Ramp check

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Checkout_my_Six said:
I hope they don't notice my Q tipped prop......o_O

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Just tell them those are like winglets on a jet wing. Shorter prop but slightly more lift. :D
 
What do you all carry for W&B if anything? Are they looking for an equipment list and an overall W&B. Or a specific W&B for that flight which I always have on my phone or tablet?
 
geezer said:
Bob Hoover handed his certificate to an FAA employee, who did not return it

It took years to go through the legal system to get it back, and he flew his air show in Australia while his legal team fought the FAA.

The FAA successfully maintained in court that if you willingly handed your certificate to their employee, you had surrendered it.

Thus, the new rule that they cannot ask you to hand them the certificate, just hold it so they can read it.

Dumb, yes. Legally established in court, yes.

I have attended Bobs airshow several times over the years, and met him personally. What the FAA did to him was criminal, but they got away with it.

I last met Bob following his last airshow flight at Sun and Fun. I have one of his gold Mustang tie tacks, and wear it with pride. That last show was just as near perfect as the first one I saw many years earlier.

Back to the original post, yes, I have been ramp checked, it was friendly, we had all the proper documents. At the beginning of the check, they presented their FAA identity cards. They asked if they could look at the engine space, we agreed, and after a close look with a flashlight, they complimented us on how clean it was.

We then asked that we end the check, as we had an IFR flight plan out, with a clearance void time, they responded "Have a good flight" and we departed.

The FAA rules may have been changed, but I will not hand my certificate to any FAA employee, just say I knew Bob Hoover personally, and this is the way it is done since he handed his to someone.
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An inspector that is going to take and keep your certificate on the spot is an inspector that was going to f*ck you anyway, right or wrong. If you're unlucky enough to draw that inspector, it won't matter what you do.
 
The FAA refused to return Bob Hoovers certificate. Period. They required him to go through a series of computer based tests of his abilities, and said he failed. I have taken that same set of tests, and on the day I took them, I happened to be very sharp, and did well. I had done some computer games that were similar, and when I got home, told my wife I did about twice as well as i would expect on an average day. Anyone who does not play with computer games would be unlikely to do well. I was about half as old as Bob at that time.

It is not myth, it is a federal court decision.

What the FAA lost sight of in defending the "voluntary surrender in court, when they lost, the court decision remains in force, no matter what changes the FAA makes in its regulations and procedures.

I used to have a copy of that decision in my flight case, provided by the AOPA to their members.

 
geezer said:
The FAA refused to return Bob Hoovers certificate. Period. They required him to go through a series of computer based tests of his abilities, and said he failed. I have taken that same set of tests, and on the day I took them, I happened to be very sharp, and did well. I had done some computer games that were similar, and when I got home, told my wife I did about twice as well as i would expect on an average day. Anyone who does not play with computer games would be unlikely to do well. I was about half as old as Bob at that time.

It is not myth, it is a federal court decision.

What the FAA lost sight of in defending the "voluntary surrender in court, when they lost, the court decision remains in force, no matter what changes the FAA makes in its regulations and procedures.

I used to have a copy of that decision in my flight case, provided by the AOPA to their members.
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28 years ago. A lot has changed in 28 years.

And while there are facts, most of that has been clouded with myth and mistruths.
 
bradg33 said:
An inspector that is going to take and keep your certificate on the spot is an inspector that was going to f*ck you anyway, right or wrong. If you're unlucky enough to draw that inspector, it won't matter what you do.
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An Inspector acting on his own can't f*ck anyone matter how hard he tries. Why? He has to get it passed his supervisor, and the supervisor will consult the 8900.1 (see above). The 8900.1 is very specific. Even if the supervisor lets it pass, it still has to go through the Manager for approval (which won't happen).

Even an emergency revocation is a time consuming and complicated process that requires several levels of approvals to accomplish.
 
geezer said:
The FAA refused to return Bob Hoovers certificate. Period. They required him to go through a series of computer based tests of his abilities, and said he failed. I have taken that same set of tests, and on the day I took them, I happened to be very sharp, and did well. I had done some computer games that were similar, and when I got home, told my wife I did about twice as well as i would expect on an average day. Anyone who does not play with computer games would be unlikely to do well. I was about half as old as Bob at that time.

It is not myth, it is a federal court decision.

What the FAA lost sight of in defending the "voluntary surrender in court, when they lost, the court decision remains in force, no matter what changes the FAA makes in its regulations and procedures.

I used to have a copy of that decision in my flight case, provided by the AOPA to their members.
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Despite your gratuitous use of bold and underline, your statements are nonsense and simply false. The "Federal court decision" you refer to is Hoover v NTSB, No. 94-1318 (DC Cir. 1994), which simply declines to grant a petition for appellate review of an NTSB decision that upheld the revocation of Mr. Hoover's certificate. There was no serious argument that he'd surrendered his medical in that decision. He had erroneously given his medical to his AME at the FAA's direction, and when he realized his error and asked for it back, the FAA revoked it on an emergency basis. There is no "federal court" decision that says handing your certificate to an FAA inspector is a voluntary surrender.

This is how these stupid myths and rumors continue to be perpetuated.
 
Doc Holliday said:
An Inspector acting on his own can't f*ck anyone matter how hard he tries. Why? He has to get it passed his supervisor, and the supervisor will consult the 8900.1 (see above). The 8900.1 is very specific. Even if the supervisor lets it pass, it still has to go through the Manager for approval (which won't happen).

Even an emergency revocation is a time consuming and complicated process that requires several levels of approvals to accomplish.
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You missed my point. On any given day, on the spot, an FAA inspector has a lot of power to make your day go very, very poorly. Sure, their supervisors may shut it down when it hits their desk, but a truly rogue inspector can ruin your day very quickly (improperly red tag the airplane, walk off with your certs, make empty threats/demands that some/most people won't have the knowledge or backbone to stand up against, etc.).
 
bradg33 said:
You missed my point. On any given day, on the spot, an FAA inspector has a lot of power to make your day go very, very poorly. Sure, their supervisors may shut it down when it hits their desk, but a truly rogue inspector can ruin your day very quickly (improperly red tag the airplane, walk off with your certs, make empty threats/demands that some/most people won't have the knowledge or backbone to stand up against, etc.).
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A lot has changed over the past 5 years. The Compliance Philosophy has put the brakes on Inspectors who attempt to operate outside the guidance. Plus the FAA is taking complaints against Inspectors seriously. This is why it's important to become familiar with the 8900.1 if you find yourself at odds with an Inspector. Also always inquire to the ASI who his supervisor (called FLM) is and get a phone number.
 
bradg33 said:
Despite your gratuitous use of bold and underline, your statements are nonsense and simply false. The "Federal court decision" you refer to is Hoover v NTSB, No. 94-1318 (DC Cir. 1994), which simply declines to grant a petition for appellate review of an NTSB decision that upheld the revocation of Mr. Hoover's certificate. There was no serious argument that he'd surrendered his medical in that decision. He had erroneously given his medical to his AME at the FAA's direction, and when he realized his error and asked for it back, the FAA revoked it on an emergency basis. There is no "federal court" decision that says handing your certificate to an FAA inspector is a voluntary surrender.

This is how these stupid myths and rumors continue to be perpetuated.
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But stupid myths and rumors are fun! And so much easier than knowledge.
 
bradg33 said:
Myths and rumors certainly don't require as much thinking, and thinking is hard :)
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...although to be fair, a bit of it is the nature of the beast. I have come across many who didn't understand the legal process when they were directly involved in it. So it's really easier to play the equivalent of the old "telephone" game and perpetuate misunderstanding.

We are also assuming the federal case @geezer was referring to was Hoover, which (a) doesn't deal with voluntary surrenders and (b) was never substantively reviewed by any federal court (the DC Circuit just said there was evidence in the record supporting the NTSB revocation decision, not whether the choice was right or wrong). I tried to look but found only two federal appellate cases which even talks about "voluntary surrender" in the FAA context. One of them does talk about something most of us would think questionable but they are not about handing the piece of paper over and it being deemed a voluntary surrender and do not contain the language he seems to be quoting.
 
I was ramp checked once at my home airport. I had just pulled up to the fuel pump, and I asked the FAA inspector to wait until I was done so I wouldn't be distracted while fueling, which he patiently did.

Gave him the required docs, no issues. It took 10 minutes. The same inspector now sometimes pops in to our monthly airport safety seminars. Genuinely nice guy who cares about aviation safety.
 
https://www.leftseat.com/bob-hoover/

The FAA still pulls plenty of shenanigans, be it rubber stamping airliners, the quackery at their medical branch that doesn’t even follow evidence based medicine or accepted medical guidelines, the silly war on RC airplanes, but that’s “administrative law” for you.
 
Haven’t gotten ramp checked in GA yet. My last encounter with the FAA was a few weeks ago. I was just getting done with a flight and getting ready to get off the plane and he asked for the mx logbook. I asked if I needed to stay and he just said nope, have a nice day!
 
Never ramp checked since 1991. Wouldn’t care if I was, the airplanes and I have always been legal... but just hasn’t happened.
 
The logistical, legal and financial requirements to maintain the chain of custody and safekeeping of a blood or urine sample are way beyond what the FAA can support for an ASI. The paperwork alone is a nightmare. All that stuff is done by medical contractors at specialized clinics.

Just ask any commercial operator what he had to do to get his TWIC card.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
sounds like you have nothing to lose with a spot surveillance inspection.....:D

Remember....it's your responsibility for flying an airworthy aircraft....not your mechanic.
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Yeah I think he just thought it had to be moved to install new toys so the current one is prettier. :)
 
If some inspector wants to Hoover you, they will.
There is no such thing as a pilot or aircraft that can't be "violated" in some way shape or form because what is and isn't acceptable is totally subjective. Just look at the recent thread on wheel pants.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If some inspector wants to Hoover you, they will.
There is no such thing as a pilot or aircraft that can't be "violated" in some way shape or form because what is and isn't acceptable is totally subjective. Just look at the recent thread on wheel pants.
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Sat down to a CFI interview years ago and the first question to me was "When was the last time you violated an FAA regulation."

Fortunately for me, I immediately recognized it as a "trick" question and answered accordingly, "I do not know for sure. Most likely the last time I flew."

o_O
 
jordane93 said:
Haven’t gotten ramp checked in GA yet. My last encounter with the FAA was a few weeks ago. I was just getting done with a flight and getting ready to get off the plane and he asked for the mx logbook. I asked if I needed to stay and he just said nope, have a nice day!
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Had the same thing happen to me at work. As soon as I shutdown I had an inspector outside my door. He wanted to see my certs but he was really there for a MX inspection. Unfortunately my mech asked how the flight went with him present and I had to tell him that something broke on the way back. He was all over him making sure the MEL was accurate and his entries were correct. Stupid Chelton system. :(
 
Velocity173 said:
Had the same thing happen to me at work. As soon as I shutdown I had an inspector outside my door. He wanted to see my certs but he was really there for a MX inspection. Unfortunately my mech asked how the flight went with him present and I had to tell him that something broke on the way back. He was all over him making sure the MEL was accurate and his entries were correct. Stupid Chelton system. :(
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135 Ramps are more common than Part 91 Ramps.
 
Velocity173 said:
Had the same thing happen to me at work. As soon as I shutdown I had an inspector outside my door. He wanted to see my certs but he was really there for a MX inspection. Unfortunately my mech asked how the flight went with him present and I had to tell him that something broke on the way back. He was all over him making sure the MEL was accurate and his entries were correct. Stupid Chelton system. :(
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Why would making sure the MEL was accurate would be a problem for you?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Why would making sure the MEL was accurate would be a problem for you?
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It wouldn’t. He was making sure 1) it’s MEL able and 2) the mech went thru the correct write up approval process. Basically by bringing it up in front of him, I made life on our mech harder by extending the time the inspector was there.
 
Velocity173 said:
It wouldn’t. He was making sure 1) it’s MEL able and 2) the mech went thru the correct write up approval process. Basically by bringing it up in front of him, I made life on our mech harder by extending the time the inspector was there.
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Ah...so it wasn’t going to get fixed right away
 
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