Radio Noise with LED Lights

Cmercado

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Charlie M
Hi guys,

Just replaced my navigation lights with a Position/ Strobe/ Nav LED combo. The issue that I am having is noise from the strobes in my intercom. Can I fix it with a filter? I check grounds and they were fine. Any experience?
 
Hi guys,

Just replaced my navigation lights with a Position/ Strobe/ Nav LED combo. The issue that I am having is noise from the strobes in my intercom. Can I fix it with a filter? I check grounds and they were fine. Any experience?

There might be what's called a "ground loop" in the airframe. Nothing to do with taildraggers. The negative side of the electrical system runs though the metal airframe, and if there are poor connections at, say, the wing bolts or other joints, the ground path is compromised and the current finds easier ways to run.

If the wingtip strobes are making noise in the audio, it will depend where the power supply is. If it's in the wing, a poor wing/fuselage ground might induce the current to flow through an antenna shield and you might hear noise when receiving, sometimes all the time. Common enough in Cessnas with tail strobes.

I once chased a pernicious alternator whine in a 172. I drove the alternator with an electric motor, and crawled around under the panel wearing a headset and attaching a ground wire across various airframe parts. Found that the joint in the two-piece firewall sheet wasn't well connected. Such a trick might work to isolate the bad ground in your case.

Dan
 
Dan,

Thanks for the reply. The funny thing is that is a LED Nav/Strobe/position combo and it doesn't have a power supply unit. The wiring for the strobe is brand new.... Will a filter solve my problem?......
 
Impossible to say without completing the troubleshooting. Filters don't fix the problem, they mask it. Whether one will be effective depends on where the noise is coming from.
 
I have read of problems where the shielding was not grounded 'properly'.
I can't recall right now but don't some devices have their shielding only grounded at one end?
 
I have read of problems where the shielding was not grounded 'properly'.
I can't recall right now but don't some devices have their shielding only grounded at one end?

Antenna wires have their shields grounded at both ends. Audio wires have their shields grounded only at one end, to avoid the ground-loop phenomenon. The mic headset jacks should be insulated from the airframe, and their grounds attached to the wire shield.

Dan
 
Ok. Please clarify. Is this an LED? Or is it a strobe? Does it have a flash tube or is the anti collision feature a white hi intensity LED?

The only noise issues I've ever had with LED's were when consumer grade ham radios got hot then there was noise in the speakers.

Strobe flash tubes however, the shielding must only be grounded at one end. Check all the related grounds. Check for corroded grounds. Including the battery. Check for ground loops. Filters are an attempt to mask the noise as a last resort.
 
Ok. Please clarify. Is this an LED? Or is it a strobe? Does it have a flash tube or is the anti collision feature a white hi intensity LED?

The only noise issues I've ever had with LED's were when consumer grade ham radios got hot then there was noise in the speakers.

Strobe flash tubes however, the shielding must only be grounded at one end. Check all the related grounds. Check for corroded grounds. Including the battery. Check for ground loops. Filters are an attempt to mask the noise as a last resort.

This is a brand new LED Nav/Strobe/Position unit. Everything is integrated and it does not have a power unit..... That is why I am curious about that ticking noise.
 
With noise you have the thing making the noise and the thing susceptible to the noise. Sounds like new strobe is making the noise.

Noise couples different ways. It can couple through RF, Magnetic fields (long parallel runs of high current similar to xfrmr), electric fields ( like a capacitor), or simply be conducted through power or ground wiring.

You could get a spectrum analyzer, or hand held radio and see if you receive it as RF.

Might try putting an o scope or as on power or ground and looking for it there. Possibly ad filter to power or ground on emitter or susceptible unit.
 
A "ticking noise" would lead me to filter the power supply to the light. Sounds like the LED circuitry has a really sharp on/off function that causes a steep, small voltage drop in the whole electrical system, audible through the speaker of headsets via the audio panel or intercom.

Dan
 
Guys,

I will try to test the unit tomorrow with a handheld just to rule out RF. The wiring is new... Lets see what happens....
 
If its truly a flash tube strobe, there is a capacitance power supply somewhere.

Rather than dither back and forth over what constitutes a strobe to you, would you please post a part number or model number and manufacturer so we can get an idea exactly what type of electronic noisemaker you are using??

Also. I may have missed it. What airframe is it installed on??
 
If its truly a flash tube strobe, there is a capacitance power supply somewhere.

Rather than dither back and forth over what constitutes a strobe to you, would you please post a part number or model number and manufacturer so we can get an idea exactly what type of electronic noisemaker you are using??

Also. I may have missed it. What airframe is it installed on??

The Nav/Strobe/Position LED Combo is an Aveo Aurora Ultra. They have no external power supply. They are installed on a Cessna 172 M. BTW They look awesome at night!!!
 

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When you say "ticking noise" is it in time with the strobe portion firing, or constant?

When they ran the new power cables from the dash panel switch, are they bundled with audio wiring at any point in the harness where the wires are virtually in contact with each other?

Continuous DC loads create a nice consistent continuous magnetic field around the wire.

Pulsing DC loads may look like AC on the "bounce" as the light pulsing circuitry turns the new "strobes" on and off. They induce pulses in wires near them. If you had the old Nav lights and flipped the switch on and off rapidly, you might hear the same sound.

Audio is AC. "Coupling" between audio cabling and a cable that used to carry a continuous DC load (nav lights or a power source to a traditional strobe flash circuit out in the wing away from all the audio circuits), that is now a pulsed load, may now be happening behind your panel.

You may need to re-route the "strobe" power circuit away from any audio wiring.

Also check the run from under the panel to the wingtip... does it run behind an audio jack or other audio system input or output? Tie-wrapped to a cable coming out of a radio?

If they must physically cross, cross them at a fixed 90 degree angle. Parallel will couple the most noise from one to the other.

Try to isolate whether the noise is coming in through a specific input or output on the audio panel. See if it continues if the audio panel is switched off and in fail safe mode hooked to Com 1 only. If not, select the Crew isolate switch and see if it gets better or stays the same. See if having headsets in all jacks makes it worse or better. Try deselecting everything on the audio panel while leaving it powered, and see if it's still there.

With that testing you may find a mode or input that's worst. Suspect the cabling from that radio, or input is strapped to the power cable somewhere and start tracing.

Does your headset cord position change it? If yes, suspect the power cable run is right where your headset cord hangs, behind a thin piece of sidewall plastic and carpet. Also suspect that the inputs to the audio panel may have RF bypass capacitors that are dried out and leaking, or we're blown in a past "event". (Or on a cheap audio panel, never existed.)

If you can figure out if it's coming from cable "cross-talk" an appropriate ferrite bead of the right material may be used as an RF choke on the wire to block or subdue the induced voltage. Re-routing is better.

If the strobes are just hideously noisy at RF frequencies and inducing oscillation in the audio panel's amplifiers, a better case/frame ground of the audio panel itself may help if it's in a metal case.

A handheld oscilloscope and knowledge of how to use it might be employed "listening" to various cables.

Or even a simple lineman's "butt set" for a high impedance amplified audio speaker to probe around and see which wires its travelling on. In on-hook mode, don't close the loop with off-hook.

There is significant chance you can short out the DC bias going to the headset jacks. A good audio panel won't care. Others you might damage. Caution advised.

There's about a billion things to check. Lots of labor. Lots of shops just "shotgun" in a filter somewhere, hoping for the best. Without finding root-cause.

Newer Cessnas have single point bus grounding and home-run grounds back to it. Older Cessnas have ground-loop problems because the aircraft structure is used as a ground.
 
When you say "ticking noise" is it in time with the strobe portion firing, or constant?

When they ran the new power cables from the dash panel switch, are they bundled with audio wiring at any point in the harness where the wires are virtually in contact with each other?

Continuous DC loads create a nice consistent continuous magnetic field around the wire.

Pulsing DC loads may look like AC on the "bounce" as the light pulsing circuitry turns the new "strobes" on and off. They induce pulses in wires near them. If you had the old Nav lights and flipped the switch on and off rapidly, you might hear the same sound.

Audio is AC. "Coupling" between audio cabling and a cable that used to carry a continuous DC load (nav lights or a power source to a traditional strobe flash circuit out in the wing away from all the audio circuits), that is now a pulsed load, may now be happening behind your panel.

You may need to re-route the "strobe" power circuit away from any audio wiring.

Also check the run from under the panel to the wingtip... does it run behind an audio jack or other audio system input or output? Tie-wrapped to a cable coming out of a radio?

If they must physically cross, cross them at a fixed 90 degree angle. Parallel will couple the most noise from one to the other.

Try to isolate whether the noise is coming in through a specific input or output on the audio panel. See if it continues if the audio panel is switched off and in fail safe mode hooked to Com 1 only. If not, select the Crew isolate switch and see if it gets better or stays the same. See if having headsets in all jacks makes it worse or better. Try deselecting everything on the audio panel while leaving it powered, and see if it's still there.

With that testing you may find a mode or input that's worst. Suspect the cabling from that radio, or input is strapped to the power cable somewhere and start tracing.

Does your headset cord position change it? If yes, suspect the power cable run is right where your headset cord hangs, behind a thin piece of sidewall plastic and carpet. Also suspect that the inputs to the audio panel may have RF bypass capacitors that are dried out and leaking, or we're blown in a past "event". (Or on a cheap audio panel, never existed.)

If you can figure out if it's coming from cable "cross-talk" an appropriate ferrite bead of the right material may be used as an RF choke on the wire to block or subdue the induced voltage. Re-routing is better.

If the strobes are just hideously noisy at RF frequencies and inducing oscillation in the audio panel's amplifiers, a better case/frame ground of the audio panel itself may help if it's in a metal case.

A handheld oscilloscope and knowledge of how to use it might be employed "listening" to various cables.

Or even a simple lineman's "butt set" for a high impedance amplified audio speaker to probe around and see which wires its travelling on. In on-hook mode, don't close the loop with off-hook.

There is significant chance you can short out the DC bias going to the headset jacks. A good audio panel won't care. Others you might damage. Caution advised.

There's about a billion things to check. Lots of labor. Lots of shops just "shotgun" in a filter somewhere, hoping for the best. Without finding root-cause.

Newer Cessnas have single point bus grounding and home-run grounds back to it. Older Cessnas have ground-loop problems because the aircraft structure is used as a ground.

Thanks for your very well informed tip DP! I will start checking the wiring as soon as possible. It is a labor of love......
 
The Nav/Strobe/Position LED Combo is an Aveo Aurora Ultra. They have no external power supply. They are installed on a Cessna 172 M. BTW They look awesome at night!!!

Got it.. They are not "strobes" in the technical sense.. with a capacitor and flash tube, sending a spark through a vacuum tube. The manufacturer calls em strobes because they want to, and the lights "strobe"... pedantic nit, but eliminates one source of RF interference from the equation. Your lights are 100% LED's.. superbright, but LED's..

Moving on.... I'd check grounds and power leads out to the lights. I am not familiar with the 172's innards, but unless the device directly grounds to bare metal that its mounted on, check the ground wires and connectors. Bad grounds are a frequent source of noise. Clean where the ground wire connects to the airframe or maybe even tap a new screw at that spot to get fresh non-oxidized metal.

Check the bonding on your antenna's for your radio (grounds.. again...)...

Finally, something to keep in mind is.. I dont know how robust/well built these things really are, but if the "strobing" mechanism is not solid state.... i.e. there is an internal mechanical relay in the mix, that relay can be a source of RFI..
 
Yeah a relay would be noisy. I hope for their high pricing, they didn't put a relay in there.
 
Yeah a relay would be noisy. I hope for their high pricing, they didn't put a relay in there.

Relays are pretty much a thing of the past in modern electronics. I sure hope they're beyond that stage in their development. Even Cessna didn't use relays in their 1970s tail beacon flashers. 40 years ago already.

Dan
 
Yeah, but they used 'em under the cowl...

(Starter solenoid. Master solenoid. Best MOPAR parts they could find. Ha.)
 
Yeah, but they used 'em under the cowl...

(Starter solenoid. Master solenoid. Best MOPAR parts they could find. Ha.)

There's less danger of a relay shorting closed than a power transistor, I think, so they're still used in those applications. I wonder if there's a MOSFET capable of handling the huge current draws when the starter is cranking? 400 amps or so? And would it resist the voltage spikes generated when the starter is disengaged?

Dan
 
Guys,

Update: All of a sudden the ticking noise from the LED "strobe" ended... Now is the flasing beacon that is giving me a ticking noise..... Back to square one....:mad2:
 
There's less danger of a relay shorting closed than a power transistor, I think, so they're still used in those applications. I wonder if there's a MOSFET capable of handling the huge current draws when the starter is cranking? 400 amps or so? And would it resist the voltage spikes generated when the starter is disengaged?

All true. Switching big current requires something that can survive such duty.
 
Were you able to sort this out? I recently installed Aveo LEDs (Galactica wingtip strobe/pos/nav and Galactica RedBaron XP LED Beacon) and am experiencing the same issue as you with the LED Beacon. I hear a ticking noise on the com radios. Louder on Com 2 than Com 1. We have tried ferrite choke filters, testing different positive & ground wiring but no luck. Physically moving the led light seems to make the ticking sound appear/disappear so we're suspicious of the LED light itself. Unfortunately Aveo is not being very helpful with this.

Guys,

Update: All of a sudden the ticking noise from the LED "strobe" ended... Now is the flasing beacon that is giving me a ticking noise..... Back to square one....:mad2:
 
I have the navstrobe led lights on a cessna 150 and a citabria. Turning the lights on would break the squelch on the radio instantly. I also had loud poping noise in the radio when the leds would flash. I had the exact same problem in both planes. I unplugged them one at a time and found the anticollision light on the tail to be the culprit in each plane. i tried putting a different led bulb in that postion and still had radio issues. I tried cleaning grounds and running new ground wires directly to the front of the plane and it made no difference. I had a ferrite ring laying around from another project and tried it on the power wire right behind the bulb socket in the tail. I took the power wire and wound it around the ring several times and the radio interference was gone instantly and competely. Had the same result in both planes. I think it is more of an issue with the length of the wire running to the tail than the lights themsevles.
 
Tried the ferrite choke and actually made it worse. Even ran new shielded wiring form the led light directly to the battery bypassing existing plane wiring & light swtich and clicking noise still there. Physically moving the LED light even an inch would make the sound go away and come back so suspicious of the actual light. Got a hold of Aveo and they sent another light to test with.
 
I installed Whelen 650 Orion strobes in my wingtips, which is where my VOR antennas are located, no problem. This allowed me to remove the power supplies.
Does it happen on all frequencies?
 
Mine is very close to the VOR antennas but I've only noticed interference on Com radios. Com 2 louder than Com 1. Got a new light to test.

I installed Whelen 650 Orion strobes in my wingtips, which is where my VOR antennas are located, no problem. This allowed me to remove the power supplies.
Does it happen on all frequencies?
 
Interesting subject. I have the traditional Whelen nav/strobes in my wingtips with the central power in the fuse. I hear them firing in my headset as soon as I flip the switch. This thread gives me several things to try to isolate the exact culprit.
 
Mine is very close to the VOR antennas but I've only noticed interference on Com radios. Com 2 louder than Com 1. Got a new light to test.
VOR is receive only (unless DME). Transmitting antennas such as com are far more likely to cause issues.
 
Well the replacement LED beacons are doing the same so it's not the beacon. It appears to be location driven as if we move the beacon away from the top of the rudder the noise goes away. Not sure where to go with this now other than trying a different brand of LED light.
 
Discovered something yesterday. It seems the radio interference is coming directly through the com antennae and not the aircraft wiring. When we move the light closer to the radio antenna we would hear the clicking noise and actually the closer the led gets to the antenna we even start hearing a lot more static on the radios. If we move the LED away from the line of sight of the com antennae then the noise goes away. Further we also noticed that even w/ the LED beacon turned off if we physically touch/grab one of the antennas with our hands we would get a lot of noise on the radios.
 
Off the wall thought: Is the bonding jumper on the rudder in good shape and secure?
 
Yes that was checked but we don't think is the wiring as we ran wiring from the LED directly to the battery to test and same results.

Off the wall thought: Is the bonding jumper on the rudder in good shape and secure?
 
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