Quick back to back approaches…..Normal?

LmannyR said:
Are these normal tactics to IFR training?
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Yes, they are. To some degree they are realistic; to some degree they are not. IFR training is very approach intensive. To give you the broadest experience with them but do it without hugely increasing flight time (and costs), they get bunched up. They are also intended so you can see how much things can pile up before your brain shuts down. Mostly unrealistic but it happens.

Where it is realistic is that there will be times you need to be able to regroup quickly. For example, it is not at all uncommon for your to expect one approach and be given another. It happened for real to me on my checkride, along with an ATC assigned hold, when they had a runway change. It happened a few years ago around here, resulting in a fatality when the pilot apparently didn't' know how to load a different approach in his GPS (takes about 6 seconds). Or you may get an enroute reroute with different waypoints you never heard of. When it does, you need strategies such as saying, "I need some delay vectors while I set things up," "can yo give me a vector to JUDUD while I set it up," or something similar to give you time. And while it is important to brief an approach the long way, it's just as important to know how to review the killer items efficiently. Hopefully your CFII is working with you on those and not just checking off checkride boxes.
 
Country Flier said:
But many use the GPS for DME...

And if that's the case, why time a LOC then?
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Because that's how you fly a LOC with no fixes. If the GPS/DME craps out. You fly the missed as published. And if RADAR goes out too, well, I guess it's your time.
 
EdFred said:
Because that's how you fly a LOC with no fixes. If the GPS/DME craps out. You fly the missed as published. And if RADAR goes out too, well, I guess it's your time.
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LOL ok. I'll keep timing my ILS then.
 
EdFred said:
One thing I missed in the original post. Why are you using a timer on an ILS at all? Your missed is an altitude on the ILS, not time past the FAF. And like I had a CFII and DPE tell me. You fly either the LOC or the ILS, not both. If the GS goes out on the ILS, don't switch it to a LOC approach in the middle of it. Go missed, and do it as an LOC. There's 0 reason to use a timer on an ILS.
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The usual answer (give here) is to be able to switch to the LOC in mid-stream. I think you and I will agree that's an incredibly bad idea unless you know the approach like the back of your and and the ceilings are high enough that identifying the MAP is irrelevant. That's the one time I actually did it.

But there is one very good reason to time the approach on an ILS. If you time every approach, whether you need to or not, you will not forget to start a timer when you need to. Far less important in a GPS world, but a good SOP, at least in the days when timing was more important than it is now.
 
all you really need to know about approaches (all stolen from other folks):


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midlifeflyer said:
Because the only time you might ever fly one is during a GPS outage.
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I've done them when GPS is fine but the GS has gone out. I've also done them in lieu of the ILS to dive and drive through a layer.
 
chemgeek said:
If flying any procedure with a GNS-430/530 box, just don't do vectors-to-final even if ATC pinky-swears they are going to give you vectors to final. Just load the whole approach, and when you get the curveball from ATC, hopefully the fix they send you to will already be in the box. I've been burned on the vectors-to-final one too many times.
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:D BTDT. Recent return trip from Vero Beach heading north into my fuel stop at KLRO - Mt. Pleasant SC. I was given a vector then direct to the CHS VOR expect vectors for GPS 17 into LRO. Controllers switched and the next guy gave me direct GINNE, an initial approach fix on GPS 17. Chug and plug on the GPS and continue in while beating myself up for thinking the VTF fantasy would be good to go. :rolleyes:
 
EdFred said:
I agree that turning early is bad in mountainous areas. I agree that flying past is bad in mountainous areas. But when you are in a valley approach you aren't going to be LOC and timer only. It's going to be DME or GPS required.
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Does every ILS with tall obstacles nearby say DME or GPS required? (I'm not saying they don't; I just don't know the answer.)

If I'm flying a rental plane without a DME or GPS, or the database is expired, and the glideslope fails and the missed approach requires a turn, how will I know when it's safe to begin the turn? Setting the timer for a co-located localizer approach answers that question.

In any case, I don't see the harm in getting into that habit. Is it possible to have too many backups?

I never said to turn immediately. I said to go missed immediately. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference.
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Which, as should be obvious by now, is subject to misinterpretation. Saying, "begin the missed-approach climb immediately" would avoid confusion.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
The checkride is usually rapid fire approaches. Real life, typically not so much. Just know your GPS cold and be ready to push buttons. If you have an autopilot, use it when loading things into the GPS.
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EdFred said:
Perhaps you missed the part where you shouldn't switch the type of approach you are on in the middle of it. You fly one, or you fly the other, not both. What happens when you are below an altitude for the LOC but not the ILS when the GS goes out? Maybe your CFII needs to re-evaluate what he teaches, and you should question a little more.
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I didn’t miss what you wrote. Only following what the instructor want me to do. Time it on both…..I’m just a peon learning how he want me to.

I understand your logic.
 
Country Flier said:
I've done them when GPS is fine but the GS has gone out. I've also done them in lieu of the ILS to dive and drive through a layer.
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There are probably a few airports where this would not be the case (do you have an example?), but I find it difficult to come up with a situation in which I would opt for a LOC when I have an RNAV approach available. Same dive and drive options for ice, no worries about checking frequencies or switching between GPS and VLOC, and with WAAS, a GP when the ILS GS is out.
 
I'll admit to only skimming the thread but seems like lots of good points.

I look at it this way... this dynamic while training only just adds to the drink that you're taking form a fire hose.... adds to the challenge. Embrace that because it'll make you better

What I mean by the dynamic in that.... its the interpersonal dynamic. When I read the original post, I channel a lot of the frustrations I've had flying with many of the CFI's I've flown with for rental checkouts as well as for training.
There is a certain bandwidth in your brain for figuring out how you will deal with the situation at hand...what does "the book" say?...or what's logic say?.... what's the easiest way based on your familiarity with the tools at hand? etc.
but you are always having to second guess all of that, asking what does the instructor (or examiner) want to see?
and it seems all too often we end up having to do it the instructor's way....which may not be the way that works best for you...and sometimes might not even be the best way
because everybody thinks about things in different ways, have different strengths and weaknesses, etc.

....so then, do you can't help but to second guess if that other ways really are a better way for you?
It erodes confidence I think, big time!!!
I've long thought that instructors should often keep their mouths shut more.
but it also adds stress and challenge to better exercise your mind
and usually they have a good point so it shows you other perspectives and habits....
 
Only thing I would disagree with your instructor on is handling the turn to the waypoint. Programming a box is a great way to lose situational awareness. He’s teaching you to rush it, which in my opinion is bad. If you’re confused or behind, fess up to him or the controller (depending on how busy it sounds). I’ve said something along the lines of “Approach, N12345, we need a couple minutes to reprogram the gps; can you give us a heading?” Or asked the instructor if ATC is busy and it’s better we keep moving where ATC needs us, but I’m trying to manage my being behind. Or sometimes just don’t turn until I’m set; it depends on the situation (if I was in a valley, waiting wouldn’t be choice 1, but maybe in the middle of Iowa?). Because crazy does happen.

Always program the panel GPS first. It’s the thing you should be using to navigate and on new systems that link iPad and gps, my experience has been that the panel -> iPad path goes smoother than the iPad -> panel path.
 
This was the hardest part of my IFR training. Learning that NOTHING ever goes as planned in IFR. At some point I wanted to scream at my instructor, "Can we, just once, go out and fly a flight plan and approach, exactly as planned and briefed?!!"

In retrospect, thus is exactly what I should have asked him to do. Instead I just assumed he knew what was best for me. I was wrong and should have spoken up more about what I needed and not just tried to suck it up and follow his plan completely. I didn't do him any favors either by not speaking up.

Suggest you think about what you need and tell your instructor. Even if it's just going out and flying straight and level under the hood for 30 minutes.

To be fair, your instructor doesn't want to look like he's milking you for flight time so they try to keep you moving along. But sometimes you may need to just slow the process down.

I did not do this and i think this is partly why I never exercised my IFR rating after I got my ticket. I just never felt confident enough.
 
Yup. Haven't read all the responses but hopefully someone has pointed these things out.
Never let yourself be rushed into anything you are not ready to execute by anyone, including your instructor, but especially ATC.
The second thing is the phrase " delay vectors". Just say XXX approach, I need a few minutes to load that approach, would like delay vectors. They never turn you down for that and it's a sign of a good IFR pilot.

Now all this said, when I was training I'd run into situations where I wasn't ready and would tell the instructor that I was going to ask for delay vectors. He would say, ok, that's good, but you have 5 minutes, let's see if you can get ready. It was good practice, but now, if I need more time I ask for it. Especially if something changes.

You should easily be able to execute 3 approaches, talking to ATC with in an hour, unless you are getting jerked around.
 
Palmpilot said:
Amen. The 430W is certified for IFR navigation; the iPad isn't. That means that for both legal reasons and safety reasons, the 430W should be set up first.
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Except in my airplane I have a 650 and FS-510. So I can set it up on the iPad faster, then push it to the GPS. :D
 
Pinecone said:
Except in my airplane I have a 650 and FS-510. So I can set it up on the iPad faster, then push it to the GPS. :D
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I have a 650 and a FS-210 and the majority of the WTF just happened moments with the 650 have been trying to push changes from ForeFlight to the 650. The other way has rarely been a problem.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...When it does, you need strategies such as saying, "I need some delay vectors while I set things up," "can yo give me a vector to JUDUD while I set it up," or something similar to give you time...
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A recent trainee of mine liked to call these "panic vectors". As in everything I use when I teach, jokes included, I stole that too.
 
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Country Flier said:
Ok, a quick look at a few mountain approaches found this one...if you're on the GS, at 6000 feet, and the GS quits, wouldn't an immediate turn be dangerous, as opposed to a turn at the MAP? Not the best example, I know, but it was a 2 minute search LOL:

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2305/svg/00365IL16R.svg

And depending on your climb performance, a straight ahead climb could be bad too.
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Check this one out. If you start the turn too early, you could end up joining the OAK R-060 East of ALTAM. And there is no timing table.

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midlifeflyer said:
I know it's joking but they really should be thought of as normal.
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Couldn’t agree more. This was an Army helicopter pilot adding on an instrument rating to his ASEL rating. Somehow he saw asking for a delay vector or a vector to a fix not in his plan as admitting defeat. Finally got him to realize it’s just another tool and a useful one. But I did love his “panic vector” description.
 
This is one of those times where people relying on the iPad as the main source of navigation will cause problems. As a CFII, I don’t wanna see you touch that iPad until you get the GPS set, then look at the approach plate. Then if there is time you can put the plan into foreflight.
 
I finished up my IFR with PIC. He wanted to practice 20h of the same 3-4 approaches back to back slam dunk style. I said no way, its my plane, my dollar. We spent the week flying all over the country in all kinds of weather to all kinds of airports- controlled, uncontrolled, remote clearances, etc. Best learning experience of my life. Learned to fly IFR the way I planned on using it.

The practice approach thing is meant to get you used to drinking out of a fire hose- to prepare for the checkride and worst case scenario. But real life you usually will have time to fully brief and set up for the approach. But I do think this method is valuable once you have the basics down as it speeds up your briefing, checklist etc and gets you prepared for last minute ATC changes. If I had to teach IFR, I would do about 5-10 hr as I did it- traveling truly cross country to multiple airspaces. Once the habits were engrained then maybe speed up for multiple approaches in an hr lesson. But starting that way I think builds bad habits.
 
TommyG said:
This is one of those times where people relying on the iPad as the main source of navigation will cause problems. As a CFII, I don’t wanna see you touch that iPad until you get the GPS set, then look at the approach plate. Then if there is time you can put the plan into foreflight.
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I mostly agree. Sometimes looking at the plate first will help you find the correct IAF to load for the new approach. Other than looking at the plate, forget about the iPad.
 
LmannyR said:
Example 2:
We do 3 approaches back to back. With almost no time between the first and second to fully setup. Usually it’s with the same airport and it’s a different plate. So needs a full brief and if it goes from an RNAV to a ILS, where there a couple extra steps.

This one can be doable if again the entry gave ample time to setup. In reality, I would ask for a delay vectors to load up approach. When the instructor is “the controller” seems when I barely have enough time to setup. If we used the towered facilities nearby and getting FF for the approaches, it goes smooth since they sequence us in usually at the end of the line.

Instructor says we need to do 3 approaches within a 2 hour flight to prepare for the check ride.

Are these normal tactics to IFR training?
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Remember, training is an exercise. Not real world. If you can do back to back approaches, with ATC, your CFI and tower all yelling at you to do different things, and if you can maintain your cool and execute the perfect approach and landing (or missed), that's when you know you are ready. In contrast, real life flying is a lot more mundane. "Train like you fly" does have its place, especially in scenerio-based training, but "fly like you are on fire" is what I practice.
 
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Plano Pilot said:
I mostly agree. Sometimes looking at the plate first will help you find the correct IAF to load for the new approach. Other than looking at the plate, forget about the iPad.
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I suspect he was referring to Foreflight as moving map with routing, not in its function as paper chart replacement. There are many times we will want to look at a chart before entering information in avionics. Situational awareness is almost alway the prime directive.
 
midlifeflyer said:
There are probably a few airports where this would not be the case (do you have an example?), but I find it difficult to come up with a situation in which I would opt for a LOC when I have an RNAV approach available. Same dive and drive options for ice, no worries about checking frequencies or switching between GPS and VLOC, and with WAAS, a GP when the ILS GS is out.
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That was probably 8 years ago or so, when not all airports had GPS overlays...probably a bad example now..
 
Low Level Flyer said:
A recent trainee of mine liked to call these "panic vectors". As in everything I use when I teach, jokes included, I stole that too.
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No need for vectors…just depart Fargo airport southeastbound…you’ve got 35 miles to figure out how to go directly to PANIC. ;)
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My .02.... instrument flying can kill you easily if you get behind. In the soup, you have to be able to hand fly and work the radios and program the gps and call up the approach plate and deal with the unexpected from atc. Screwing up any one of those, or spending too long on one while ignoring the others, can be fatal. You have to be able to stay far ahead of the airplane.

Training should put you into situations that are far harder than what is realistic while you have an instructor to watch over you. That way when you're flying solo IRL, everything will feel like it's going in slow motion. The checkride will be the same thing; back to back approaches. They have to make sure you can stay ahead in challenging situations. If your instructor pushes you hard enough in training, the checkride will be a non-event.

After the checkride it's on YOU. Make sure you challenge yourself regularly to stay sharp.
 
I think the real issue is the failure of CFIIs to explain the goals and processes of the training environment and its differences from real life. It actually works both ways. We do learn to expedite approach briefings (leading to questions like the one starting this thread). OTOH the single required dual cross country typically barely touches the many things that happen in the departure, enroute, and approach segments of a real IFR flight.
 
bbarrett said:
I have a 650 and a FS-210 and the majority of the WTF just happened moments with the 650 have been trying to push changes from ForeFlight to the 650. The other way has rarely been a problem.
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Agreed, but it depends on what I am trying to change, whether is it easier and faster on the iPad or the 650. But that is what you have to learn about YOUR system.

And, one point in programming the GPS first, at least in mine, if I make a change on the GPS, it auto updates the iPad, but the other way takes a couple of pushes.

But it is just easier to type on the iPad on the yoke versus reaching over and up on the 650
 
IMHO -
1) Yes, things can get very busy. Learn like the back of your hand how to push the buttons on the GNS or GTN. If they say go direct to something, just hit Direct to, head in that direction, and then continue load what not
2) Situational awareness with the moving map on a tablet helps. Don’t play with it - just look.
3) Timing an ILS? Never heard of it, nor have any CFII's or DPE's ever mentioned it. If I loose the ILS, I'm going missed. With so much going on that needs attention, diverting your resources to add a timer to an ILS approach is bad cockpit resource management IMHO.
4) Your CFII seems to be the one behind the curve with things to be honest.
5) Learning something new requires learning and rehearsing it slowly until it becomes a developed memory. THEN you can enhance your performance by speeding it up.
 
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I'm inclined to offer: dump the ipad. Get sensi with the 650. The Air Carriers have a second pilot fot that, you're dividing your attention.....and work on stoing situational awareness in your head....
 
WDD said:
3) Timing an ILS? Never heard of it, nor have any CFII's or DPE's ever mentioned it. If I loose the ILS, I'm going missed. With so much going on that needs attention, diverting your resources to add a timer to an ILS approach is bad cockpit resource management IMHO.

5) Learning something new requires learning and rehearsing it slowly until it becomes a developed memory. THEN you can enhance your performance by speeding it up.
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These are contradictory positions, imo.
 
luvflyin said:
Check this one out. If you start the turn too early, you could end up joining the OAK R-060 East of ALTAM. And there is no timing table.

View attachment 118046
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I've noticed that can happen even if you don't start the missed until DH, because the initiation point of the turn depends on the climb gradient of the aircraft.
 
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