Questions for the Ronafide.

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Kansas Flyer said:
What really concerns me is that our choice on the matter may be taken away as we are seeing an assault on the principle of informed consent and even discrimination against people that are unwilling or in some cases unable to get the vaccine.
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Today informed consent & bioethics seem to be just talking points rather than policy.
 
I know a guy that is over 90 and smokes and drinks everyday, so smoking and drinking is clearly the secret to a long life, lol
 
NoBShere said:
I know a guy that is over 90 and smokes and drinks everyday, so smoking and drinking is clearly the secret to a long life, lol
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Yep ... there appears to be a way to prove or disprove almost anything ... :eek:
 
bnt83 said:
Anyone had a pet tested yet?

https://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/covid-19/pets.html
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Pet insurance is getting to be a big thing now. People are spending their futures on trying to cure cancer or whatever in dogs and cats. Not judging, just not something I would do... most likely, I don't own pets due to allergies in the family.

My daughter just accepted a job that offers pet insurance. She has yet to figure out if she has to pay for it or not, but even if she does I'm betting it's highly subsidized by the company.
 
Kansas Flyer said:
There simply hasn't been time for the normal development process and real long term testing to take place so we are concerned about potential long term issues
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Wondering what you consider long term? Just curious.

Cheers
 
RyanB said:
You’re kidding, right?
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come on, thoughts and prayers are all we need... Screw the scientific method and peer reviewed studies. What could a phd researcher know that I don't when it took them twice as long to get their degree.
 
so which studies should we give cred? Cleveland Clinc? or the ones from Texas? or just the ones the CDC espouses?
 
PaulS said:
My daughter just accepted a job that offers pet insurance. She has yet to figure out if she has to pay for it or not, but even if she does I'm betting it's highly subsidized by the company.
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It might be something some employers offer to sweeten the benefits package. Or not. My previous and current employers offer pet insurance as an option, but it was not subsidized in any way. The insurer just offered up a discounted 'employee' rate, in exchange for having the option put in front of every employee at Open Enrollment time.
 
NoBShere said:
I know a guy that is over 90 and smokes and drinks everyday, so smoking and drinking is clearly the secret to a long life, lol
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I had an uncle, WWII and Korea vet. He smoked, drank and was overweight. He died at 83 due to injuries he sustained in a car wreck 6 months earlier.
 
NoBShere said:
come on, thoughts and prayers are all we need... Screw the scientific method and peer reviewed studies. What could a phd researcher know that I don't when it took them twice as long to get their degree.
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Just checking… hard to know sometimes! ;)
 
X3 Skier said:
Wondering what you consider long term? Just curious.

Cheers
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That's a hard one for me to answer since I don't feel like there should be an arbitrary number to certify something as safe or not safe for use. In this case I understand why we didn't spend years testing before mass production but I would certainly be more comfortable with a longer track record before getting the stick. On the other hand we have or soon will have far more data much quicker than in the past with other vaccines due to the sheer number of people that have been vaccinated already. Also I'm sure there will be continued tweaking and improvement with additional data, testing, and research. Something along the lines of the old saying of "don't buy the A model of anything".

Not to take this too far into the weeds, but like I said before I'm actually more concerned with the increasing possibility that vaccination will become involuntarily and the implications that has on our rights and liberty.
 
Kansas Flyer said:
That's a hard one for me to answer since I don't feel like there should be an arbitrary number to certify something as safe or not safe for use. In this case I understand why we didn't spend years testing before mass production but I would certainly be more comfortable with a longer track record before getting the stick. On the other hand we have or soon will have far more data much quicker than in the past with other vaccines due to the sheer number of people that have been vaccinated already. Also I'm sure there will be continued tweaking and improvement with additional data, testing, and research. Something along the lines of the old saying of "don't buy the A model of anything".
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I understand where you are coming from. keep in mind that this is SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV-1 has been studied for over 15 years. Regardless, still quick vaccine development but, not as "new" as some would like you to think. Before I get attacked, they are different but with similarities. Way too much to get into on a pilot forum. Then there is the whole discussion on advancements in vaccine development in general that aided quick development.
 
NoBShere said:
a blend of kentucky bluegrass and northern california sensimillia. Oh crap, I said California, here come the torches and pitchforks...
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Not really I think California is really good at growing things or at least used to be. It’s just the other exports that I have a problem with.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
and yet.....none made it to the Mercy Ship or Samaritan's Purse camps.....what's up with that?
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My experience was north of the city 60 miles and in the second surge winter 2020. No tent hospitals and no mercy ship.
 
bnt83 said:
Government & Industry: Its safe, take it, we have given it millions and millions of people, proof it is safe

Individual: Compensate me for any negative outome

Government: No

(Also Government: You opioid manufacturers are responsible for multiple individual's drug seeking habits, you owe $26B in compensation!)
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It has been widely proven, including in a court of law that the Sacklers were hugely responsible for pushing opiates into the hands of doctors and paying those doctors to sell as many as they could, knowing that the same opiates were highly addictive and would result in long term and harmful effects for many people.

Daleandee said:
Good friend got the vaccine and then had a stroke. He's OK but this is another data point to consider ...
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Was this person an older individual who was more likely to get a stroke regardless? People do get strokes everyday. 795,000 per year in fact along with a total of 7 million having had them at one point in their life.

Kansas Flyer said:
There simply hasn't been time for the normal development process and real long term testing to take place so we are concerned about potential long term issues and additionally negative effects on pregnant or nursing mothers since we may wish to start a family in the near future.

What really concerns me is that our choice on the matter may be taken away as we are seeing an assault on the principle of informed consent and even discrimination against people that are unwilling or in some cases unable to get the vaccine.

Just to clarify when I say "unable" I mean their doctor recommended they avoid it due to a high likely hood that it would seriously harm or even kill them. Unfortunately vaccines that are safe for most are dangerous for some which isn't limited to this one.
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My best friend from college works the ER in a Virginia hospital and his wife is a RN that was pregnant and she got the vaccine as soon as it was offered. Baby was born without issues. If we are throwing out random data point.

Kansas Flyer said:
That's a hard one for me to answer since I don't feel like there should be an arbitrary number to certify something as safe or not safe for use. In this case I understand why we didn't spend years testing before mass production but I would certainly be more comfortable with a longer track record before getting the stick. On the other hand we have or soon will have far more data much quicker than in the past with other vaccines due to the sheer number of people that have been vaccinated already. Also I'm sure there will be continued tweaking and improvement with additional data, testing, and research. Something along the lines of the old saying of "don't buy the A model of anything".

Not to take this too far into the weeds, but like I said before I'm actually more concerned with the increasing possibility that vaccination will become involuntarily and the implications that has on our rights and liberty.
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Also, you do know that there are plenty of vaccines that are required, even in this country, and laws requiring them have been upheld. You have to vaccinate to go to school. You have to have vaccines to travel around the world, depending on the country (yellow fever).

JOhnH said:
Why would they have made the same expensive mistake twice?
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It wasn't exactly the second time for our area, as opposed to NYC. This was the first time that the hospitals were maxed out in the county.
 
RyanB said:
Was the stroke confirmed to have been caused by the vaccine? It seems as though you’re suggesting anecdotal evidence is a reason to avoid getting vaccinated. Far outliers such as this occurrence, are more or less just used as a confirmation bias for oneself.
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I was just at my kids pediatrician yesterday.

She (doctor) asked a parent "Are you going to get vaccinated?"
The answer was "The vaccine is not FDA approved, so I'll wait."
She asked "When the vaccine is fully FDA approved in October are you going to get it?"
The answer was "No, I don't really trust the FDA."

These excuses are just that - excuses.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Also, you do know that there are plenty of vaccines that are required, even in this country, and laws requiring them have been upheld. You have to vaccinate to go to school.
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I really shouldn't say anything, but as someone who worked as a teacher, I know that as of yet, the laws still allow parents to refuse to vaccinate their child for medical or religious reasons. And it just requires a waiver to send that same child without vaccines to school. I don't see why the covid shot should be any different. If you want to get it, get it and shut up. If you don't want to get it, don't and shut up. What you put in your body is your business and what I put in mine is mine. Same with choosing the level of risk a person is comfortable with. It should be a matter of personal choice and I don't think the government should be allowed to interfere with that liberty. Just as an aside, as a thought exercise, if the vaccine is effective, you should be fine coming into contact with those who are unvaccinated as you will only get mildly ill and if it's not effective, there's no reason to take it.
 
Daleandee said:
Good friend got the vaccine and then had a stroke. He's OK but this is another data point to consider ...
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What is there to consider? Outliers such as these are more or less just anecdotal and are used as a confirmation bias. It’s not a strong point to draw any conclusions from or make the suggestion that vaccines should be avoided.
 
RyanB said:
What is there to consider? Outliers such as these are more or less just anecdotal and are used as a confirmation bias. It’s not a strong point to draw any conclusions from or make the suggestion that vaccines should be avoided.
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Don't go get'n all sciency n' stuff. Herd immunity ended polio, oh wait, vaccinations ended polio. nevermind.
 
SkyChaser said:
I really shouldn't say anything, but as someone who worked as a teacher, I know that as of yet, the laws still allow parents to refuse to vaccinate their child for medical or religious reasons. And it just requires a waiver to send that same child without vaccines to school. I don't see why the covid shot should be any different. If you want to get it, get it and shut up. If you don't want to get it, don't and shut up. What you put in your body is your business and what I put in mine is mine. Same with choosing the level of risk a person is comfortable with. It should be a matter of personal choice and I don't think the government should be allowed to interfere with that liberty. Just as an aside, as a thought exercise, if the vaccine is effective, you should be fine coming into contact with those who are unvaccinated as you will only get mildly ill and if it's not effective, there's no reason to take it.
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ok, with this type of logic you have convinced me, survival of the fittest! Screw those that can't get vaccinated (i.e. children and those with autoimmune disorders), those ingrateful sponges.
 
If the vaccine killed the virus or provided enough immunity it might have a chance at effectivity. But neither of those are so.
 
RyanB said:
Outliers such as these are more or less just anecdotal and are used as a confirmation bias.
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Yep, I agree all this government data about the adverse side effects from the C19 vaccines are purely anecdotal. What's odd is this data only represents approximately 1% to 10% of what is not being reported. I remember when Vioxx was introduced. All the side effects were purely "anecdotal"... until they weren't. :cool:
 
SkyChaser said:
It should be a matter of personal choice and I don't think the government should be allowed to interfere with that liberty.
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I agree, I’m all for personal choice, but it seems as though a lot of people have forgotten that immunization records have been a thing for decades and your admission to most, if not every school, is dependent on your ability to provide proof of vaccination against several of the ‘old school’ viruses and diseases. It’s not a new thing, so I really don’t understand the polarization amongst everyone.
 
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NoBShere said:
ok, with this type of logic you have convinced me, survival of the fittest! Screw those that can't get vaccinated (i.e. children and those with autoimmune disorders), those ingrateful sponges.
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Can you explain how this is survival of the fittest, please? Children can't get vaccinated, sure, but they also have incredibly low death rates, as well as few long-lasting effects. Those with auto-immune disorders can't be exposed to any type of illness, whether covid or not. I knew a girl who gave piano lessons who had an autoimmune disorder and she had to request anyone with just a cold to stay home as it could quite literally kill her to contract that. Me getting a covid vaccine wouldn't help her, either, as I could still get the flu or a cold with the same effect for her. I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not seeing how that equates to survival of the fittest?

RyanB said:
I agree, I’m all for personal choice, but it seems as though a lot of people have forgotten that immunization records have been a thing for decades and your admission to most, if not every school, is dependent on your ability to provide proof of vaccination against several of the ‘old school’ viruses and diseases. It’s not a new thing, so I really don’t understand the polarization amongst everyone.
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My thing is that most if not all of those schools allow a student to either provide proof of vaccination or a religious or medical exemption. I have yet to come across a school that refused a religious or medical exemption for even the "old school" vaccines. And I don't see why the covid vaccine shouldn't be considered same as the other vaccines - as a choice.
 
azblackbird said:
What's odd is this data only represents approximately 1% to 10% of what is not being reported.
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And you know there’s 90% more data that’s not being reported? Sounds like more anecdotal speculation. Seems like nowadays the non-scientific community knows more than the microbiologists, immunologists and other professionally educated individuals.
SkyChaser said:
My thing is that most if not all of those schools allow a student to either provide proof of vaccination or a religious or medical exemption. I have yet to come across a school that refused a religious or medical exemption for even the "old school" vaccines. And I don't see why the covid vaccine shouldn't be considered same as the other vaccines - as a choice.
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From what I understand, that will still be the case for the COVID vaccinations.
 
SkyChaser said:
I really shouldn't say anything, but as someone who worked as a teacher, I know that as of yet, the laws still allow parents to refuse to vaccinate their child for medical or religious reasons. And it just requires a waiver to send that same child without vaccines to school. I don't see why the covid shot should be any different. If you want to get it, get it and shut up. If you don't want to get it, don't and shut up. What you put in your body is your business and what I put in mine is mine. Same with choosing the level of risk a person is comfortable with. It should be a matter of personal choice and I don't think the government should be allowed to interfere with that liberty. Just as an aside, as a thought exercise, if the vaccine is effective, you should be fine coming into contact with those who are unvaccinated as you will only get mildly ill and if it's not effective, there's no reason to take it.
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New York does not have any exemptions for childhood vaccines other than defined medical exemptions. Religious or personal viewpoints are not acceptable anymore.

Ok, so you also agree that a private business (bookstore, restaurant, gym), including doctors and hospitals, insurance companies, and the like can refuse service to anyone they choose as long as it is not discriminatory (race, sex, age, disability, origin, religion?

Would you exempt yourself from care at a hospital or monetary insurance coverage if you catch COVID and require serious treatment? If not, you are placing an extra burden on the rest of us based on a personal viewpoint, just like Cirrus drivers that pull the chute and total a million dollar airframe raise the insurance rates for everyone else.

Checkout_my_Six said:
If the vaccine killed the virus or provided enough immunity it might have a chance at effectivity. But neither of those are so.
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It had a chance before the virus mutated so much because of several hundred million cases. Current vaccines are strong enough to keep the virus transmission low enough to allow for the next generation of vaccine to be able to be developed - if everyone was actually vaccinated - which we have enough doses for - and which a large portion of the population is refusing to take.

SkyChaser said:
My thing is that most if not all of those schools allow a student to either provide proof of vaccination or a religious or medical exemption. I have yet to come across a school that refused a religious or medical exemption for even the "old school" vaccines. And I don't see why the covid vaccine shouldn't be considered same as the other vaccines - as a choice.
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New York does not have any exemptions for childhood vaccines other than defined medical exemptions. Religious or personal viewpoints are not acceptable anymore. And valid medical exemptions are being checked so they can no longer come from just a handful of anti-vax doctors making things up for parents.
 
RyanB said:
What is there to consider? Outliers such as these are more or less just anecdotal and are used as a confirmation bias. It’s not a strong point to draw any conclusions from or make the suggestion that vaccines should be avoided.
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Could be or maybe not. This is not the first person to report issues with vaccines.

FWIW ... I'm not against vaccines at all but I am against anyone trying to tell others what they should do. My family is aware and has used vaccines but it's not something to advertise and demand that others should do. People should make their choices on facts but the facts are difficult to come by as truth is in very short supply these days ...
 
VAERS data comes with this disclaimer. It is a lot like the NASA reports. I can submit a NASA report that I hit a flock of flamingos after taking off from Greenland in my ultralight. Or I could submit that I jumped out of my airplane and managed to fall back into the cockpit on the way down, but ATC got mad at me for not reporting my change in altitude! I could also submit 1000 reports to VAERS that I got athlete's foot from the COVID vaccine.

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified (*underline is from the original site) reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov.

While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

  • Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
  • Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
  • The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
  • VAERS data are limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
  • VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I was just at my kids pediatrician yesterday.

She (doctor) asked a parent "Are you going to get vaccinated?"
The answer was "The vaccine is not FDA approved, so I'll wait."
She asked "When the vaccine is fully FDA approved in October are you going to get it?"
The answer was "No, I don't really trust the FDA."

These excuses are just that - excuses.
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I am very pro-vaccine, and I don't think highly of anti-vaxers, but your story sounds so made up to me.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
If it worked I’d be all for it. The vaccine will not keep you from getting COVID or prevent the spread of the virus.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

https://www.vaccinedeaths.com/2021-08-13-most-patients-in-serious-condition-fully-vaccinated.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/del...ective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

https://www.covid-datascience.com/p...strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated
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As Joey would say ... "Come on man! Here's the deal!" Why you wanna go and confuse the issue with facts? Who in their right mind mind would believe anything from CNBC? Oh wait ... :dunno:
 
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