Ramp Fees

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keithv

Filing Flight Plan
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Sep 9, 2008
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Cache, OK
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Display name:
Keith Vitense
I keep my airplane at a small, rural (uncontrolled) airport, but the airport in the town that I work is a towered, Class D airport - still not large by airport standards [LAW]. I fly into the airport occasionally, usually when I need to fly somewhere after work. The last time I did this (before today) was mid January. Sometime between that last visit and today the FBO has started charging a $25 ramp fee. I was a bit taken aback, to say the least, as I will be parked, without being moved, for less than 3 hours. After I got over the initial shock I began to wonder how common this practice has become over the past few years at smaller airports. To be clear, I see this as different than an 'overnight' or 'tiedown' fee - and perhaps I shouldn't. Any comments relative to the a) presence and b) magnitude of this ramp fee?
 
I have a seen a few airports doing this. The one that I recall was KUES that charged me a $5 ramp fee for a 30 minute stop to use the bathroom. But some other airports still welcome GA and waive the ramp fee for small planes that are only staying for an hour or two.
 
It's not uncommon for airports to have a ramp fee. However, depending on the FBO, it's usually pretty easy to talk your way out of it. It is frequently at the line guy's discretion.

I can see both sides of the argument. As a pilot, I'm cheap and don't feel there's any reason for me to pay the fee when I'm not using their services. However, the FBO still needs to pay its bills, and if you were to pay for 3 hours worth of parking in Manhattan, it would easily be $25. Things like this are why I typically go to little fields without towers or FBOs of significance.
 
keithv said:
Any comments relative to the a) presence and b) magnitude of this ramp fee?
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I think ramp fees are slowly becoming more common if you don't purchase a minimum amount of fuel based on the size of your airplane. As Ted mentioned there are two sides to the story. If people come in to use the facility for free how is the FBO supposed to pay their bills? On the other hand, some of these fees seem unreasonable if you are only stopping for a few minutes. As far as the magnitude goes, FBOs usually charge based on weight or type of airplane. Facility fees can go from a few dollars to well up in the hundreds.
 
spent ten minutes at $ignature in St. Louis once. I think the ramp fee was 100 or 125 bucks. At first I thought they were charging me for someone elses fuel.
 
First off, do your research; some airports have a public access area which is independent of the private FBOs; if all you need is for someone to meet you, or to drop someone off, that is your answer.

In most cases, though, you'll have to access through an FBO or other airport business, and I believe the FAA is OK with FBOs charging a ramp fee. Realistically, in most cases, while you are not using much of their services, you are using their facility.

Most FBOs will, in my experience, waive the ramp fee with a modest fuel purchase; sometimes, even with the premium prices these mutts are charging for 100LL, it makes sense to buy the gas; sometimes, it does not. Do the math.

Also, you might check whether there are any other airport businesses through which you can coordinate your visit - a flight school or an avionics shop, something like that.
 
tonycondon said:
spent ten minutes at $ignature in St. Louis once. I think the ramp fee was 100 or 125 bucks. At first I thought they were charging me for someone elses fuel.
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Wow that is a lot!!

I parked at Signature at St. Louis a couple of years ago. They did have a high ramp fee but waived it for me since I bought fuel and parked for two nights. My total bill was something that was pretty reasonable. Which the FBO being Signature was a real surprise.
 
Regarding Signature: They do charge a lot compared to other FBOs, but they have treated me very well on my dog rescue flights. At PBI, they wave all ramp fees and give us a $2/gallon discount, making them the cheapest fuel in the area when I go down that way. I've gotten similar service elsewhere.

They may charge more, but that also gives them a lot of wiggle room to give discounts.
 
ScottM said:
Wow that is a lot!!

I parked at Signature at St. Louis a couple of years ago. They did have a high ramp fee but waived it for me since I bought fuel and parked for two nights. My total bill was something that was pretty reasonable. Which the FBO being Signature was a real surprise.
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i just looked on that website Mari posted. Now for a 421 at Signature it would be something in the order of $180 to have the privilege of stopping there. For a 172 it was $37. Waived with large enough fuel order.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Regarding Signature: They do charge a lot compared to other FBOs, but they have treated me very well on my dog rescue flights. At PBI, they wave all ramp fees and give us a $2/gallon discount, making them the cheapest fuel in the area when I go down that way. I've gotten similar service elsewhere.

They may charge more, but that also gives them a lot of wiggle room to give discounts.
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That is nice they are doing that. I think a lot of signatures do have local procedures that are nice. For instance KORD signature will waive all fees including landing for our USCG Aux planes, but KPWK just a few miles away will charge us $40 for a 10 minute stop to pick up crew.
 
ScottM said:
That is nice they are doing that. I think a lot of signatures do have local procedures that are nice. For instance KORD signature will waive all fees including landing for our USCG Aux planes, but KPWK just a few miles away will charge us $40 for a 10 minute stop to pick up crew.
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It's important to call ahead to find out which one is the best for you. In my case, Signature has treated me well at PBI and MSY. Because of how they've treated me before, when a friend of mine was dropping me off with his Cheyenne at PBI, I chose to go to Signature, even if the fees were higher. Although they knew who I was, so they waved the fees and gave a fuel discount, even though I told them that I was there for personal reasons, not for saving puppies.

A lot of it is who you talk to.
 
keithv said:
Any comments relative to the a) presence and b) magnitude of this ramp fee?
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As to (a), here's the airport owner info:
Publicly-owned Owner: CITY OF LAWTON
BOX 531
LAWTON, OK 73502
Phone 580-581-3301
​
Municipalities are hard up for money. They're doing it because they can. 25 bucks seems quite excessive though. :incazzato:
 
Atlantic Aviation in Ft. Wayne (FWA) charged me a $40.00 ramp fee when I picked up a ferry pilot whom dropped off a Navion to their shop for avionics upgrade. I was there for not more than 10 minutes. Never again!!:confused:
 
I research ramp fees before I go to an airport/FBO. I don't mind paying a "fair" ramp fee for the convenience and possibly avoiding a long taxi drive and using the FBO's services.

However, once I flew into Centennial to check out the B-17 that was giving tours and selling rides there. I just wanted to take some photos. It was using Signature, so I parked the Tiger at Signature for a few minutes to get some pics. A guy came out and said they were going to charge me $xxx, (I forget the amount but it wasn't cheap) if I didn't move the plane. Hey, no problem, I moved it off their ramp and got my pics. They were pretty nice about it.
 
Anthony said:
However, once I flew into Centennial to check out the B-17 that was giving tours and selling rides there. I just wanted to take some photos. It was using Signature, so I parked the Tiger at Signature for a few minutes to get some pics. A guy came out and said they were going to charge me $xxx, (I forget the amount but it wasn't cheap) if I didn't move the plane. Hey, no problem, I moved it off their ramp and got my pics. They were pretty nice about it.
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Yeah, I believe TacAir is the most GA "friendly" FBO at KAPA. They also have the self-serve 100LL pumps, vs. paying at least $1/more a gallon for Denver Jet Center to do the fueling.

TacAir also does OSH specials at almost all of their locations, which we found out when we went through Omaha last year after deciding to stay south of the thunderstorm line that ran from here to there.
 
201Driver said:
Atlantic Aviation in Ft. Wayne (FWA) charged me a $40.00 ramp fee when I picked up a ferry pilot whom dropped off a Navion to their shop for avionics upgrade. I was there for not more than 10 minutes. Never again!!:confused:
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You would have been better of stopping at KSMD and using their crew car.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah, I believe TacAir is the most GA "friendly" FBO at KAPA. They also have the self-serve 100LL pumps, vs. paying at least $1/more a gallon for Denver Jet Center to do the fueling.

TacAir also does OSH specials at almost all of their locations, which we found out when we went through Omaha last year after deciding to stay south of the thunderstorm line that ran from here to there.
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I only used TAC air at KAPA when I lived in CO, but I was based at KFTG which typically had better fuel prices, but never as low as 18V.

I only taxied over to Signature cause the B-17 was there.
 
At big airline airports with a monopoly FBO like Signature has at BWI, that stuff happens. Otherwise, it's extremely rare if you buy fuel and stay only long enough to get the fuel. Typically, buying fuel waives the first day/night ramp/parking fees. If not, and there's a choice of another FBO where they don't, vote with your feet (or, rather, your wheels). That said if you're going to land there, park on the ramp they rent from the airport owners, stay several hours, use their restrooms and flight planning facilities, etc., and don't buy enough fuel to pay the rent, then I would say payment of an appropriate fee (say, in the $10 range for a light single) for the use of those facilities is reasonable.

Hey -- what do you think would happen at the local saloon if it started to rain, you ducked in, took up a bar stool for three hours using their WiFi to read your mail until it stopped raining, and bought nothing?
 
Ron Levy said:
Hey -- what do you think would happen at the local saloon if it started to rain, you ducked in, took up a bar stool for three hours using their WiFi to read your mail until it stopped raining, and bought nothing?
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Happens at Starbucks and various bookstores all the time....
 
Ron Levy said:
At big airline airports with a monopoly FBO like Signature has at BWI, that stuff happens. Otherwise, it's extremely rare if you buy fuel and stay only long enough to get the fuel. Typically, buying fuel waives the first day/night ramp/parking fees. If not, and there's a choice of another FBO where they don't, vote with your feet (or, rather, your wheels). That said if you're going to land there, park on the ramp they rent from the airport owners, stay several hours, use their restrooms and flight planning facilities, etc., and don't buy enough fuel to pay the rent, then I would say payment of an appropriate fee (say, in the $10 range for a light single) for the use of those facilities is reasonable.

Hey -- what do you think would happen at the local saloon if it started to rain, you ducked in, took up a bar stool for three hours using their WiFi to read your mail until it stopped raining, and bought nothing?
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Ron,

What exhoribtant fee did they want to charge you for the Cougar at Pottstown, Limerick, KPTW? I forget, but it was a bell ringer. I was glad to have the Tiger.
 
dmccormack said:
Happens at Starbucks and various bookstores all the time....
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I've seen several such places (like Panera's) where they will allow no-sale occupation of the tables during off-hours but specifically "ask" that no-sale visitors vacate in favor of paying customers during lunch time and the like. However, in my observation of such folks, they almost always buy something (even just one of Starbuck's rather expensive cups of coffee), and, no doubt, that's the store's hope in allowing them to stay -- or even that they'll remember the store kindly when they are intending to buy food/drink. In addition, the visit doesn't require any staff effort to host -- all it costs is the electricity their laptops use.

OTOH, FBO's know that one-time visits aren't necessarily a prelude to big sales later, and at a minimum, they still have to send line crew out to meet you and then to retrieve your chocks when you leave. In addition, they often have limited line space during normal business hours (not just lunchtime, like Panera's), and you may force them to incur extra costs or lose customers if you occupy a space they need for someone buying 50 or 500 gallons of fuel.
 
SCCutler said:
First off, do your research; some airports have a public access area which is independent of the private FBOs; if all you need is for someone to meet you, or to drop someone off, that is your answer.
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Westhampton Airport (KFOK) on Long Island, NY is like that.

Draw a line straight out from the pedestrian access gate. Park to the left, there is a fee. Park to the right, there is not. The Rampies were kind enough to tell us that so we just pushed the plane over the imaginary line.

You still get hit with the $5 (municipal or county) landing fee, regardless of parking location.

-Skip
 
Anthony said:
What exhoribtant fee did they want to charge you for the Cougar at Pottstown, Limerick, KPTW? I forget, but it was a bell ringer. I was glad to have the Tiger.
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$35, I think, just to park there for lunch -- and I bought probably 20-30 gallons of fuel, too. Their position was that any twin (even the lightest of certified light twins) must be a commercial operation, and that commercial operators don't mind much because they pass the cost along to the customer.
 
The only fee we (KRUE) have is a $5/night overnight parking fee limited to $40 for any one visit and waived with any purchase of fuel. $40 happens to be the open ramp monthly tie down fee for a tenant.

We have been recognized twice as Arkansas airport of the year

We develop and maintain the airport as well as operate the FBO. We are only about 70% self sufficient from an operational standpoint' We are fortunate to have a city council that appreciates the importance of the airport to economic development but expects us to do the best we can to minimize the load on the taxpayer and we can' t count on this degree of support forever. The city has put nearly $500K into the airport in the last 5 years in infrastructure improvements (local match on grants). A few years ago, we had politicians that were talking about shutting the airport down.

Fuel sales are our main source of income. We target our fuel prices to be in the second price quartile from the bottom for full service within 100NM. We don't try to be the lowest because we have more to offer (outstanding terminal building, well maintained aeronautical facilities, crew car, service oriented staff, facilitation of rental cars and catering) than our neighbors with no staff and self service only.

We expect at least a courtesy fuel purchase but don't bug you about it.

If you want us to continue to be here to provide you a runway and other amenities, support us. Buy fuel - even if you can pump it yourself cheaper at your home drome.
 
At times I feel like I'm serving two masters. I rent a 182 from the local FBO at a wet rate. They (obviously) prefer me to buy fuel from them, and they're really good to me, so I try to oblige whenever possible. Of course, the 182 holds about 5 hours of fuel with generous reserves, so that means that, short of an extremely long trip, I don't need fuel at my destination if it's closer than about 325NM. OTOH, I want to support the other airports out there, too. Hence, the conundrum. I want to support the local business, but I also want to support the other FBOs out there.
 
I'm curious what ATW / Platinum will be like when they finish their new GA center. Don't get me wrong, it looks like it will be pretty, but they charge $190/mo for a 1066' T right now. The 100LL isn't a bad (not out of bounds anyway for the area anyway) price. Still, what will the new ramp cost in fees be to pay for it? How much will the T's cost (the larger 1775' is $315 now) afterwards?

Meh, you can't try to justify your own costs. Still, you have to wonder if they (managers) think about the justification for their prices. I have to justify mine to my customers...
 
On any trip, I always call ahead now or have someone do that for me. Just went to HPN and they had a ramp fee but for each 20 gallons of fuel purchased, one day was waived. I thought that was very reasonable.

When I make hops, I do try to purchase fuel if they have service; I don't pump my own much in the Baron unless there's no alternative. Can't move the plane on the ground by my self and often have passengers I need to tend to.

Have my own business and certainly understand doing some business with someone providing reasonable services.

The one with which I most disagreed was Palm Springs. They simply charge you because they can. Tried to just drop a passenger and they literally made me shut down, walk in a pay a ramp fee or purchase fuel. It was a leg on a long trip and I wasn't happy. Just wanted to drop the pac and go, but the pac probably used the facility or the people meeting him did. Don't know why they couldn't charge them and let me continue my trip. Probably cost me 30 to 45 minutes extra and weather was a concern.

Best,

Dave
 
201Driver said:
Atlantic Aviation in Ft. Wayne (FWA) charged me a $40.00 ramp fee when I picked up a ferry pilot whom dropped off a Navion to their shop for avionics upgrade. I was there for not more than 10 minutes. Never again!!:confused:
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Atlantic is the worst FBO when it comes to their fee practices, even worse than Signature.

The only Atlantic I would go back to is South Bend, and then only if I really needed to do more business locally - They did give me a discount on the fuel from an arm and a leg to merely a leg, and waived the fee. They provided a courtesy car, a nice facility and a very helpful, friendly person behind the desk.

Atlantic at Waukesha, though, for example - Never again. Went there recently to pick up a friend. I chatted with the lineman for a while while we got situated and he never mentioned a fee. Then, after I had gotten my taxi clearance and was already taxiing to the runway, ground control advised me that Atlantic wanted me to contact them on unicom. So I did - They actually wanted me to taxi back to the ramp so I could come in and pay them a fee! :incazzato: Sorry, once the prop's turning, I'm out. And I'm sure as hell not taxiing back in and shutting down to pay a fee. :mad:

$ignature - My experiences at $ignature MKE have been bad enough that I will never go to another one if I can possibly help it. Little to no service (I think the linemen and desk staff only wake up and man the place when they see a plane coming in on FlightAware, and I was VFR) and as of a few years ago (2006?) it was $46 just to show up.

Funny thing is, I've seen people complain about Million Air - And I have seen some god-awful fees at some of them (Midway comes to mind - $60, though I think a good chunk of that goes to the city and since I was dropping off a based pilot I think he talked them out of it) but there are some Million Airs that are great. For example, Million Air at Albany, NY had by far the nicest FBO facility I've ever seen and they also had the cheapest fuel prices in the state at the time, so I tanked up and stayed overnight with no fees. Staff wasn't spectacular, but they were reasonably helpful. I'd go back there in a heartbeat.
 
So since we're talkin' (and complaining) about bad FBOs... What were some of your best ones?

I absolutely have to give a shout-out to Tim and his team at Juneau, WI where the Cessnas2Oshkosh Mass Arrival group ... Uh, masses. Everyone knows what an utter mess "Sloshkosh" made of the ramps of surrounding airports last year.

Tim and his crew were some of the nicest people I've ever met at an airport under some of the worst conditions imaginable. Now, granted... KUNU had never ever seen over 100 aircraft on their ramp before last year, and I'm sure fuel sales were incredibly good. But their attitude was what was so impressive. I don't think most of them slept more than a few hours a night for the entire week, but they were all happy, friendly folk the whole time.

I can't do C2O this year, but I think I want to detour a bit south and tank up at KUNU just to stop in at that particular Wisconsin Aviation airport (they run a number of airports I hear) just to give them the fuel biz and say hi. They know they're a fuel stop and they have those pumps set up like an airplane drive-thru. It's cool.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Teterboro hates GA.
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It wasn't like that a few, well maybe several years ago. I used to fly in there a lot to visit friends and go to NYC for business. Millionaire use to waive the first overnight fee and the ramp fee if you bought gas. Then you'd get a bill from the state of NJ for around $5.00 in the mail. I am sure its higher now and Millionaire doesn't exst anymore. :sad:
 
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