede out of the runup area without getting the okay from Tower or Ground.

Hey, and no need for the insults. (Gibberish? Really?)


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Sorry, gibberish was harsh and I didn't mean to insult you. However, even at KPAO and KSJC, the runup blocks ARE IN the movement area. I will concede the local customs there, but warn you that it is HIGHLY unusual. I've flown at class D, C, and B towers from the Rockies where I learned to fly at KBJC to being based at KIAD for years. I've almost never have not been cleared to taxi to the runway, and it's expected that you are at (or very near the line) before calling ready. Common courtesy says you don't jump ahead of people or come up to the line and block the runway if you are not ready for immediate departure, but just because there are people in the run up block doesn't mean they are ready to go any more than the same thing that happens at uncontrolled fields.
 
If you want to make new friends, do what a total asshat did here not long ago (from an unnamed fractional company who's name rhymes with 'Bama).
Uncontrolled field, line up and wait on the runway. And wait. And wait.
"We'll be off in a minute, we're waiting for our release". While calling center on a wrong frequency.
 
jimhorner said:
Maybe it's different at less busy airports, but deciding on your own to enter the movement area by pulling up to the hold short line and blocking the runway would likely be cosidered fairly rude at the busier places. Might even get you a talking to by the tower.

At Palo Alto, I've seen all three T-bars in the run up area filled, a couple of airplanes doing pattern work who are holding at the dashed line on taxiway Zulu ready to takeoff again, and several additional aircraft waiting their turn to enter the runup area. Might even be an IFR departure or two. The tower does a good job of maintaining the sequence of who's turn it is. Some guy deciding on their own that it's his turn, and taxiing up to the hold short line without authorization would not be a popular guy. (That's one reason I like being based in San Jose. Two runways, and I almost never have to wait for a VFR departure. Since the airport is a little further South of SFO, it's also usually a shorter wait to get an IFR release.)

Besides, the area at the hold short line is a movement area. A taxi clearance is required to go there. Wouldn't leaving the runup area without that clearance be technically a violation?


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There’s also local procedures and it depends on the airport. At FRG, we do the run up, then pull up to the hold short line without contacting anyone. Some runways don’t have a run up area so you request taxi to the run up area which is semi-far from the runway then advise ground when you’re finished and ready to taxi to the runway.
 
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