Radar on for bird avoidance?

[Teller1900]

In light of a recent series of bird strikes, my company recently came out with a memo advising us to turn our radar on before the start of the takeoff roll leave it on until after landing. They said it should help keep the birds away from us and that they'll be "collecting data" to analyze the practice.

Has anyone ever heard of this as an effective deterrent for bird strikes? Is it likely worth the additional wear and tear on the radar system? Not that I would question the intelligence and forethought of the brilliant minds in management, but...I question the intelligence and forethought of the minds in management.

 

[rottydaddy]

Just out of curiosity, how exactly is the radar supposed to keep them away from your aircraft...especially at the speeds you normally fly? Did they explain this? They know it's not a force field, right?

I'm not saying it's not worth a try... I suppose they might sense it and perceive it as danger.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Just out of curiosity, how exactly is the radar supposed to keep them away from your aircraft...especially at the speeds you normally fly? Did they explain this? They know it's not a force field, right?

I'm not saying it's not worth a try... I suppose they might sense it and perceive it as danger.

They'll feel the radio waves and believe their believe he's got a lock on them, and take evasive action?

or you guys are trying to kill migratory birds.

June 21, 1954
Many ornithologists and pigeon breeders believe that radars, which are increasing in Europe both in numbers and power, interfere in some unknown way with the mysterious directional sense that guides birds. Some of them report seeing migrating wild ducks enter the field of a powerful radar, wheel in confusion and fly south instead of north.

 

[Everskyward]

Has anyone ever heard of this as an effective deterrent for bird strikes?

I have heard the theory before but I have also heard that it is urban legend. Personally I can't see how birds can possible detect the radar signals in time for them to get out of the way, that is if they can detect them at all.

 

[Teller1900]

They say that it "acts as a warning device and may signal to the birds to divert from their flight path." I'd be worried that if they're above us and get spooked, they're going to divert their flight path into our windows.

Trust me, the force field jokes have been flying freer than the birds we're zapping with radar.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM91-212.pdf

I have to believe that with all the educational effort that the Air Force has put into the BASH program, any credence WRT the use of aircraft weather radar to scare off the little (and not so little sometimes) birdies would be in bold print.

You get more effect by flying with your lights on in pulse mode if you have it and that's from the last BASH training course I attended.

Seriously though, if you want to get to the heart of the problem it's us. There's far more effort in increasing bird habitats than there is in encouraging them to be elsewhere. When is it a great idea to build a landfill or move a nesting area into a known aircraft departure and arrival path?

 

[Teller1900]

Thanks John! Long time, how've you been? I'm sure you can appreciate why we're so doubtful of this policy. Unfortunately the document you linked keeps saying that "the file is damaged and cannot be repaired." Is it just my browser?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd like to see the source information on which your company is basing this recommendation. Something they found on the internet, perhaps?

 

[Everskyward]

Is it just my browser?

Maybe. I can open it.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Doing well Matt, thanks. Garrett Grenades??? I think I know where that came from (K.B.).

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I'm getting an stc for those deer whistles to be put on the cowling or nose of light a/c, birds run for it when they hear them, I will get rich!

 

[Teller1900]

I'd like to see the source information on which your company is basing this recommendation. Something they found on the internet, perhaps?

I would too. The memo to the crews is a 1/2 page citing "some sources suggest..."

 

[Fast n' Furious]

It was either Art Bell or Al Gore wasn't it?

 

[Teller1900]

Maybe. I can open it.

Hmmm...

Doing well Matt, thanks. Garrett Grenades??? I think I know where that came from (K.B.).

Spot on! Amusingly, I just passed him in the jetbridge today...first time I've seen him since he came back from three months on the DL. I guess I'm channeling him now.

I'm getting an stc for those deer whistles to be put on the cowling or nose of light a/c, birds run for it when they hear them, I will get rich!

That's the other new popular joke. We don't need so many pitot tubes, we can just replace one or two with deer whistles. There might actually be something to your STC in NH/VT/WV/etc.

 

[Henning]

I have heard the theory before but I have also heard that it is urban legend. Personally I can't see how birds can possible detect the radar signals in time for them to get out of the way, that is if they can detect them at all.

I don't know, when I get in the path of a radar beam, I can feel it in my eyeballs. That may be what they are looking at. I remember talking to the General at Shepard AFB about this during a round of golf, I think the USAF has done some research on it because birdstrikes are a major issue for them. They even cut the grass a very specific height.

 

[gismo]

I don't know, when I get in the path of a radar beam, I can feel it in my eyeballs. That may be what they are looking at. I remember talking to the General at Shepard AFB about this during a round of golf, I think the USAF has done some research on it because birdstrikes are a major issue for them. They even cut the grass a very specific height.

If you get close enough to a radar it will warm your eyes, primarily because the shape of an eyeball tends to collect/focus the RF. Get too close and it will actually damage them. But I think you're talking about powerful ship's radars which could have a perceptible effect out to a few hundred feet or more. The feeble stuff we have in the airplanes probably couldn't be felt beyond a few dozen feet, is that far enough to make a difference? I doubt it. The other issue suggesting that this would be ineffective is that even if the birds could feel the RF they wouldn't be able to tell which direction it was coming from so I doubt it would help avoid a collision. I believe there may be some evidence that flashing landing lights might help sometimes.

 

[RotorAndWing]

In light of a recent series of bird strikes, my company recently came out with a memo advising us to turn our radar on before the start of the takeoff roll leave it on until after landing. They said it should help keep the birds away from us and that they'll be "collecting data" to analyze the practice.

Has anyone ever heard of this as an effective deterrent for bird strikes? Is it likely worth the additional wear and tear on the radar system? Not that I would question the intelligence and forethought of the brilliant minds in management, but...I question the intelligence and forethought of the minds in management.

I heard this "legend" over 20 years ago. We had some pilots that absolutely believed in it.

My experience? It's just an urban legend. The weather radar used in most commercial airplanes doesn't put out that much energy. Back in my Navy days we use to fire up the APS-21 radar on the EP-3 and point it at the hangar. If the hangar lights were off all the fluorescent bulbs would light up. A weather radar won't do that unless it's a very small bulb held next to the antenna and even then it usually doesn't matter.

As far as wear and tear, it's negligible. If your company wants that procedure, just smile and comply. They write the paychecks.

 

[ScottM]

In light of a recent series of bird strikes, my company recently came out with a memo advising us to turn our radar on before the start of the takeoff roll leave it on until after landing. They said it should help keep the birds away from us and that they'll be "collecting data" to analyze the practice.

Has anyone ever heard of this as an effective deterrent for bird strikes? Is it likely worth the additional wear and tear on the radar system? Not that I would question the intelligence and forethought of the brilliant minds in management, but...I question the intelligence and forethought of the minds in management.

Not likely.

What they may be reacting to is a report that at SEA-TAc they are using radar for bird control. But there the radar is being used to track the birds so that pyrotechnics can be used to scare away birds who may be in a compromising position to airport operations.

 

[One Short]

I'm getting an stc for those deer whistles to be put on the cowling or nose of light a/c, birds run for it when they hear them, I will get rich!

I freind of mine said hers worked really, really well.........

Until they got clogged with deer hair!

Barb

 

[poadeleted20]

As far as wear and tear, it's negligible. If your company wants that procedure, just smile and comply. They write the paychecks.

Right. If you come back with bird strike damage, and they ask if the radar was on, you really want to be able to truthfully say, "Yes, sir," unless you want them taking the damage out of that paycheck.

 

[dmccormack]

Might as well mount an air rifle under the nose:

Air Rifles. Use of air rifles to disperse birds in hangars has proven successful in removing birds. When dealing with a roosting flock of pigeons, starlings or House Sparrows, an air rifle is probably the least expensive control technique. AF PAM 91-212

 

[Joe B]

In light of a recent series of bird strikes, my company recently came out with a memo advising us to turn our radar on before the start of the takeoff roll leave it on until after landing. They said it should help keep the birds away from us and that they'll be "collecting data" to analyze the practice.

It's so the birds will be nicely microwaved and fall out of the sky before you hit them. There's a guy under your route now that wants to know who keeps dropping cooked birds in his back yard?

 

[Skip Miller]

But I think you're talking about powerful ship's radars which could have a perceptible effect out to a few hundred feet or more. The feeble stuff we have in the airplanes probably couldn't be felt beyond a few dozen feet, is that far enough to make a difference? I doubt it.

I agree, Lance. When I was in the Navy I saw some guys on the ship next to us using the Fire Control Radar to drop seagulls, very dead, into the water. But that was at ranges less than 50 yards.

-Skip

 

[TMetzinger]

They aren't trying to kill the birds, just cook them to reduce catering costs....

Seriously... I believe the Precise Flight or another company has done actual research that showed a decrease in bird activity due to specific wavelengths of light and frequencies of flashing, but I don't recall ever hearing that radar works.

Though I do remember taking a CG academy "cadidiot" and putting him down at the end of a pier with two foil-covered paddles and making him walk around while we "calibrated our radar" and gave him directions on the PA. The commercial fishermen in the area got a great big smile from this.