Read before you give Obama care information.

JoseCuervo said:
Just out of curiosity, has this "nightmare of epic proportions" actually affected you? If so, in what manner?
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It is a constant reminder that incompetent control freaks have taken over health care in this country.
 
bartmc said:
My premise was that its not a simple shopping cart program, and its not. I'm not even sure if there's ever been a clean room designed public website that anticipated that much traffic on day one. I'm not defending the bellyflop the site did, they should have been able to pull it off.
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Maybe, maybe not. Why did they fail? I'm interested in identifying the proximate cause of the fiasco and not speculation on specific design flaws of the software.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Just out of curiosity, has this "nightmare of epic proportions" actually affected you? If so, in what manner?
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, is that even a useful metric? I know there are some people who are tickled pink to have their insurance and health care paid for by other people. Does that make it good thing? Are the people who are directly impacted the only ones who can have a valid position or understanding?
 
bartmc said:
one little "WHERE SUBSTRING(0,5,a.FNAME) = SUBSTRING(0,5,b.FNAME)" and you're screwed.
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My favorite is the case insensitive where clause: "WHERE UPPER(a.column) = UPPER:)param)". OMG materialize the query if you have to but never, ever upper on the table side.

Back to your regularly scheduled rant.
 
Gary F said:
It is a constant reminder that incompetent control freaks have taken over health care in this country.
Click to expand...

But nothing that quite rises to "nightmare of epic proportions"?

Would you consider Medicare Part D a to have been a "taken over healthcare" type of thing?
 
Bob Noel said:
Just out of curiosity, is that even a useful metric? I know there are some people who are tickled pink to have their insurance and health care paid for by other people. Does that make it good thing? Are the people who are directly impacted the only ones who can have a valid position or understanding?
Click to expand...

A lot of us have relied on employers to be the "other people" who have had our insurance and healthcare paid. Does that make it a good thing? I have a dozen employees, I HATE shopping for crappy insurance policies for them (I am not an expert insurance buyer, why should I want that skill, that is not my expertise and economic advantage?).

And yes, I would think only those that are "directly affected" would be suffering from a "nightmare of epic proportions". How many other things that don't affect you cause you nightmares?
 
cowman said:
As to the software, I'll just say this much.

I worked as a programmer for a major retailer for several years and one of the things I worked on was exporting our company health insurance information... basically who was to be enrolled, their dependents, plan info, dates to our company's insurance provider.

We went through 3 insurance companies in 3 years. Each one had a different file specification, each one had a different set of rules for how things were to be reported. Our company had it's own way of recording things and determining effective dates and termination dates and so on.

These rules were always complicated.... not that any single one was complex but translating the myriad of small rules into code while at the same time translating from a different system with a different set of rules created problems after the roll out every single time. It didn't help that we always got notice sometime in Nov and had to have it working by late Dec. Usually took until summer to get all the bugs identified and ironed out.

What they're doing with the health care exchanges is several orders of magnitude more complex than anything I dealt with. Frankly, given my own experiences I'm impressed that it works at all.
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SixPapaCharlie said:
I am right there with you. I was a software engineer for years working in healthcare and insurance.

Pretty much all of our rollouts were like this one. It s just that this one is public for everyone to see and people that haven't walked in our shoes don't know this is normal to some extent and it looks like a dismal failure.

I am sure it will be fine in time.
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I'm not buying that reasoning. I am currently doing custom web application development across multiple dissimilar systems - HR, time tracking, Inventory Management, Labor Management, Global Metrics, internal custom applications, some with Oracle pre-11g databases, some with Oracle 11g+ databases, some with SQL Server pre 2008 databases, some with SQL Server 2008 databases, with each system being used differently at each of the 150+ sites that it is used - sometimes 'SHIP_DT' is the date that it actually shipped, sometimes 'SHIP_DT' is the date that it was supposed to ship, etc. - and, yes it's complicated, but that's what they pay me to do - MAKE IT WORK.

This is a government program (apparently unlimited resources) with an application that should have been scoped to be hit by potentially every citizen in the country. And I'm pretty sure the Prez was talking about this system on day 1 in 2008, so it's not like nobody knew this was coming.
 
CJones said:
This is a government program (apparently unlimited resources) with an application that should have been scoped to be hit by potentially every citizen in the country. And I'm pretty sure the Prez was talking about this system on day 1 in 2008, so it's not like nobody knew this was coming.
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Many of the specifications & details were put off for political reasons until after the 2012 election was decided. The timing of the depolyment was set as it was for political reasons (2014 election date).

And yes, even though I have health care plan through employer, I have been directly and negatively impacted by the ACA, with more reduction in benefits yet to come as more provisions kick in.

Even if we never end up with government single payer (which remains a very strong likelyhood, especially if Obamacare fails), the health care market & government requirements will most likely drive us to a single benefit structure - the only choices you have will be deductables vs premiums.
 
wsuffa said:
And yes, even though I have health care plan through employer, I have been directly and negatively impacted by the ACA, with more reduction in benefits yet to come as more provisions kick in.

. .
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Can you elaborate on these direct impacts. I am always interested in first hand stories, and as Sean Hannity proved recently, most "nightmare stories" actually had no basis in reality.
 
CJones said:
This is a government program (apparently unlimited resources) with an application that should have been scoped to be hit by potentially every citizen in the country. And I'm pretty sure the Prez was talking about this system on day 1 in 2008, so it's not like nobody knew this was coming.
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Each and every social program the government has invented is not working, why will this one be any different?

If they were working why are we 17 trillion in debt?
Social security trust fund has been raided by congress thus is empty and we now must borrow the money to support the program. Medicare and medicaid are in the same condition.

In the end why should we worry about this web page, when we already know the end results of any social program the government invents?
 
Tom-D said:
Each and every social program the government has invented is not working, why will this one be any different?

If they were working why are we 17 trillion in debt?
Social security trust fund has been raided by congress thus is empty and we now must borrow the money to support the program. Medicare and medicaid are in the same condition.

In the end why should we worry about this web page, when we already know the end results of any social program the government invents?
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Was the GI Bill a "social program"?

Was the Interstate Highway system a "social program"?

Was the war in Iraq a "social program"?

Were the Bush Tax Cuts for the wealthy a "social program"?
 
JoseCuervo said:
Was the GI Bill a "social program"?
Which one? Or are you telling me the service vet didn't earn what they are getting?

Was the Interstate Highway system a "social program"?

Why would you try to bring that into this thread. but remember the gas tax supports the highways and 50 % of the bridges in that system won't pass federal inspection. and it is government run.

Was the war in Iraq a "social program"?
There again, How well is that working for you ?

Were the Bush Tax Cuts for the wealthy a "social program"?
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And pray tell how did that effect the raids on the SS trust fund that happened years prior?

It has been proven time and time again that the government can not be as effective as the private sector in doing any thing.

This web page is just the latest example.

Company selected by cronyism to a proven incompetent off shore company. but a typical example of the government at work.
 
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Tom-D said:
And pray tell how did that effect the raids on the SS trust fund that happened years prior?

It has been proven time and time again that the government can not be as effective as the private sector in doing any thing.

This web page is just the latest example.

Company selected by cronyism to a proven incompetent off shore company. but a typical example of the government at work.
Click to expand...

You think a new system for retirement should replace Social Security? Something where the government mandates people go get some sort of private investment system? Maybe set up an "exchange" for private retirement company's to offer these programs? Subsidies or vouchers for those who can't afford?

Hmmmm. Where have I heard of a similar model?
 
JoseCuervo said:
But nothing that quite rises to "nightmare of epic proportions"?

Would you consider Medicare Part D a to have been a "taken over healthcare" type of thing?
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It is of epic proportions and health care will suffer prolonged harm as the result this boondoggle. Medicare has caused a lot of headaches, don't get me started.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Can you elaborate on these direct impacts. I am always interested in first hand stories, and as Sean Hannity proved recently, most "nightmare stories" actually had no basis in reality.
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1) Least expensive health plan eliminated as ACA required enough changes that it became too similar to & as expensive as the other PPO plan.
2) The remaining PPO plan has 12% premium increases & substantial increase in deductibles & co-pay (up to 20% from 10% or 0%).
3) Reduction in doctors that are "in-plan".
4) Additional tax on income & dividends & capital gains (including capital gains distribution in mutual finds). That tax is labeled as "medicare tax", but the ACA does not require that it fund Medicare - it goes to general obligation. I won't give you an exact amount as I don't care to disclose income, but it is enough to be noticible.
5) 80-something year old mother now having to pay new excise tax on "durable medical devices", including walker.
6) Although our company plans are in-line with other major corporations (and by no means "rich"), the anticipated premium increase between now and the time the "cadillac plan excise tax" is implemented will push us into the excise tax. Company plans to further decrease benefits so as to keep the plan "value" under the ceiling.

So, yeah, there's a total impact to me. It affects me now, and it will continue to affect me going forward as the additional expense will reduce my ability to save/invest for retirement.
 
Gary F said:
It is of epic proportions and health care will suffer prolonged harm as the result this boondoggle. Medicare has caused a lot of headaches, don't get me started.
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Do you think the previous healthcare system was working?
 
wsuffa said:
1) Least expensive health plan eliminated as ACA required enough changes that it became too similar to & as expensive as the other PPO plan.
2) The remaining PPO plan has 12% premium increases & substantial increase in deductibles & co-pay (up to 20% from 10% or 0%).
3) Reduction in doctors that are "in-plan".
4) Additional tax on income & dividends & capital gains (including capital gains distribution in mutual finds). That tax is labeled as "medicare tax", but the ACA does not require that it fund Medicare - it goes to general obligation. I won't give you an exact amount as I don't care to disclose income, but it is enough to be noticible.
5) 80-something year old mother now having to pay new excise tax on "durable medical devices", including walker.
6) Although our company plans are in-line with other major corporations (and by no means "rich"), the anticipated premium increase between now and the time the "cadillac plan excise tax" is implemented will push us into the excise tax. Company plans to further decrease benefits so as to keep the plan "value" under the ceiling.

So, yeah, there's a total impact to me. It affects me now, and it will continue to affect me going forward as the additional expense will reduce my ability to save/invest for retirement.
Click to expand...

Were Cost increasing before the implementation of Obamacare?

Why are doctors leaving your plan? Sounds like you have a very good plan, that should be no incentive for Dr. to turn that customer way.


How much do you estimate the income tax on dividends will be? Nevermind I see you chose not to share. Don't blame you. You think you make enough and dividends to offset your mom's tax on her walker? If you would've bought insurance companies the last three years you would have even more gains that are taxable.

Thank you for the honest firsthand reply.

They don't seem like "nightmares of epic proportions".
 
JoseCuervo said:
They don't seem like "nightmares of epic proportions".
Click to expand...

Any time someone takes money out of my pocket - be it a robber by force or by the government through taxation - and does not provide me with relative increase in services for the money taken, I consider that a "nightmare of epic proportions".
 
JoseCuervo said:
Were Cost increasing before the implementation of Obamacare?
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Yes, however the last two increases were substantially lower than the current increase. Premium-wise (not counting co-pay/deductible), the prior increase was about half.

Why are doctors leaving your plan? Sounds like you have a very good plan, that should be no incentive for Dr. to turn that customer way.
Click to expand...

Insurance company trimming the roster to try and lower costs. (As a side note, although it doesn't impact me because I'm not on Kaiser, Kaiser broke the relationship with Inova in the DC suburbs, meaning that Kaiser docs and patients can no longer use the largest hospital system in the area).

You think you make enough and dividends to offset your mom's tax on her walker? If you would've bought insurance companies the last three years you would have even more gains that are taxable.
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Whether or not I make enough is not the question. That's NOYB, nor is anything else regarding arrangements for parents & their support.

The fact is that it's another tax and another cost directly to our family that wasn't there before. It hits the budget, meaning that something else has to be given up.
Thank you for the honest firsthand reply.

They don't seem like "nightmares of epic proportions".
Click to expand...

I never made that characterization, so don't attribute it to me. I am, frankly, concerned that some insurers are pulling out of some states because the rate setting mechanism doesn't allow them to cover costs. I see more of that happening, with the result being less choice.

I can imagine that some folks might see it as a nightmare, though, especially those that are faced with the additional expenses resulting from the ACA and those that do not do good financial planning. Or those that are/have been out of work yet do not qualify for the subsidies (income redistribution).

In the end, financial planning & health care options are a deeply personal decision - government standardized plans can never account for those personal situations, so it will be the case that the ACA will benefit some, it will harm some, and it will be relatively neutral.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Why are doctors leaving your plan? Sounds like you have a very good plan, that should be no incentive for Dr. to turn that customer way.
Click to expand...
His side of the equation has little to do with the doctor's side. The new insurance plan may require physicians to accept lower payments to participate as a listed provider.
 
One good thing about the rollout of Obamacare: It should put to rest government-focused conspiracy theories.

If there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something to work perfectly right out of the box, and if there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something fixed immediately, this is it. And it didn't happen. And it's been a month and it STILL isn't fixed.

The government isn't now, and has never been, as capable as the conspiracy theorists claim it is.
 
CJones said:
Any time someone takes money out of my pocket - be it a robber by force or by the government through taxation - and does not provide me with relative increase in services for the money taken, I consider that a "nightmare of epic proportions".
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I have had years that I didn't pay much for taxes. I have had years I paid a large amount in taxes.

I love the years I pay lots of taxes. I will take those "nightmares of epic proportions" any time.

Where are you being impacted by the "higher taxes" and not getting a "relative in crease in services for the money taken"?

Are you high income and paying the little investment income tax increase?
 
Rigged4Flight said:
One good thing about the rollout of Obamacare: It should put to rest government-focused conspiracy theories.

If there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something to work perfectly right out of the box, and if there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something fixed immediately, this is it. And it didn't happen. And it's been a month and it STILL isn't fixed.

The government isn't now, and has never been, as capable as the conspiracy theorists claim it is.
Click to expand...

It depends on the ultimate goal.

If the goal was to make the new healthcare system a rousing success, then yes, it should have been perfect.

If the goal was politics, then making it work right was secondary to the political considerations, including timing and administrative demands put on the designers.

If the goal was eventual government-run single-payer, then making it work right was secondary to assigning blame to contractors & insurance companies.

It's all a matter of perspective.

(Note that I'm not saying any of the above is true, just that there can be a goal-effect relationship. Most likely, no one in government wanted to see this fail.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
One good thing about the rollout of Obamacare: It should put to rest government-focused conspiracy theories.

If there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something to work perfectly right out of the box, and if there ever was a time when the President of the USA wanted something fixed immediately, this is it. And it didn't happen. And it's been a month and it STILL isn't fixed.

The government isn't now, and has never been, as capable as the conspiracy theorists claim it is.
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This was Obama's baby so you think he would have attended a few of the prenatal visits. But there were no prenatal visits and he was feeding the mom thalidomide.
 
wsuffa said:
Yes, however the last two increases were substantially lower than the current increase. Premium-wise (not counting co-pay/deductible), the prior increase was about half.
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You had an amazing plan if you haven't been noticing substanital increases in premiums, co-payments, deductibles, and out of pocket. I can remember plans that cost me $30 a month, had a $5 co-pay for out of network ($3 in network) and no deductibles.

I am sure there are plenty of graphs out there that can show the outrageous increases in insurance costs over the past 40 years. And, likely even projecting more of the same.


wsuffa said:
Insurance company trimming the roster to try and lower costs. (As a side note, although it doesn't impact me because I'm not on Kaiser, Kaiser broke the relationship with Inova in the DC suburbs, meaning that Kaiser docs and patients can no longer use the largest hospital system in the area).
Click to expand...

Shouldn't all private companies try to trim the roster and lower costs? That has nothing to do with Obamacare. Insurance companies are reaping a windfall on this one. Check their stock prices. More people buying their product is a goldmine.


wsuffa said:
Whether or not I make enough is not the question. That's NOYB, nor is anything else regarding arrangements for parents & their support.

The fact is that it's another tax and another cost directly to our family that wasn't there before. It hits the budget, meaning that something else has to be given up.
Click to expand...

I know you said it wasn't any of my business, and since I am not on Medicare, I don't keep track of the benefits, but wouldn't your mom's walker be covered under Medicare?


wsuffa said:
I never made that characterization, so don't attribute it to me. I am, frankly, concerned that some insurers are pulling out of some states because the rate setting mechanism doesn't allow them to cover costs. I see more of that happening, with the result being less choice.
Click to expand...

Odd, I am more concerned with even more of our healthcare money going into the insurance companies. Of all the parties to be concerned about, the well-being of the insurance companies is well down my list.



wsuffa said:
I can imagine that some folks might see it as a nightmare, though, especially those that are faced with the additional expenses resulting from the ACA and those that do not do good financial planning. Or those that are/have been out of work yet do not qualify for the subsidies (income redistribution).
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What is the leading cause of bankruptcy for the last 10 years? I am pretty sure medical bills is pretty high up the list.

Ever tried to purchase COBRA? That **** was expensive, most people declined that I know.

Yes, people that do poor financial planning will always be in trouble. Hopefully they will find plans and programs that keep them from debtor's prisons....



wsuffa said:
In the end, financial planning & health care options are a deeply personal decision - government standardized plans can never account for those personal situations, so it will be the case that the ACA will benefit some, it will harm some, and it will be relatively neutral.
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What is "deeply personal" about healthcare? In all honesty, I would think that everyone would have pretty similar needs, in the grand scheme.
 
Gary F said:
His side of the equation has little to do with the doctor's side. The new insurance plan may require physicians to accept lower payments to participate as a listed provider.
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My daughter takes a bunch of classes with Pre-Med majors. She says they are the most ruthless bunch of students, all fighting and clawing to get to Med School. Seems like a profession that a lot of people are fighting to get into.
 
bartmc said:
And a lot do with their "where to buy" and a lot redirect to third party payment processors and even our own federal government's free credit report system does just that without issue.
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How would any of us know it's "without issue"? I've had one credit card reissued four times this year for fraud. It's not like the credit card nor any other business handling your personal information does any more than the bare minimum to protect the data, which is usually PCI. And PCI is an utter joke.

Doesn't make the government being just as sloppy any more in the right about it. You actually just listed off extra frakked up websites as a justification for another one? LOL.
 
JoseCuervo said:
More accurately, Romney and the Heritage Foundation.
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touche. too bad that guy didn't win his policies are identical to obama's but the press would have called him out for them.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am sure there are plenty of graphs out there that can show the outrageous increases in insurance costs over the past 40 years. And, likely even projecting more of the same.
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That's mostly the result of medicals costs increasing and not the fault of the insurance companies.

JoseCuervo said:
I know you said it wasn't any of my business, and since I am not on Medicare, I don't keep track of the benefits, but wouldn't your mom's walker be covered under Medicare?
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Patients pay 20% of the Medicare approved amount for durable medical equipment and any excess cost over this amount.

JoseCuervo said:
Odd, I am more concerned with even more of our healthcare money going into the insurance companies. Of all the parties to be concerned about, the well-being of the insurance companies is well down my list.
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A lot of additional money will go to the insurance companies and they are cutting reimbursements to providers. Where is all the extra cash going?

JoseCuervo said:
What is the leading cause of bankruptcy for the last 10 years? I am pretty sure medical bills is pretty high up the list.
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Probably the first.

JoseCuervo said:
What is "deeply personal" about healthcare? In all honesty, I would think that everyone would have pretty similar needs, in the grand scheme.
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No. There is a large difference in lifetime expenditures between individuals. Some people are sicker, others are high utilizers and there are regional and local differences in practice patterns and charges.
 
JoseCuervo said:
More accurately, Romney and the Heritage Foundation.
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Well, obviously Bush didn't have any responsibility for this obamacare ka-rap. But to associate it with Romney and the Heritage Foundation shows a profound ignorance of this Obamacare ka-rap and what Romney proposed in Taxachusetts (hint: what he proposed was NOT what was passed)
 
bartmc said:
Point being, Mcafee is a bat**** insane lunatic, who's bringing up a a trivial security issue that the industry just deals with because people are idiots...quadruply so with a keyboard under their fingers and no one watching. There's no "big revelation" here from Mr. McAfee, the free credit report thing does it too and there's no front page headline on Fox/CNN/MSNBC right now saying how it's rife with fraud. Obamacare is an abortion all by itself, no need to blow up a ho hum issue just to have one more thing to squawk about. I've been hacking around on computers ever since I begged the 'rents to set me up with a modem on my C-64 so I could "QuantumLink", then on to the Dial in BBS days... Never hacked, never phished, never gotten a virus, malware or anything of the sort.... Just don't be an idiot.
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Fair enough. What free credit stupid site does this? The only one I'm aware of doesn't.
 
Every place that I have worked at since computers have become commonplace, could produce its figures at the end of the day; barring a computer crash or power failure. Crashed computers or networks were always working the next day. During power failures we were expected to have our figures done by hand by the end of the next business day.

Before computers were commonplace. I worked at many businesses that didn't have computers. We were always expected to have our figures done by hand by the morning of the next business day, if you didn't have your figures by the end of the next business day, you were giving your walking papers.

Are the Obama administration and their contractors so incompetent and derelict that they don't have their figures, or are they deliberately withholding figures to hide the ugly truth? Either way they should be given their walking papers. They are epic failures.
Medicare chief Marilyn Tavenner delivered the same answer to a question eight times during a roughly five minute span at a Congressional hearing Tuesday and claimed that even she does not have numbers yet on how many people have successfully enrolled in President Barack Obama’s signature health care program....

“Chairman Camp, we will have those numbers in mid-November,” Tavenner replied.

Tavenner is the senior administration official closes to the implementation of Obama’s landmark health care program.
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Watch a Top Obamacare Official Deliver the Same Answer 8 Times in 5 Minutes
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...how-many-people-have-enrolled-in-the-program/


Thursday that the documents, released by committee Chairman Rep. Darrell Issa, are not official enrollment numbers, but say that as of the morning of Oct. 2, “six enrollments have occurred so far with five different issuers.”...

They say that at the next meeting, which took place on the afternoon of Oct. 2, “approximately 100” people had signed up and 248 enrollments had occurred by the morning of Oct. 3.
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Internal notes indicate only 6 people signed up for ObamaCare on first day
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-people-signed-up-for-obamacare-on-first-day/

The Obama administration has spent a fortune of taxpayer money, on an incompetent and derelict contractors that can't keep a webpage and software running and can't even give figures in a timely fashion. The Obama administration and the contractors should be given their walking papers.

The Obama administration picked these horrible, incompetent and derelict administrators & contractors. The Obamacare administrators and contractors are epic failures. The Obama administration is an epic failure. The people that voted for Obama are epic failures.

If this was Bush's legislation, the media and the public would have been rabid. Yet the Obama administration and its cronies are treated with kid gloves.
 
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