James331
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James331
True, and I’ve seen people carry more workload than needed because of some ego thing with hand flying. Inverse it true too
Quit using the autopilot.
- Thread starter Finnelly
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True, and I’ve seen people carry more workload than needed because of some ego thing with hand flying. Inverse it true too
Umm... this is from the private pilot ACS:
Acknowledge cues of the impending stall and then recover promptly after a full stall occurs.
James331
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James331
They destroyed slow flight and tried their best to destroy stall training too
https://www.flyingmag.com/faa-redefines-slow-flight-and-stall-procedures/
They already removed spin training, and before folks say how spin training killed millions or whatever, we still do it now for CFIs and upset training, and it ain’t raining airplanes.
Add to that they removed instrument training for their new sport pilots license.
Basically they tried/or have dumbed down training on the top three things that actually results in crashes.
Seems like the FAA is getting further from reality and it’s getting closer to having to both train people for the test, then having to train them to be a safe functioning pilot via real slow flight, stalls, spins, real soft field, tailwind landings, etc.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'd fire my reviewer if all they wanted me to do is fly vor-a approaches by hand. We have talkie movie pictures now.
James331
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James331
They destroyed slow flight and tried their best to destroy stall training too
https://www.flyingmag.com/faa-redefines-slow-flight-and-stall-procedures/
They removed spin training, and before folks say how spin training killed millions or whatever, we still do it now for CFIs and upset training, and it ain’t raining airplanes.
Add to that they basically have no real instrument training for their new sport pilots license.
Basically they removed or neutered training on the three things that actually crash planes.
No need for a diatribe. You said "the FAA removes full stall training from all certs." I pointed out it was still there. Sorry you are upset by that.
James331
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I don’t really care, doesn’t upset me or please me one way or another
Fact is they removed lots of training, and the only saving grace is the industry had to yell at the FAA to don’t dumb down stall training further, you’d think it would be the other way around.
Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ghery Pettit
It's a device that either does not exist in any of our club planes, or if it does, it is labeled "Inop".
No problem, I haven't used one in years. I gave up when one that "worked" hunted all over the place while trying to track a VOR. It's labeled "Inop" now, and has been for several years.
And this means you're illegally operating an unairworthy aircraft. If the autopilot doesn't work as designed, just labelling it "INOP" does not comply with the regs. It has to be removed or deactivated.
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Greg Bockelman
Assuming facts not in evidence, Counselor.
MooneyDriver78
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They removed it for a good reason. It wasn’t realistic.
CFI announcement “we are now going to do stalls, keep the ball centered...”
In real life, you don’t get a warning, chances are if you made the mistake of stalling the plane, probably the ball wont be centered either.
They need full motion sims so they can make it more realistic, no announcement, more realistic scenarios: icing, instrument failure, etc.
James331
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Well removing much of slow flight to know what it’s like to walk the plane on the edge was a detriment
As was removing spin training
Frankly those two skills will keep people much safer, getting into a steep turn while slow and seeing you have cross controls has MUCH more of a noticing effect if you have done real slow flight and spins and you will be much faster on the rudder if a wing ever drops.
I’ve experimented with my students who do full slow flying, falling leaf stalls and spins prior to first solo, comparing them to another CFI who just does the neutered ACS training, the reaction in a stall is noticeable different in the speed and precision of the recovery.
SoCal RV Flyer
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SoCal RV Flyer
I installed the pitch servo only on my RV-9A and believe me, it's a Godsend in a pitch-sensitive airplane when you fly from SoCal to OSH!
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
My STEC30 with GPSS is very good for such a simple AP, but it doesn't do well when you get garbage vectors, tight turns and a "keep your speed up" like I got the other day from NorCal going into KMRY, with two layers of clouds to deal with, after he'd already vectored me across the approach to get in a molasses slow Cessna, then 10 miles out to sea to get in an airliner. Those are the times where you just hand fly the plane down, especially knowing you're on final and the only comm change you are getting is tower, which you should have had in when you checked in with approach.
But yeah, I really enjoy having the AP to keep fresh in cruise and also to handle approaches where the workload is getting obnoxious.
Some jag here decided to be a clown about that once though.
That wasn't autopilot
They usually don't ask questions till people are a mile off, even on V186. I was on that and some poor guy in a Bonanza got asked by ATC if of his VOR was off, cause he was about a mile off. He said "it's not the plane, it's me." He would have been in VMC too, though over the top of a pretty solid layer. She was nice to him. They do get really funny with altitudes though.
It is definitely a good idea to magenta line that route though.
But yeah, I really enjoy having the AP to keep fresh in cruise and also to handle approaches where the workload is getting obnoxious.
Some jag here decided to be a clown about that once though.
That wasn't autopilot
They usually don't ask questions till people are a mile off, even on V186. I was on that and some poor guy in a Bonanza got asked by ATC if of his VOR was off, cause he was about a mile off. He said "it's not the plane, it's me." He would have been in VMC too, though over the top of a pretty solid layer. She was nice to him. They do get really funny with altitudes though.
It is definitely a good idea to magenta line that route though.
Correct. The point was that they were so used to managing the FMS that they totalled f'ed it up when they had to fly it by hand.
Wayne
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
Alluding that someone would "have a hard time passing with me" has never made sense to me when I hear instructors and evaluators say things like that. (I know a flight review isn't pass/fail) - what is the intent of saying that?
I've only been an instructor for 14 years and an evaluator for 13; many folks on here have given much more instruction and many more checkrides than I have. Over time, I have noticed a change in my attitude towards the process though. As I've gotten more experienced I try to encourage the students more than I used to - although apparently my grading scale has gotten tougher at the same time. IMO, the grading scale speaks for itself. I have no reason to think that anyone who's already passed a checkride wouldn't be able to pass the next one. Is it not the same for FAA certificates and flight reviews?
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
If JFK jr had been taught how to use the A/P, he and 2 others would still by with us today.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I never said anything about a hard time passing, since it isnt really a pass fail thing. What I took from comments in the thread is that there are quite a few that are VERY uncomfortable outside their button pushing and let the AP do everything, and I don't do flight reviews where we see how comfortable you can be pushing buttons. People don't like being outside their comfort zone, which is why they wouldn't want a FR with me.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Unless the AP goes TU. The fact is he went flying in conditions he wasn't proficient at. That's what killed him and 2 pax, not an AP.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
I don’t see how you can interpret any of the posts of pro-AP crowd as being outside their comfort zone.
Tom
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Read them again.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
He apparently knew how to use it, but switched it off when he got disoriented. He should have just left it on until he got the Vineyard in sight.
It was much more likely that his vacuum system would go TU than his AP, which would have meant it was MUCH safer to keep the AP on and just fly NAV/GPSS.
He was flying in legal conditions, but ones which essentially simulated IMC in legal VMC.
You're right, he can't. No one who is talking about the workload reducing safety enhancement of an autopilot is saying they can't, or even won't, fly in IMC by hand.
Autopilot is a tool to be used, just like a compass, DG, AI, GPS, CDI, HSI, whatever. There's a reason the ACS requires that an AP be demonstrated on an approach if the airplane is so equipped. So the examiner can determine whether the pilot can effectively manage the systems on an airplane.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
This might be the best response ever.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Didn't say the A/P killed him. More of not knowing how to use the A/P that could have made the flight a non event.
And I agree that the conditions were not the best conditions for a low time VFR only pilot.
Mooney Fan
Cleared for Takeoff
As I recall, a VOR check on the ground that is within tolerance, coupled with a centered VOR needle in flight, does not equate to being 1-mile off course on V186. Pilots would look at their NAV and say WTF, as they take the vector
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Which furthers my belief that he did not know how to use the A/P properly. Yes, he should have left it on until the destination was in sight or made a 180 degree turn and returned to base.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
I think everyone agrees with that, though he did his due diligence before starting the flight, getting a briefing about the VFR conditions, and had apparently done quite well in his instrument training. The fact remains that keeping his AP on would have saved them..
Knowing how to properly use an AP would have probably saved that guy, and his whole family, over BFL in the Lance, despite his flying into actual IMC intentionally and accepting a clearance improperly.
Of course, which is why the guy owned up to the fact that he was flying poorly. What was odd is that he wasn't in IMC.
Mooney Fan
Cleared for Takeoff
Simple rule. Don’t let the A/P fly you into conditions you could not otherwise fly by hand. Not just approaches, but enroute as well.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Only for people overly dependent on auto pilots and think they will never fail. Both planes I've flown with AP they did NOT do what they were supposed to and I disengaged them - and they were only supposed to fly the HDG. But I get why you'd think it is the best response ever.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
A thousand times this. And if you can't otherwise fly by hand better than the PTS/ACS get your ass out of the sky.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
So, I'm assuming you don't use trim. I mean, you don't technically need it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Not a valid comparison, and you know why it isn't. But there are some planes I didn't use trim for entire flights.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Some people overuse trim, just like some people overrely or underr ely on autopilot. It's actually a similar concept.
I don't know. I've had equal numbers of vacuum failures as AP failures (one each).
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Anecdotes are not evidence. Vacuums statistically fail more than autopilots do.
So where's the statistics? You've provided nothing but an anecdote as well.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
If anecdotes are not evidence, then they can never be evidence. So where does the data come from if not from a large number of....yep...anecdotes.
Not really. Pulled a few TCDS just for poops and laughs and all the ones I looked at, trim is required item, autopilot is not. Next thing you'll say is some nonsense about using the ailerons to turn.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Vacuums are design limited items. They either fail or you pay to replace them.
Yeah, so where's anything in your statement to assert that the fail more often than autopilots? By your logic, you should NEVER have a vacuum failure as long as you replace them. And your statement is patently wrong anyhow. It would border on being possibly correct if you said DRY VACUUM PUMPS are such.