Ramp agent reprimanded for reporting MX issue

The A&P part of this is irrelevant.

You're exactly correct. A title doesn't define what knowledge someone has. Because someone is "just a _____" or "not a _____" doesn't mean they lack the knowledge or ability of someone who took some test or had some interview at some point.
 
There's a line there. Hopefully the dude doesn't lose his job, and it's a good learning opportunity for all involved.
Hopefully the dude doesn’t lose his job for bringing oil level to someone’s attention. The dude should also make sure that if he does lose his job, he knows the real reason, i.e., not for the actions that led to posting here, but for posting here.
 
Many of these jobs objectively 'suck' but there's a passion that brings people to it.


That reminds me of the guy who spent 30 years working for the circus shoveling elephant poop. Someone asked him why he didn't look for a better job and he replied, "What, and give up show business?!"
 
Steve Dickson resigned. Yesterday.


Yes, I know, but apparently we're not supposed to discuss it or the thread will be locked. And he hasn't been replaced yet, hence my recommendation to wait and see who goes in.
 
Yup, when you start opening things up, the line is crossed. As I used to tell my kids. "Look with your eyes, not with your hands."
 
Who's gonna pay if you break something screwing around with parts of an aircraft you have no training on? There are a lot of valid reasons to keep people in their lanes. It's possible you deserve both appreciation and punishment for your actions.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the post. I've been on a flight like that one.. it also gave me pause taxiing onto the runway with what looked like retracted flaps but then I thought to myself (wait a minute, I have a few hundred hours in piston GA.. and I'm pretty sure these planes have take off config alerts) so I sat back and waited to see what would happen. SURPRISE! An uneventful takeoff

Thanks for the post

To the OP's post:
It's tough, people who work in an industry like this generally like the subject matter.. be it boats, ships, planes, trains, etc. Many of these jobs objectively 'suck' but there's a passion that brings people to it. Someone found a potential safety issue and raised concern, fine. But opening panels that you are not trained or instructed to do is the part that gives me pause. If I'm sitting at Signature and the dude who fueled my plane tells me there's a ding in the prop or a flat tire, cool - thanks. If he tells me the oil level is at four quarts that would give me pause.. "how do you know, why are you opening engine things?"

There's a line there. Hopefully the dude doesn't lose his job, and it's a good learning opportunity for all involved.
If the OP is going to get fired it will be due to this thread not the 100 hour inspection.
 
Uhhh...



Yeah, I have a thought... stay in your lane. That is, if this story is even real, which I doubt (or at least parts of it are fabricated or embellished).

It just doesn't make sense to me.

First, you're a ramp agent. You're not typed in a 737, nor are you an A&P. You actually have no idea what you're doing or how to do it.

You, as a GA pilot, were going to do a real walkaround of a 737? Do you know what a "real walkaround" entails. Do you know that when you get typed on an aircraft, you have to do walkaround training. And every 18 months, you have to do walkaround training as part of your periodic checkride?

In the Air Force, we pilots were made to pass a "Aircraft Servicing" class annually just in case we had to divert to a base without maintenance and had to check and service the oil, or hydraulics, or fuel the aircraft. I've had to check the oil once or twice due to unscheduled landings, and even with that class, I would call back to maintenance if I ever had a question.

I'm assuming since they are Southwest 737s, that we're talking about CFM-56 engines. It just so happened that I flew an airplane in the AF with 4-CFM-56s, so I'm somewhat familiar. It's been a while, so my numbers may be off, but I do remember that you had to check the oil in those engines pretty quickly after shutdown (within 10-15 minutes) for the sight gauges to be accurate. If you didn't check them within that time, you'd have to motor the engine, and then check it. It sounds like (if this is even true) you parked an airplane, offloaded pax and bags, topped off potable water, then eventually checked the oil. No way did you check it before the 15 minutes accuracy time limit was up. Especially since they probably shut one down on taxi in to save fuel.

Also, it may vary from airline to airline, but the sight gauges may not even have to be checked every flight. The pilots have Oil Quantity, Oil Pressure and Oil Temperature gauges/annunciators up front which will tell them if they are low on oil, so the sight gauges may not even be looked at. And don't need to be.

So, you went to the PIC and told him about the oil. I have many friends who are pilots for SWA, and I'll tell you this, none of them would be hanging around in the airplane if there was still hours to go. Maybe SWA does stuff differently now, but they pride themselves on the 25 minute turn. Most of their planes don't sit for hours. They land, offload, onload and depart. I'm not saying that a plane dosn't come into an airport and sit for hours, but that's very unusual for an airline, especially SWA. But I'm sure as I can be that the pilots (the ones I know) aren't hanging around in the cockpit during a two hour turn. They are running to get a burrito at Moe's and running to their next gate for their next flight. Also, I doubt the PIC was "clueless" to what an oil sight gauge is for. We know what that is (and when it can be read accurately).

What the F does "looked down the static ports" mean?

This whole things reminds me of the "hero GA pilot" story a buddy of mine told me. A good friend of mine flew A319/320/321s. I can't remember what model he was flying that leg, but whichever one it was, they were able to takeoff with slats extended, but trailing edge flaps retracted. Well, they were departing with slats out/flaps up. They gave the ding and "flight attendants be seated for departure" call. They then got a call from the back, with one of the FAs telling them they have a passenger standing up, making a commotion. Apparently this guy sitting over the wing was a pilot and he just knew that airliners needed flaps for takeoff, and therefore the pilots must have forgotten to extend the flaps and he was telling everyone around him that would listen that they were all going to die since the flaps weren't out. Up front they were debating about just extending the flaps, re-running the takeoff data with flaps extended and departing. But then this guys would forever be telling the story of how he "saved" the flight and all the passengers because of his "eagle eye" and the fact that he was a "pilot." In the end, I think the Captain told the FO (my buddy) to don his hat and go back there and set the passenger straight.

I do appreciate the value of CRM and teamwork, but just realize that you may not know everything there is about every corner of aviation just because you know you own little corner.

Shoot... that's why I'm on here. I realize that even though I started flying in GA when I was in high school and cut my teeth on GA flying, the majority of my career has been military and airline flying, and I came here because I think there are many things that the posters here who are much more well-versed in GA flying can teach me. I don't know what I don't know, but I'm willing to learn.

Sorry if this post got sloppy toward the end... I'm already on my second whiskey and it's time for bed. And if you're curious, it's Michter's Small Batch American Whiskey, and it's delicious.

P.S. I snapshotted your post and sent it to my SWA Captain buddies and get their take on it. I'll report back with their airline specific thoughts.

Thank you! It is good to see an intelligent response to the OP from someone experienced and knowledgeable. As a mechanic who has 25+ years either working directly for 121 carriers or for 145s performing work for them, your post is spot on and pretty much in the same vein as what I was going to post. I think at minimum the OP was embellishing. At worst it was out and out creative story telling. Also known as lies.

It is amazing how so many student pilots and private pilots gain just a little knowledge and become instant experts on all things aviation. The same goes for ramp and gate agents. The stupid things I’ve heard come out of some of their mouths is amazing. This guy is a bad mixture of both.

The support he seems to be getting from some folks on here just makes me shake my head. Many don’t know enough to know whether or not what he posted is accurate, makes sense, or is how things typically happen on the 121 line.

I have a good friend who I worked with at one 121 who is now a director at SWA in their maintenance department. I think I’ll send him a link to this post. I’m sure he’ll get a kick out of it.
 
I see a lot of posts here that seem to be more, "Listen to me as I'm an authority," than any sort of, "Let's see what we can learn from this." Really, no one cares how long you worked for whom and on what. The OP found something, asked a question, and MX addressed it. If it was a case of the engine being shut down for too long, therefore, the sight glass give an erroneous indication, then maybe MX would have stated such and case closed. If MX looked at it and thought, "Oh, s**t, we should deal with that," then I think the OP did the right thing, training, or no training. See something, say something. If it's nothing, then so be it, and get off your high horse.
 
I see a lot of posts here that seem to be more, "Listen to me as I'm an authority," than any sort of, "Let's see what we can learn from this." Really, no one cares how long you worked for whom and on what. The OP found something, asked a question, and MX addressed it. If it was a case of the engine being shut down for too long, therefore, the sight glass give an erroneous indication, then maybe MX would have stated such and case closed. If MX looked at it and thought, "Oh, s**t, we should deal with that," then I think the OP did the right thing, training, or no training. See something, say something. If it's nothing, then so be it, and get off your high horse.
I mean, if there’s a possible Mx issue, by all means report it to the pilots. Not sure why a ramper would be opening up engine oil panels and doing a walk around. That’s not his job. I’ve had rampers mention a bald spot on the tires or some fluids leaking but none of them have done a walk around and started opening up panels. Like someone else said, respectfully, I think the OP needs to stay in his lane.
 
I see a lot of posts here that seem to be more, "Listen to me as I'm an authority," than any sort of, "Let's see what we can learn from this." Really, no one cares how long you worked for whom and on what. The OP found something, asked a question, and MX addressed it. If it was a case of the engine being shut down for too long, therefore, the sight glass give an erroneous indication, then maybe MX would have stated such and case closed. If MX looked at it and thought, "Oh, s**t, we should deal with that," then I think the OP did the right thing, training, or no training. See something, say something. If it's nothing, then so be it, and get off your high horse.

He found something alright, AFTER he stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

How far do you want him digging???
 
I have a good friend who I worked with at one 121 who is now a director at SWA in their maintenance department. I think I’ll send him a link to this post. I’m sure he’ll get a kick out of it.

Being as the OP is a pre-solo student in Central Maryland, it should be rather easy to track the outcome of this show o' stuff.
 
It is amazing how so many student pilots and private pilots gain just a little knowledge and become instant experts on all things aviation.
Agree. I wonder how many of these experts would approve of a line-boy performing a tactile preflight on every aircraft after they top it off by moving control surfaces, opening panels, and looking into places even the owner doesn't look.
 
A couple of years ago I saw a club member climb into their airplane one cold morning. From my angle with the light shining on it, it looked like the wings were coated with ice. I knew on my own plane, my wings were iced but it was hard to see. But to stay in my lane, I should have just let them fly off with iced wings, right? They would probably have been ok, even with 1/8" of ice on the wings. I mean, not my barrel, not my monkeys.

And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
 
A couple of years ago I saw a club member climb into their airplane one cold morning. From my angle with the light shining on it, it looked like the wings were coated with ice. I knew on my own plane, my wings were iced but it was hard to see. But to stay in my lane, I should have just let them fly off with iced wings, right? They would probably have been ok, even with 1/8" of ice on the wings. I mean, not my barrel, not my monkeys.

And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
Do you want him pulling the dipstick and then closing the access door so there’s no evidence that he messed with your airplane?

there’s a big difference between noticing something bad and going looking.
 
And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
Granted. But would you want that line-boy opening up doors and panels to look for something bad?
 
A couple of years ago I saw a club member climb into their airplane one cold morning. From my angle with the light shining on it, it looked like the wings were coated with ice. I knew on my own plane, my wings were iced but it was hard to see. But to stay in my lane, I should have just let them fly off with iced wings, right? They would probably have been ok, even with 1/8" of ice on the wings. I mean, not my barrel, not my monkeys.

And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
Not the same thing as the OP at all. See something, say something for sure but I’m not about to preflight a plane that I’m not qualified on and not part of my job description. Same reason why I don’t do the FA’s preflight.
 
A couple of years ago I saw a club member climb into their airplane one cold morning. From my angle with the light shining on it, it looked like the wings were coated with ice. I knew on my own plane, my wings were iced but it was hard to see. But to stay in my lane, I should have just let them fly off with iced wings, right? They would probably have been ok, even with 1/8" of ice on the wings. I mean, not my barrel, not my monkeys.

And the line boy isn't my employee. But I would still want him to wave me down if he saw something bad.
SAW something bad. From outside the plane. Not “opened up the cowling to help you out by inspecting your engine “. There’s a difference.
 
Alright, so I work for Southwest. ...
Needless to say, I'm not doing that again.
Find a PoC that you can tell stuff to.
Otherwise, if they fire you, your story to the media will be quite costly to them.
 
Otherwise, if they fire you, your story to the media will be quite costly to them.
Probably…because the media will most likely believe a story about being fired for finding something rather than inappropriate social media posts.
 
I'm sure there are some people defending the OP on here that are aircraft owners. How would you feel if the line guy that fueled your airplane popped your cowl open and started looking around? You'd probably be a little peeved. This is the same thing.

I was a line guy for 10+ years. By the end of my tenure I had my multi commercial, so I was more aviation savvy than the average ramp rat. But that didn't give me permission to start rooting around places I wasn't allowed to be. If I started popping panels open that were beyond my scope of work, I would have been in a heap of trouble.
 

I saw OP's last night, and started writing a reply. But I'm typed in a different jet, and don't have a 737 type rating, so I couldn't determine whether the "mechanical discrepancy" was real, or not, or properly explain why what he did was wrong. So I gave up. You wrote the post I wish I could have, had I possessed the expertise.

The thing is, the OP doesn't have a 737 type either.

The aircraft I fly has tail-mounted engines. While there are access panels in the cowling, it would take climbing a ladder to access them. So I'm wondering if OP worked for an airline that had such aircraft, would he drag a ladder around with him? Find "something", and then insult the pilots for being "clueless"?

Seriously?
 
Also, because of what the OP reported, the pilot HAD to get mx involved. This is like when a pax asks the pilot if they has been drinking. That happens, and its an automatic breathalyzer test for the crew.
 
I'm sure there are some people defending the OP on here that are aircraft owners. How would you feel if the line guy that fueled your airplane popped your cowl open and started looking around? You'd probably be a little peeved. This is the same thing.

I was a line guy for 10+ years. By the end of my tenure I had my multi commercial, so I was more aviation savvy than the average ramp rat. But that didn't give me permission to start rooting around places I wasn't allowed to be. If I started popping panels open that were beyond my scope of work, I would have been in a heap of trouble.

Popping open the cowl and started looking around? Wouldn't bother me. It's 3 1/4 turn wingnut fasteners holding it closed. Ooooooh so scarrrrrrrrry.
 
Popping open the cowl and started looking around? Wouldn't bother me. It's 3 1/4 turn wingnut fasteners holding it closed. Ooooooh so scarrrrrrrrry.

And if he did this after you pre-flighted, without your knowledge, and missed getting it properly latched, the cowl flies open on takeoff and causes damage, you would still not have an issue? Those wingnut fasteners are not quite that dummy proof by the way, I've had students think they had them latched but missed the catch.
 
And if he did this after you pre-flighted, without your knowledge, and missed getting it properly latched, the cowl flies open on takeoff and causes damage, you would still not have an issue? Those wingnut fasteners are not quite that dummy proof by the way, I've had students think they had them latched but missed the catch.

Preflight is the last thing I do before I get in the plane because of things that I've done/forgot/what not in the past. So if he pops open the cowl, has a look, and gets it closed, before I crawl on the wing, and I don't notice him doing so, I have bigger problems and probably shouldn't be flying.

You are right on the latch though, and it's the last thing I check before climbing in, because I missed one once and noticed something was off when taxiing. So it's a last check item for me.
 
Checking the site glass is a maintenance function. Maintenance will know the limitations on when it is accurate and what indications are normal. I am typed rated on the airplane but am not qualified to interpret the site glass reading.

Oil quantity is displayed in the cockpit along with the other engine displays. That is how pilots preflight and monitor oil quantity. A minimum indication of 70% is required prior to engine start.

The OP's enthusiasm for his job is good. Too few people have that these days. Opening service panels that you haven't been trained on is taking it too far. Keep looking for potential problems and report what you find to the appropriate people.
 
Preflight is the last thing I do before I get in the plane because of things that I've done/forgot/what not in the past. So if he pops open the cowl, has a look, and gets it closed, before I crawl on the wing, and I don't notice him doing so, I have bigger problems and probably shouldn't be flying.

The ramp does their final walkaround after the door is closed, and you can't see the engines from the cockpit. Guess none of the airlines should be flying since they don't do things your way.
 
The ramp does their walkaround after the door is closed, and you can't see the engines from the cockpit. Guess none of the airlines should be flying since they don't do things your way.
Try and follow the conversation. Here, let me hold your hand since you obviously have trouble without a magenta line:

I'm sure there are some people defending the OP on here that are aircraft owners. How would you feel if the line guy that fueled your airplane popped your cowl open and started looking around? You'd probably be a little peeved. This is the same thing.
Popping open the cowl and started looking around? Wouldn't bother me. It's 3 1/4 turn wingnut fasteners holding it closed. Ooooooh so scarrrrrrrrry.
And if he did this after you pre-flighted, without your knowledge, and missed getting it properly latched, the cowl flies open on takeoff and causes damage, you would still not have an issue? Those wingnut fasteners are not quite that dummy proof by the way, I've had students think they had them latched but missed the catch.
Preflight is the last thing I do before I get in the plane because of things that I've done/forgot/what not in the past. So if he pops open the cowl, has a look, and gets it closed, before I crawl on the wing, and I don't notice him doing so, I have bigger problems and probably shouldn't be flying.

You are right on the latch though, and it's the last thing I check before climbing in, because I missed one once and noticed something was off when taxiing. So it's a last check item for me.

This context was specifically about aircraft owners and their planes. Based on this and other posts you've made it looks like you're missing a few letters from your username.
 
This context was specifically about aircraft owners and their planes. Based on this and other posts you've made it looks like you're missing a few letters from your username.

Sorry, I don't continually try to show off false expertise or post irrelevant anecdotes. The context is a 737. I'd say "try again" but I already know you have nothing of value to post here.
 
Sorry, I don't continually try to show off false expertise or post irrelevant anecdotes. The context is a 737. I'd say "try again" but I already know you have nothing of value to post here.

You do realize that threads do drift and context within the drift changes don't you? No, of course you don't. The drift was specifically asking about owners. I answered. Then you showed up not having a clue, again.

I guess 91 ops should be abolished because things aren't done just like the airlines.
See how stupid that sounds? That's how you sound.
 
You do realize that threads do drift and context within the drift changes don't you? No, of course you don't. The drift was specifically asking about owners. I answered. Then you showed up not having a clue, again.

I guess 91 ops should be abolished because things aren't done just like the airlines.
See how stupid that sounds? That's how you sound.

So someone made a bad analogy in a debate, instead of pointing out the flaw in their argument, you made it about you and what an awesome pilot you are. Like you always do.
 
So someone made a bad analogy in a debate, instead of pointing out the flaw in their argument, you made it about you and what an awesome pilot you are. Like you always do.

If by awesome you mean I revealed that I make mistakes and changed my procedure, sure. Whatever gets you hard.
 
pZKJOaW.jpg
 
Back
Top