Radon?

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fast Eddie B
Radon gas is not something I've ever really thought about.

But it turns out we live in an area where high levels are prevalent:

28687058201_030f543221_z.jpg


After about a decade in our N GA home, we recently bought test kits and sure enough our levels are high: 5.7 where the maximum safe level is 4.0 and under. Literature says radon gas is the second leading cause of lung cancer after smoking, so not to be trifled with.

We have a contractor coming out tomorrow to look at our situation. Estimate of just over $1,000 to drill a 4" hole in our basement foundation, excavate a hollow below it, then install piping to an outside pump to vent the gases to our roofline to dissipate.

Anyone go through this and/or have any tips?

Thanks in advance...
 
Did it.

I used a home test kit, twice. Radon levels vary with the season as water tables rise and fall and displace it.

That sounds high ($), but a lot depends on how they vent it. If you take it out the side of the house vs through the roof, for example.

They'll do a post install test - expect levels to be similar to outdoor levels afterwards. If it comes back "below limits" but still higher than outdoor levels, make sure they take a second look. They vented my basement slab and my numbers were "good" but the guy said even though it passed, he could do better. So they vented through a basement wall underneath my garage slab, added a T to the main vent and the next test showed pretty much zero.
 
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You can bring the numbers down by sealing all the cracks in the floor and foundation, not the approved method, but it can work for about $20 worth of good caulk. My house was built with the mitigation pipes, but no fan. Haven't had a problem yet, but I should test again. If I get a problem I'll just put in a fan.

I know a lady who works at a nuke plant, they walk through radiation sensors every day to make sure they are not contaminated. One day walking into work she set off the alarm, after going through normal protocol they figure it out, she was late and had not dried her hair, they told her to get her water tested. Sure enough, a huge amount of radon coming in with the well water. She had to get a mitigation system for the water, which she did. Moral of the story, check your water too.
 
Interesting articles. Those Finns... pshhhh. Trying give all us Americans cancer by saying Radon is good for you. Sounds like a takeover plot to me.
 
Geez thanks Eddie! Top half of Alabama shaded like yours too, plus we lived just outside Blue Ridge for 4 1/2 years. Plus there's that copper mine up there (McCaysville?). Have read where that area has a high cancer rate due to it.
 
I've read Radon is also prevalent in ground water, gives me another reason not to drink out of the tap. Something we need to get checked, as its high up in my area as well.
 
FastEddieB said:
Radon gas is not something I've ever really thought about.

But it turns out we live in an area where high levels are prevalent:

28687058201_030f543221_z.jpg


After about a decade in our N GA home, we recently bought test kits and sure enough our levels are high: 5.7 where the maximum safe level is 4.0 and under. Literature says radon gas is the second leading cause of lung cancer after smoking, so not to be trifled with.

We have a contractor coming out tomorrow to look at our situation. Estimate of just over $1,000 to drill a 4" hole in our basement foundation, excavate a hollow below it, then install piping to an outside pump to vent the gases to our roofline to dissipate.

Anyone go through this and/or have any tips?

Thanks in advance...
Click to expand...

We live in Hillsborough County ,Fla, and we have a Radon ventilation system in the attic , with PVC pipes extending to the foundation of the house. Our house was tested after it was built (in 1996). If you live with windows open most of the time, Radon accumulation inside the house is negligible. However if you live in an area where your air conditioning or heater is running all of the time, and the windows are closed, you need a ventilation system, if your Radon levels are above the acceptable margins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radon_mitigation

Cheers
 
I side with the scientists that say that Radon is not a real concern. Anymore, it's basically turned into a scam to sell "mitigation" systems to home sellers and buyers.
 
For a homeowner, it's really a risk/benefit type of thing. There is no doubt that radon gas (or more accurately, the breakdown products) can cause cancer. The risk is small but real, and the latency period is literally decades. So you could look at the available data and logically say, hey, I'm willing to accept the risk that won't likely affect me for 20-30 years, that's worth avoiding the cost of mitigation. Considering all the other risks we face in daily life, cancer from radon is pretty far down the list of risky things.

On the other hand, there is the public perception of radon when you try to sell the house. Since you already have data that shows you being above a standard, there are lot's of folks that will shy away based on this. Sounds like your mitigation is fairly easy and not too expensive. Might be worth it just to check a box that a potential risk was remediated.
 
Gary said:
For a homeowner, it's really a risk/benefit type of thing. There is no doubt that radon gas (or more accurately, the breakdown products) can cause cancer. The risk is small but real, and the latency period is literally decades. So you could look at the available data and logically say, hey, I'm willing to accept the risk that won't likely affect me for 20-30 years, that's worth avoiding the cost of mitigation. Considering all the other risks we face in daily life, cancer from radon is pretty far down the list of risky things.

On the other hand, there is the public perception of radon when you try to sell the house. Since you already have data that shows you being above a standard, there are lot's of folks that will shy away based on this. Sounds like your mitigation is fairly easy and not too expensive. Might be worth it just to check a box that a potential risk was remediated.
Click to expand...

I had to install a radon mitigation system in my old house when we sold it, because of that "public perception," which is of course perpetuated by real estate agents and radon mitigation companies.
 
bradg33 said:
I side with the scientists that say that Radon is not a real concern. Anymore, it's basically turned into a scam to sell "mitigation" systems to home sellers and buyers.
Click to expand...

Radon , is the # 1 cause of Lung Cancer ,in non smokers, in the US. Epidemiological studies show there is 21,000 deaths, yearly, in Radon related Lung cancers. How many people die in airplane crashes , every year ?

Cheers
 
ralarcon said:
Radon , is the # 1 cause of Lung Cancer ,in non smokers, in the US. Epidemiological studies show there is 21,000 deaths, yearly, in Radon related Lung cancers. How many people die in airplane crashes , every year ?
Click to expand...

Please provide a link to a study supporting your assertion.... Thanks!

Jim

PS- To be clear...I'm not looking for someone parroting what the EPA says...rather a valid current scientific study.
 
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I urge you to read the second link I provided....it states the facts quite nicely. Will probably take longer than a quickie web search, however :)

Jim

Edit- The post also contains a link to a 2-hour video lecture on radon which is quite interesting, if you have a serious interest.
 
Everyone has their own standards for what qualifies as a "convincing" study, and I admit to a preference for non-government-sponsorship, with publication in an independent peer-reviewed journal. A list of current studies can be found here (the library is maintained by the government but many of the studies are independent -- one needs to look at the source journals and the methodology used):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=radon+lung+cancer
 
Awesome, Dennis! I'm all over it! Thanks!

Jim
 
$1000 may be a good number. I did mine and it was $1200 but other bids were $2400. Some scam in part of that, no doubt. I'm in a red state and my numbers in my basement were in the 8s. Did all the crack sealing, etc, and still in the high 7's and 8's. Numbers on the first floor were in the 4's, marginally high. I spend about 12 hours a day in the 8's area so decided to have the system installed. Some of the factors on efficiency of clean up are whether there was good gravel put under the basement floor, soil type, etc.

I did a 90 day study in 6 spots in the house, then came back and did some shorter term studies to confirm the long one. The reports were consistent so I concluded they were credible.

Home sales it gets to be an issue around here, as our state is the highest in the nation.
 
Here is Colorado radon testing and mitigation is a requirement for selling, or at least that is what we were told about 2 years ago. Our house had already been mitigated, but the radon test showed high numbers. Turns out the fan in the system had failed... and the company that installed it and gave us the warranty was out of business. Cost us almost $500 for something that looked and performed about the same as a $15 computer case fan.

Imagine my surprise when I got into to aviation. Now I just assume that part was rated for use on planes as well.
 
bradg33 said:
I side with the scientists that say that Radon is not a real concern. Anymore, it's basically turned into a scam to sell "mitigation" systems to home sellers and buyers.
Click to expand...

Totally. I did a lot of research on this after it arose as a potential issue on a house sale. Came away convinced it's the latest scam. I'd never spend a dime on "mitigation" of a trivial threat.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I had no idea this was at all a controversial topic!

We're likely going to go ahead and go for mitigation.

Having someone out today to look things over - I'll report back how that goes.
 
I've done extensive research on indoor radon risk over the past several years. The reality is that radon exists in the OUTDOOR AIR. As with most other things, there is some evidence that very high concentrations in a confined environment (such as your house) can negatively impact your health over time, but those concentrations are most likely many times higher than government-published "action" levels. The problem is that proof of the risk, and especially quantifying the risk at specific radon levels, is not well established. Estimates, opinions, and consensus do not equate to fact.

I'm not aware of any credible declaration of a "safe" level for radon. The EPA "action level" of 4.0pCi/L is I believe set artificially low based on the unknown risk and the theory that "lower is better." However, other governments (such as Canada) have action levels which are significantly higher.

While the EPA doesn't require home mitigation, some states do. The EPA's guidance is that radon levels should be measured on the lowest living level of the house. Some states, such as my home state of PA, arbitrarily decided that all real estate resales require the level to be measured in the BASEMENT, and remediation done if the measured level is beyond the EPA action level. This requirement is flawed for many reasons, and in my opinion serves only to prop up the mitigation industry.

There are both short term and long term radon tests. A short term test is often used for real estate transactions because it is quick. However, it may show high or low levels which are not representative of the actual long term level, due to weather or other conditions which may have a temporary impact on radon levels.

If you have an unfinished basement, sealing the gaps with a urethane caulk can help. Sealing the walls can help. The mitigation systems are usually pretty simple, with the idea being that you suck the radon out from under the house before it has an opportunity to infiltrate. That's usually done with PVC pipe and an inline fan. You can core drill through the basement slab or tap on to a perimeter French drain if it exists. If you have crawl spaces instead, more work may be required to capture and exhaust the radon. The radon should be exhausted above the soffits so that it doesn't get sucked into the attic and then settle back in the house.


JKG
 
172andyou said:
Absolutely. Because if there is only one thing that's true about real estate agents it is that they will do anything in their power to put obstacles in the way of a sale.
Click to expand...
They will usually do anything in their power to appear they are doing something, which often means putting up obstacles.
 
Back a number of decades ago I worked in nuclear engineering at Mare Island Naval Shipyard. We overhauled and refueled nuclear submarines. One of the pieces of equipment in the engine room was an Airborne Particle Detector (APD). It sucked air from a few places and ran the air through a moving filter paper. The paper then passed under a radiation detector to look for primary to secondary leaks in the nuclear power plant. On cold foggy mornings at the yard the mist rising from the ground would contain enough radon that boats tied up along the waterfront would have their APDs go off. Once figured out it was an annoyance and nothing more. That's been my total exposure to and experience with radon.
 
FastEddieB said:
Thanks for all the replies. I had no idea this was at all a controversial topic!

We're likely going to go ahead and go for mitigation.

Having someone out today to look things over - I'll report back how that goes.
Click to expand...

The only place this is controversial is on this thread. There is no controversy in the Medical and Scientific community. You are doing the right thing.

Cheers
 
JGoodish said:
I've done extensive research on indoor radon risk over the past several years. The reality is that radon exists in the OUTDOOR AIR. As with most other things, there is some evidence that very high concentrations in a confined environment (such as your house) can negatively impact your health over time, but those concentrations are most likely many times higher than government-published "action" levels. The problem is that proof of the risk, and especially quantifying the risk at specific radon levels, is not well established. Estimates, opinions, and consensus do not equate to fact.

I'm not aware of any credible declaration of a "safe" level for radon. The EPA "action level" of 4.0pCi/L is I believe set artificially low based on the unknown risk and the theory that "lower is better." However, other governments (such as Canada) have action levels which are significantly higher.

While the EPA doesn't require home mitigation, some states do. The EPA's guidance is that radon levels should be measured on the lowest living level of the house. Some states, such as my home state of PA, arbitrarily decided that all real estate resales require the level to be measured in the BASEMENT, and remediation done if the measured level is beyond the EPA action level. This requirement is flawed for many reasons, and in my opinion serves only to prop up the mitigation industry.

There are both short term and long term radon tests. A short term test is often used for real estate transactions because it is quick. However, it may show high or low levels which are not representative of the actual long term level, due to weather or other conditions which may have a temporary impact on radon levels.

If you have an unfinished basement, sealing the gaps with a urethane caulk can help. Sealing the walls can help. The mitigation systems are usually pretty simple, with the idea being that you suck the radon out from under the house before it has an opportunity to infiltrate. That's usually done with PVC pipe and an inline fan. You can core drill through the basement slab or tap on to a perimeter French drain if it exists. If you have crawl spaces instead, more work may be required to capture and exhaust the radon. The radon should be exhausted above the soffits so that it doesn't get sucked into the attic and then settle back in the house.


JKG
Click to expand...
Remember that radon is heavier than air...
 
ralarcon said:
The only place this is controversial is on this thread. There is no controversy in the Medical and Scientific community. You are doing the right thing.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Except for the conflicting scientific studies, that is.
 
When I bought my house in Virginia, measured Radon was like 2 picocuries/L. When I sold it 23 years later it was up over 4 (which is the threshold). Part of the issue was likely that we had finished and conditioned the basement in the interim.

Anyhow, if you have good air flow under the slab like us, remediation is $800 to drill a 4" hole in the slab and install the fan and pipe to get it out. I got some points from the buyer (and ultimately a discount from the Radon guy) for opting to pay $100 to route it in an unobtrusive fashion rather than the most direct and cheapest route out o the basement.
 
bradg33 said:
Except for the conflicting scientific studies, that is.
Click to expand...

Where ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16608828

"Collectively, these results provide direct evidence of an association between residential radon and lung cancer risk, a finding predicted by extrapolation of results from occupational studies of radon-exposed underground miners."

Cheers
 
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ralarcon said:
Where ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16608828

"Collectively, these results provide direct evidence of an association between residential radon and lung cancer risk, a finding predicted by extrapolation of results from occupational studies of radon-exposed underground miners."

Cheers
Click to expand...

Did you simply ignore the other links in this thread to studies and materials that basically conclude that residential radon is (in my own words) not a real threat?
 
Clark1961 said:
Remember that radon is heavier than air...
Click to expand...

Yes, which is why the highest levels are typically found in the lowest level of the home. However, it's complete nonsense to require radon tests in an unfinished basement (as my home state does) rather than the lowest living area of a home.

If your mitigation system runs up to but not beyond vented soffits or other intakes, it can be pulled back into the home.


JKG
 
ralarcon said:
Where ?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16608828

"Collectively, these results provide direct evidence of an association between residential radon and lung cancer risk, a finding predicted by extrapolation of results from occupational studies of radon-exposed underground miners."

Cheers
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that the studies are conflicting, only that they are not conclusive (nor even reasonably close to conclusive.). There appears to be debate over what a "safe" level of exposure may be above a level of zero, but a level of zero doesn't exist in the natural outdoor environment in many places. Even the publication that you cite admits, in the sentence after the one that you quoted, "However, case-control studies of residential radon and lung cancer have provided ambiguous evidence of radon lung cancer risks."

I think that it's reasonable to conclude that long-term exposure to significantly high levels of radon (hundreds of pCi/L or more) may have a detrimental effect on a person's health, as is the case with any other type of overdose. It's simply false to suggest that the overdose threshold has been scientifically established, especially at the relatively low EPA action level. However, there are some houses which actually do accumulate significantly high levels of radon, so it is certainly advisable to test using a controlled test procedure.


JKG
 
Anyway, beyond just an evaluation, the fellow showed up Saturday ready to do the job.

Inside, in a storage room:

28243312273_c154f11b70_z.jpg


28243315023_fc0f4e19c4_z.jpg


Outside:

28243317603_7dca3878cc_z.jpg


Simpler install than some I've seen online, since it was established we did not need a sump pump - our basement never floods.

One unexpected issue - the air pump is below and pretty close to our bedroom window and makes a constant low hum. I may install a cover over it with some acoustic tiles to deaden the sound.

We test again in about a week to see how much it helped - I'll let you know the results.
 
JGoodish said:
Yes, which is why the highest levels are typically found in the lowest level of the home. However, it's complete nonsense to require radon tests in an unfinished basement (as my home state does) rather than the lowest living area of a home.

If your mitigation system runs up to but not beyond vented soffits or other intakes, it can be pulled back into the home.


JKG
Click to expand...
Ummm, even if it runs above the intakes it can and will be pulled back in. Taking radon up is stupid. Lateral dispersal would be much smarter.
 
FastEddieB said:
Outside:

28243317603_7dca3878cc_z.jpg



We test again in about a week to see how much it helped - I'll let you know the results.
Click to expand...

Can't quite tell from the picture - did they install a weather cap on the exhaust to prevent rainwater/debris from entering the exhaust pipe?

Gary
 
Gary said:
Can't quite tell from the picture - did they install a weather cap on the exhaust to prevent rainwater/debris from entering the exhaust pipe?

Gary
Click to expand...

No.

I asked. The fellow said that was not permitted.

He said any rain would flow down into the excavated cavity to be absorbed. That the pipes were all canted slightly to allow that. And that debris would have a hard time making it down the pipe against the constant air pressure from the fan.

Edited to add: conformed by at least one site:

http://www.radonmold.com/Why-Is-There-No-Rain-Cap-.html
 
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