Ramp Fees

I've heard the bad reports about all the FBOs, but there was only one that ever really made my list as awful.

Million Air has typically been very friendly. Atlantic routinely charges me for a single when I land in a twin at PHL (and I never buy fuel). Signature has treated me well.

You have crappy FBOs every now and then. But if you fly around enough, you'll find that most of them are pretty good. Just avoid the individual bad ones.
 
Graueradler said:
The only fee we (KRUE) have is a $5/night overnight parking fee limited to $40 for any one visit and waived with any purchase of fuel. $40 happens to be the open ramp monthly tie down fee for a tenant.

We have been recognized twice as Arkansas airport of the year

We develop and maintain the airport as well as operate the FBO. We are only about 70% self sufficient from an operational standpoint' We are fortunate to have a city council that appreciates the importance of the airport to economic development but expects us to do the best we can to minimize the load on the taxpayer and we can' t count on this degree of support forever. The city has put nearly $500K into the airport in the last 5 years in infrastructure improvements (local match on grants). A few years ago, we had politicians that were talking about shutting the airport down.

Fuel sales are our main source of income. We target our fuel prices to be in the second price quartile from the bottom for full service within 100NM. We don't try to be the lowest because we have more to offer (outstanding terminal building, well maintained aeronautical facilities, crew car, service oriented staff, facilitation of rental cars and catering) than our neighbors with no staff and self service only.

We expect at least a courtesy fuel purchase but don't bug you about it.

If you want us to continue to be here to provide you a runway and other amenities, support us. Buy fuel - even if you can pump it yourself cheaper at your home drome.
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Sir,
That post should be the front page of any handbook on how to properly run an airport and maximize its potential... I, for one give you and the local govermnent a round of applause for your concept in supporting aviation and its wonderful benefits and your well thought out avenue in achieving that goal.
Congrats again.

Ben Haas.
Jackson Hole Wy
 
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denverpilot said:
So since we're talkin' (and complaining) about bad FBOs... What were some of your best ones?
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Interstate Aviation at KPUW. Any time I've flown over to Pullman they have a place for me to tie down, they waive their ramp fee (I think they have one) with a fuel purchase (and after 2 - 3 hours flying time, I'm buying fuel) and the CFIs I've flown with have been fine with the planes in good shape (I've rented there 3 times, as well as flown over).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The only Atlantic I would go back to is South Bend, and then only if I really needed to do more business locally - They did give me a discount on the fuel from an arm and a leg to merely a leg, and waived the fee. They provided a courtesy car, a nice facility and a very helpful, friendly person behind the desk.
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I would point out that a "courtesy" car is generally worth about $30-50 in savings on a rental car or taxi. FWIW, Ramp 66 at Grand Strand (KCRE) no longer gives courtesy cars unless you buy fuel -- a decision based on costs.

Funny thing is, I've seen people complain about Million Air - And I have seen some god-awful fees at some of them (Midway comes to mind - $60, though I think a good chunk of that goes to the city and since I was dropping off a based pilot I think he talked them out of it) but there are some Million Airs that are great. For example, Million Air at Albany, NY had by far the nicest FBO facility I've ever seen and they also had the cheapest fuel prices in the state at the time, so I tanked up and stayed overnight with no fees. Staff wasn't spectacular, but they were reasonably helpful. I'd go back there in a heartbeat.
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My experience with Million Air is that customer service and relations vary with local management. The one at Republic-Farmingdale NY (KFRG) was terrible, and I was thrilled when the facility was taken over by Long Island Jet Center (and now by Sheltair, which provides outstanding service, even if they don't waive the first night's parking with fuel purchase as I believe FBO's should). OTOH, the Million Air at Westchester County (KHPN) is outstanding.
 
Graueradler said:
We expect at least a courtesy fuel purchase but don't bug you about it.

If you want us to continue to be here to provide you a runway and other amenities, support us. Buy fuel - even if you can pump it yourself cheaper at your home drome.
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I can see your point here but there is something you might not realize about pilots who fly other people's airplanes. We have been told to tanker as much as possible from home and not buy fuel unless it's necessary. However, we are more than willing to pay a reasonable facility fee and I will almost always ask if we owe anything. This is a business decision on my employer's part which I can't question.

There is one airport in a small town that the company has been flying to for quite a number of years. The FBO manager would constantly be asking us why we didn't buy fuel since we had a couple airplanes up there every week and we sat around his FBO all day. We could sympathize with that so we told him that we would start paying a small fee. In fact, we suggested that anything turbine that came in should pay a fee if they didn't buy fuel. I think that in the beginning we agreed on about $40. They liked the idea so much that now I think it's up to about $200.
 
Everskyward said:
I can see your point here but there is something you might not realize about pilots who fly other people's airplanes. We have been told to tanker as much as possible from home and not buy fuel unless it's necessary. However, we are more than willing to pay a reasonable facility fee and I will almost always ask if we owe anything. This is a business decision on my employer's part which I can't question.

There is one airport in a small town that the company has been flying to for quite a number of years. The FBO manager would constantly be asking us why we didn't buy fuel since we had a couple airplanes up there every week and we sat around his FBO all day. We could sympathize with that so we told him that we would start paying a small fee. In fact, we suggested that anything turbine that came in should pay a fee if they didn't buy fuel. I think that in the beginning we agreed on about $40. They liked the idea so much that now I think it's up to about $200.
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I make the point of saying we buy fuel at the cheapest location we can based on where we go. In the case of employers, they may negotiate a deal with the fuel providers to get a discounted rate. I managed to negotiate a discount with my FBO for the dog flights. Sometimes that's the cheapest place, other times it's not.

The fee for turbines is pretty prevalent. One of my friends recently bought a Cheyenne upgrading from his Aztec. He said that a lot of the places he used to fly with the Aztec and had no landing fee are now charging him $100+ to land. Reality is he's just a guy who owns a Cheyenne dropping his wife off somewhere or picking someone up.

If I had an FBO and had people routinely coming and sitting around all day without buying anything, yeah, I think I'd probably charge them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In the case of employers, they may negotiate a deal with the fuel providers to get a discounted rate.
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The company does fuel shop and uses contract fuel when possible and we have a negotiated rate at a couple places we go frequently, however, nothing is cheaper than buying it at the home airport, or so I've been told.

Besides, for the FBO, it's easier to charge a fee than go to the effort to put in a small amount of courtesy fuel.
 
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denverpilot said:
So since we're talkin' (and complaining) about bad FBOs... What were some of your best ones?

I absolutely have to give a shout-out to Tim and his team at Juneau, WI where the Cessnas2Oshkosh Mass Arrival group ... Uh, masses. Everyone knows what an utter mess "Sloshkosh" made of the ramps of surrounding airports last year.

Tim and his crew were some of the nicest people I've ever met at an airport under some of the worst conditions imaginable. Now, granted... KUNU had never ever seen over 100 aircraft on their ramp before last year, and I'm sure fuel sales were incredibly good. But their attitude was what was so impressive. I don't think most of them slept more than a few hours a night for the entire week, but they were all happy, friendly folk the whole time.

I can't do C2O this year, but I think I want to detour a bit south and tank up at KUNU just to stop in at that particular Wisconsin Aviation airport (they run a number of airports I hear) just to give them the fuel biz and say hi. They know they're a fuel stop and they have those pumps set up like an airplane drive-thru. It's cool.
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I absolutely agree with you. :thumbsup: They went out of their way to accomodate the bunch of us. They set up a table in the lobby overflowing with loaves of bread, cold cuts, cookies and condiments for an ersatz do-it-yourself lunch bar. The only request was a small jar asking for a $5.00 contribution, which probably didn't cover their cost.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I absolutely agree with you. :thumbsup: They went out of their way to accomodate the bunch of us. They set up a table in the lobby overflowing with loaves of bread, cold cuts, cookies and condiments for an ersatz do-it-yourself lunch bar. The only request was a small jar asking for a $5.00 contribution, which probably didn't cover their cost.
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I've always been very pleased with the staff at one of Wisconsin Aviation's other locations, Watertown. They're a good outfit!
 
gprellwitz said:
I've always been very pleased with the staff at one of Wisconsin Aviation's other locations, Watertown. They're a good outfit!
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Agree with that. I often do not need fuel there, I feel bad because of that. They offer such good services I feel like I am getting something for nothing.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that a "courtesy" car is generally worth about $30-50 in savings on a rental car or taxi. FWIW, Ramp 66 at Grand Strand (KCRE) no longer gives courtesy cars unless you buy fuel -- a decision based on costs.
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Agreed, and I have no problem buying something in exchange for a courtesy car. But, it was an expensive enough visit that, were there another airport as convenient to my destination that had good fuel prices and no fees, it'd have been cheaper to rent the car. I spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $60 extra on the fuel to save that $30-$50 on the rental car.

My experience with Million Air is that customer service and relations vary with local management.
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And that is what I've gathered as well. ALB was fantastic, while MDW was "Meh" at best, and I've heard some horror stories about them being like $ignature in other places.
 
denverpilot said:
I can't do C2O this year, but I think I want to detour a bit south and tank up at KUNU just to stop in at that particular Wisconsin Aviation airport (they run a number of airports I hear) just to give them the fuel biz and say hi. They know they're a fuel stop and they have those pumps set up like an airplane drive-thru. It's cool.
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gprellwitz said:
I've always been very pleased with the staff at one of Wisconsin Aviation's other locations, Watertown. They're a good outfit!
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ScottM said:
Agree with that. I often do not need fuel there, I feel bad because of that. They offer such good services I feel like I am getting something for nothing.
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Wisconsin Aviation is headquartered at Watertown (RYV) and also is the FBO at both Juneau (UNU) and my home 'drome of Dane County Regional (MSN). They're not perfect, but they're good folks and they generally do a great job for a reasonable price. Our hangar is a steal, and the line crew pulls our planes out, puts them away, and is there to provide fuel, oil, air, or whatever 24 hours a day. They aren't the cheapest place around, but they ARE reasonable.

They're truly "full service" - MSN, aside from being manned by both line and desk crew 24/7 has a 2-shift plus Saturday maintenance shop, an avionics shop, a charter department, and a very active flight school. RYV also has maintenance, charters and a flight school, and is more of a 1-shift/2-shift operation. I've only been to Juneau once, but I know they do have a flight school and (I think) a shop there as well.

Oh, and all three locations have free coffee, cookies, courtesy cars, and all the stuff that you want to see at an airport.

My favorite part is the sign entering the main FBO from the ramp at MSN - "NO RAMP FEES. We prefer to earn your business." :thumbsup:

Jeff Baum and co are, quite simply, airplane people - And they've built up a very successful business catering to us other airplane people as well as making more airplane people. I wish more places would get a clue and do the same!
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that a "courtesy" car is generally worth about $30-50 in savings on a rental car or taxi. FWIW, Ramp 66 at Grand Strand (KCRE) no longer gives courtesy cars unless you buy fuel -- a decision based on costs.
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Last summer, I went into Ramp 66 with a friend and asked for a car to get lunch. They asked if I wanted fuel and we got 40 per side. As we were asking directions and getting car keys, the folks behind us that had come in with a Piper twin asked for a car; counter folks asked if they needed fuel; they said no, and the FBO said they didn't have anymore :wink2:,

We offered to take them with us and they came. As we were walking out to the car, they saw several others parked nearby and commented that they wondered why they couldn't get one.

After we returned, we heard the counter folks explaining to them how sorry they were but all the cars had issues or were reserved. :goofy:

Best,

Dave
 
They earned my business when we stopped there enroute to OSH last year, and got a full top-off of the King Air as a result of their good service. I hadn't seen the ramp fee sign at the time, but they are clearly a customer-oriented business, as is TAC Air. We can only hope for more like them, and support them whenever possible.


flyingcheesehead said:
Wisconsin Aviation is headquartered at Watertown (RYV) and also is the FBO at both Juneau (UNU) and my home 'drome of Dane County Regional (MSN). They're not perfect, but they're good folks and they generally do a great job for a reasonable price. Our hangar is a steal, and the line crew pulls our planes out, puts them away, and is there to provide fuel, oil, air, or whatever 24 hours a day. They aren't the cheapest place around, but they ARE reasonable.

They're truly "full service" - MSN, aside from being manned by both line and desk crew 24/7 has a 2-shift plus Saturday maintenance shop, an avionics shop, a charter department, and a very active flight school. RYV also has maintenance, charters and a flight school, and is more of a 1-shift/2-shift operation. I've only been to Juneau once, but I know they do have a flight school and (I think) a shop there as well.

Oh, and all three locations have free coffee, cookies, courtesy cars, and all the stuff that you want to see at an airport.

My favorite part is the sign entering the main FBO from the ramp at MSN - "NO RAMP FEES. We prefer to earn your business." :thumbsup:

Jeff Baum and co are, quite simply, airplane people - And they've built up a very successful business catering to us other airplane people as well as making more airplane people. I wish more places would get a clue and do the same!
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wabower said:
They earned my business when we stopped there enroute to OSH last year, and got a full top-off of the King Air as a result of their good service. I hadn't seen the ramp fee sign at the time, but they are clearly a customer-oriented business, as is TAC Air. We can only hope for more like them, and support them whenever possible.
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Amen!

I got another demo of that today - When Jim and I went flying, we ended up deciding to stop in at Watertown and walk down the street for a bite to eat. Now, I haven't talked to Jeff Baum in a while - probably something like 2 years - and while I've had a couple of good conversations with him, it's only been a couple.

Jeff was working today at RYV - His office has windows out into the terminal part of the FBO - And when he saw me he said "Hey Kent, how've you been?" I was pretty impressed that he even remembered my name - Like I said, it's been quite a while since I talked to him. But, he clearly pays attention - And when the top guy's paying attention, everybody else does too.

I think we're pretty spoiled, having Wisconsin Aviation as our home-field FBO. They're not perfect, but we could do a helluva lot worse!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
...

Jeff was working today at RYV - His office has windows out into the terminal part of the FBO - And when he saw me he said "Hey Kent, how've you been?" I was pretty impressed that he even remembered my name - Like I said, it's been quite a while since I talked to him.

...
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Everyone remembers your name - after all, "Baby Got Back" was a hit single! :wink2:
 
Atlantic at Las Vegas McCarran waives their ramp fee if you buy enough fuel ($7.31 per gallon for 100LL). There's a $15 security fee plus a $40 per night fee for a light single. Those fees aren't waived with fuel purchase. It's still a better deal than Signature and the service is top notch.
 
tlglenn said:
Atlantic at Las Vegas McCarran waives their ramp fee if you buy enough fuel ($7.31 per gallon for 100LL). There's a $15 security fee plus a $40 per night fee for a light single. Those fees aren't waived with fuel purchase. It's still a better deal than Signature and the service is top notch.
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:hairraise:

That's like saying "You're gonna get raped, but at least they'll use a condom." :eek:
 
I don't mind a reasonable parking fee nor a reasonable landing fee. Then again, my reasonable isn't everybody elses.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
:hairraise:

That's like saying "You're gonna get raped, but at least they'll use a condom." :eek:
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Well, I called them in January when their fees were only $20 per night so that rate was honored, but the $40 rate went into effect Feb. 1st. At $20 per night it was still cheaper than going to Henderson and renting a car since we were staying in a hotel on the strip.
 
You can catch a cab from KHND to avoid renting cars and dealing with parking costs. The FBO will call 'em for ya. Works great.
 
Anyone have a recent experience with fees at KSAT (San Antonio) I will be needing to stop there in a few weeks. Most likely will be using Millionair FBO. Landing fees, ramp fees, tie down etc.

I don't mind reasonable fees, just hate it when you feel violated afterwards!
 
lmars said:
Anyone have a recent experience with fees at KSAT (San Antonio) I will be needing to stop there in a few weeks. Most likely will be using Millionair FBO. Landing fees, ramp fees, tie down etc.

I don't mind reasonable fees, just hate it when you feel violated afterwards!
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Best bet is to call the FBO and ask. Also check on airnav.com for comments.
 
Assuming SAT is a must; SSF is outstanding, if it works geographically.
 
I found they do not have landing fees. The FBO has their own set of fees. I will call.

Thanks
 
I just had a talk with an FBO manager that I know pretty well about ramp fees.

He just had to implement them at the first of the year. The reason as he put it is, "Charter/Corporate operators period". They bring in a load of passengers, who drink the coffee, eat the cookies, use the bathrooms, take the papers, want the loaner cars, etc. The pilots do the same, often wanting other things, like the power cart, ice, trash, etc. Then that operator fires up and leaves, because they have some heavily discounted fuel rate at certain locations, and they fly there to get gas whenever possible.

Funny thing, he also said they have a habit of shutting down right in front of the FBO blocking every other aircraft, so their passengers will have a short walk inside. Then they expect to be towed to parking, for free of course.

The slap in the face is when they also expect the ramp guys to load 6 peoples luggage, fetch the cars, etc. and no tip.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I just had a talk with an FBO manager that I know pretty well about ramp fees.

He just had to implement them at the first of the year. The reason as he put it is, "Charter/Corporate operators period". They bring in a load of passengers, who drink the coffee, eat the cookies, use the bathrooms, take the papers, want the loaner cars, etc. The pilots do the same, often wanting other things, like the power cart, ice, trash, etc. Then that operator fires up and leaves, because they have some heavily discounted fuel rate at certain locations, and they fly there to get gas whenever possible.

Funny thing, he also said they have a habit of shutting down right in front of the FBO blocking every other aircraft, so their passengers will have a short walk inside. Then they expect to be towed to parking, for free of course.

The slap in the face is when they also expect the ramp guys to load 6 peoples luggage, fetch the cars, etc. and no tip.
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The owner / manager of the FBO in Jackson Hole had the same feelings.. For years they catered fee free till one day the owner realized he was getting the royal shaft from the freeloaders..... I believe the FBO waives the fees if a minimum amount of fuel is purchased but for those who want to "show up, block the ramp, use the facilities, drink the lemonade, eat the food and then bail without contributing a dime and go buy fuel someplace else" is history......
 
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I almost always throw a five or ten at the line guys, guess I am not so cheap as I thought...
 
Our FBO operator charges a ramp fee for "OTHER CHARTER" users. He's Dead on.
 
Ron Levy said:
$35, I think, just to park there for lunch -- and I bought probably 20-30 gallons of fuel, too. Their position was that any twin (even the lightest of certified light twins) must be a commercial operation, and that commercial operators don't mind much because they pass the cost along to the customer.
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I flew in to KPTW this past Tuesday. Parked on the ramp, got fuel, was picked up, had dinner and returned before closing. The staff was very friendly and helpful, and the fuel was "reasonable". No landing fee with the fuel purchase. This was my 5th trip to PTW since thanksgiving, including two overnight tie downs. Always been a nice experience, and friendly people there. I can't speak to fees for a twin. I do think that landing fees for singles are $5 with out fuel.
 
I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest only because I'm thinking of the places I could go when I get my PPL. But damn if there isn't a more to this game of flying.

I wish there was a stated fee or not. I don't see on airnav any category for fees. Maybe the comments is the place to find that and obviously calling them might clear some things up.

Is there always a public ramp area in a airport? Maybe in a publicly owned airport? Do line people always come out to greet the plane? I don't even know what happens at my rinky dink airport but I'll find out now. I just pay the FBO for my lesson and go home.

Maybe when I fly over an airport I'll call the unicom and ask if they'll charge me anything if I just need to go pee and get a soda.

Jamie
 
pilotod said:
I wish there was a stated fee or not. I don't see on airnav any category for fees. Maybe the comments is the place to find that and obviously calling them might clear some things up.
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Just remember, AirNav is free to you. Therefore someone else is paying for the airport data to be listed. You're not AirNav's customer. You're the eyeballs being sold something. By the FBOs.

A phone call is always best. Buy gas at most places, you'll never get a ramp fee. Be nice to people you might even get a discount.

pilotod said:
Is there always a public ramp area in a airport? Maybe in a publicly owned airport? Do line people always come out to greet the plane? I don't even know what happens at my rinky dink airport but I'll find out now. I just pay the FBO for my lesson and go home.
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Public area? Not always. But at most airports the transient parking is free if it exists and most small FBOs don't have fees. Especially if you buy fuel.

Line boys/gals, usually... No. But that varies a lot. Same with self-serve fuel versus off a truck.

The more a place caters to jets, the higher the amenities and costs, typically. Just as a gross generalization.

There's everything out there from an empty ramp and a lonely self-serve pump, to an FBO with 24 hour staff who'll literally roll out a red carpet and put it next to your pilot's side door with Cable TV in the pilot's lounge and free snacks and sodas. Nothing's free in the end, though.

The smaller the airport, the less likely to have lots of charges and services.
 
pilotod said:
I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest only because I'm thinking of the places I could go when I get my PPL. But damn if there isn't a more to this game of flying.

I wish there was a stated fee or not. I don't see on airnav any category for fees. Maybe the comments is the place to find that and obviously calling them might clear some things up.

Is there always a public ramp area in a airport? Maybe in a publicly owned airport? Do line people always come out to greet the plane? I don't even know what happens at my rinky dink airport but I'll find out now. I just pay the FBO for my lesson and go home.

Maybe when I fly over an airport I'll call the unicom and ask if they'll charge me anything if I just need to go pee and get a soda.

Jamie
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One that irritates me is KTXK. It's a pretty large public airport, but all the ramp space is dominated by one FBO, so they can write their own rules.

:nono::no:
 
denverpilot said:
Just remember, AirNav is free to you. Therefore someone else is paying for the airport data to be listed. You're not AirNav's customer. You're the eyeballs being sold something. By the FBOs.
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This is an interesting point- my experience with AirNav would suggest the opposite.

After having a good experience at the earlier mentioned PTW, I posted a comment on AirNav about it. (It was the first comment I've left on AirNav. ) About 3 hours later, I was emailed by AirNav about the authenticity of my "positive" post. They requested a pilot number or a tail number to verify I was infact a pilot and my comments were true, or not post it. Since I was happy with the support at PTW, I provided a tail number and im guessing utilizing flight aware confirmed my travels. This, IMO would actually work against the theory that they are paid by the FBO's (since it was a positive comment) unless a local competitor pays more though I doubt that would infact take place.
 
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