Questions about Aerobatics

joeparrilla

joeparrilla

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JoeP
Hi Guys,

Although I only just started my PPL training, I wanted to get some more info on Aerobatics as it is definitely a goal of mine after finishing PPL. Is this a difficult thing to get into as far as costs and availability of training? Do regulations make it difficult to get into aerobatic flying in any way? I am not really aware of how easy it is to find a school or a CFI who can train you in aerobatics. So what advice would you give me once I finish my PPL (hopefully in 6 months to year from now)? Is this a viable option for fun in aviation for a middle class guy? Are there any threats to it in the near future involving cost, regulation, etc? Thanks in advance!
 
After you get your PPL go out and find a school that teaches it. They'll comply with all the necessary requirements such as providing an aircraft certified for aerobatics and supplying you with a parachute. Generally that have an aerobatic box near the field that is NOTAMd.

I'd suggest signing up for a 30 min intro flight to see how it goes. If you like it you can continue with one of their programs. These can run hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars depending on how advanced you want to go.

You might have to travel quite a distance to get to one depending on where you live. CA, FL, and TX all have multiple schools so if you live in the city in those States I'm sure you can find something.
 
Acro is expensive insofar as training is concerned, and it can only be flown in specific areas if you want competition level training (you need a marked box to impart the size of the box). It is harder to find rentals and instructors.

The actual flying is very demanding of precision and requires the development of an acute sense of what the airplane is telling you though vibrations, noise and 'feel' .

Most people can develop a G tolerance as well as general aerobatic tolerance, but start slow, and be prepared to call off any lesson as soon as you feel queasy, it will not typically get better by 'pressing through' and you do not want to clean the airplane up if you push it too far because your ego would not let you admit it was time to stop.

It is the most rewarding type of flying I have done to date, but it is also easily the most expensive and I was getting a smoking deal on an Extra 300L and instructor. It is also addictive, be forewarned.

'Gimp
 
I recommend you try to find someone who can train you in some unusual attitude maneuvers even before you finish your PPL. There are CFIs who specialize in it and usually use a super decathlon for the trainig. I had thought I might do that in my 8KCAB but never really followed through. I'm so far away from most folks that the cost of the insurance vs. the umber of people really interested in that kind of training was counter productive for me.

I went to Idaho and flew with Rich Stowell some. A very good choice of places to go and he's a great guy and CFI. Also, Jeanne Macpherson is in Montana. And like mcfly said there are places in the major areas.
If you tell us where you live we can point you in the right direction.
 
Jeanie said:
I recommend you try to find someone who can train you in some unusual attitude maneuvers even before you finish your PPL. There are CFIs who specialize in it and usually use a super decathlon for the trainig. I had thought I might do that in my 8KCAB but never really followed through. I'm so far away from most folks that the cost of the insurance vs. the umber of people really interested in that kind of training was counter productive for me.

I went to Idaho and flew with Rich Stowell some. A very good choice of places to go and he's a great guy and CFI. Also, Jeanne Macpherson is in Montana. And like mcfly said there are places in the major areas.
If you tell us where you live we can point you in the right direction.
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Thanks for the info. I live in Brooklyn NY and fly out of KISP (Islip, Long Island)
 
The IAC competition list is actually pretty busy. It is nice to know that there is an active community around this sort of thing. You really dont hear much about it where I am... I guess I just talk to the wrong people :)
 
Find a local contest or one that is not too far away hopefully, and go to watch, better yet, volunteer to help (probably as recorder for judges) - you will learn a ton, meet great people, and have a great time.

Each chapter is a little different but IAC is a solid organization.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Find a local contest or one that is not too far away hopefully, and go to watch, better yet, volunteer to help (probably as recorder for judges) - you will learn a ton, meet great people, and have a great time.

Each chapter is a little different but IAC is a solid organization.

'Gimp
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Great idea. Closest ones coming up are in NC and NH. Not too bad. I could make it a mini vacation.
 
joeparrilla said:
Great idea. Closest ones coming up are in NC and NH. Not too bad. I could make it a mini vacation.
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If you do go, try to plan to stay for the awards banquet on the final day of competition. I regret never doing this because it is a great exposure to the folks in a more casual environment - great for networking and making friends.

'Gimp
 
joeparrilla said:
Is this a difficult thing to get into as far as costs and availability of training?
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Not difficult at all. Just need to be willing to invest a bit of time and money. How much depends on your level of involvement. Do you have plans to buy an airplane after getting your license? Have you done any aerobatics at all yet? Do you know if you'll actually like it enough to pursue it? Only one way to find out.

joeparrilla said:
Do regulations make it difficult to get into aerobatic flying in any way?
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No, there are no regulations at all regarding who can perform aerobatics and who can teach aerobatics. There are only regulations regarding where aerobatic flight can be conducted and when parachutes must be worn. Easily found in the FARs.

joeparrilla said:
So what advice would you give me once I finish my PPL (hopefully in 6 months to year from now)?
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You don't even need to wait until your PPL is done. Some think of PPL training as a race to the checkride, but taking one weekend and doing some aerobatic training is not going to distract you from your PPL training. During primary training is as good a time as any to start learning acro. The WWII guys did it during Primary training in the Stearman. There are no prerequisites - not even a PPL. Aerobatics is its own thing, and having the PPL will put you in no better position to learn acro than where you are now. If it were me, I'd take an introductory flight just to see what it's like, and if it's something I'd want to pursue later. Some like the idea of aerobatics, but not so much the realities of it. Others become life-long acro nuts.

And this is important - don't let a possibly bad initial aerobatic experience lead you to think that acro is not for you. Many get sick at first. You build tolerance. Some find it very uncomfortable at first. You build tolerance. Some are fearful at first. Your comfort level will increase. Some can't find their ass in the airplane at first. You'll get better. One step at a time. Just let yourself end up where the natural progression takes you. Don't try to think too far ahead, because each step along the way will give you a different perspective which shapes where you end up. You can't know anything about that at this point. Above all, just make sure it's enjoyable. Have fun.
 
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whifferdill said:
Not difficult at all. Just need to be willing to invest a bit of time and money. How much depends on your level of involvement. Do you have plans to buy an airplane after getting your license? Have you done any aerobatics at all yet? Do you know if you'll actually like it enough to pursue it? Only one way to find out.



No, there are no regulations at all regarding who can perform aerobatics and who can teach aerobatics. There are only regulations regarding where aerobatic flight can be conducted and when parachutes must be worn. Easily found in the FARs.



You don't even need to wait until your PPL is done. Some think of PPL training as a race to the checkride, but taking one weekend and doing some aerobatic training is not going to distract you from your PPL training. During primary training is as good a time as any to start learning acro. The WWII guys did it during Primary training in the Stearman. There are no prerequisites - not even a PPL. Aerobatics is its own thing, and having the PPL will put you in no better position to learn acro than where you are now. If it were me, I'd take an introductory flight just to see what it's like, and if it's something I'd want to pursue later. Some like the idea of aerobatics, but not so much the realities of it. Others become life-long acro nuts.

And this is important - don't let a possibly bad initial aerobatic experience lead you to think that acro is not for you. Many get sick at first. You build tolerance. Some find it very uncomfortable at first. You build tolerance. Some are fearful at first. Your comfort level will increase. Some can't find their ass in the airplane at first. You'll get better. One step at a time. Just let yourself end up where the natural progression takes you. Don't try to think too far ahead, because each step along the way will give you a different perspective which shapes where you end up. You can't know anything about that at this point. Above all, just make sure it's enjoyable. Have fun.
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Buying an airplane is most likely not in my budget at this time. I plan to join a club and I think that is the most viable option for me right now (I wouldnt just do per flight rentals).

Its great to hear that there are no other restrictions. I tend to think of all forms of non commercial aviation as something that the FAA just slams on with rules in an attempt to keep people safe.

Trying it out is a great idea. Maybe once I have a few more flights under my belt I will look into it (I have only had one PPL flight so far :wink2:, I know I am getting ahead of myself.)
 
joeparrilla said:
(I have only had one PPL flight so far :wink2:, I know I am getting ahead of myself.)
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Congrats, you're beginning a fun journey. But maybe wait at least until you've soloed for that first acro lesson. :)
 
I had 30 hrs as a student the first time I took any acro lessons. It was after the third lesson that I told my husband someday I'm going to get a plane just like this. And then years later I did.

It's good for students to get some unusual attitude/acro time!
 
Well Acrogimp made this sound really expensive. Flying acro can be just as cheap as renting any other cheap airplane. Gimp rented a Extra 300 for his training which is the most expensive acro plane there is to fly..... Not everyone wants to fly competition aerobatics, some just like basic gentlemens acro.
You can go rent a Cessna 150 aerobat or a Citabria and have a blast and they are cheaper than renting your basic old 172. These airplanes will do loops, spins, rolls etc. They will do all you want starting out.
I have a different outlook than most. All my buddies fly competition acro but I do not want to. Not my thing.... They always pressure me but I never sign up. I only did one contest back in my old Decathlon. I have owned a Decathlon, Skybolt, Pitts S-2C and now a 540 Christen Eagle. I go out and fly for fun. My friends just practice, practice, practice trying to make every maneuver perfect. I get in my airplane with a buddy, my son or sometimes solo and just go fly and have a blast. Yes I do acro and love it but I am not practicing to make everything perfect. Heck my buddies don't know the difference between my sloppy loop and roll vs. a perfect one. We are just playing and having the time of our lives. If all I did was practice instead of just have fun I probably would have hung it up a long time ago.
Well anyway. The point of my story is that it is not anymore expensive to go play with acro than just go fly a regular airplane. You can make this as expensive as you want...
Gimp flies a P-51 as his daily flyer, thats why he says its very expensive. HA! HA!
 
I guess I will play devil's advocate here. Flight training is what it is largely because of cost. I learned to fly in the USAF, but thank heavens not regular UPT, I would have failed. I learned in a T-28A and aerobatics was started immediately after solo. Flying aerobatics is sort of fun, more for some people than others. But in my mind, the important thing is that you learn a lot about flying and become a more proficient pilot. Yes, yes, yes, I know that when spins were required there were fatals from the spin training. But loss of control is a big accident cause nowadays and I am amazed at the lack of proficiency in basic things like slips and airspeed control. On another thread there is a discussion of a "CFI" who teaches way fast finals because of discomfort with slow flight. Aerobatics might help that CFI understand stalls better as an example. At near zero airspeed in a hammerhead there is no stall. At very low airspeed at the top of a loop there is no stall. Tell me again why you have to be at VsX1.5 on short final?

So my thing is if you enjoy it or not, if you fly, you should learn to fly the edges of the envelope, not just the middle. I personally enjoy flying aerobatics primarily because it improves my skill set. But to be honest, I get just as much pleasure out of a really good approach and landing as I do a loop. I may enjoy a long cross country low and slow in an open cockpit biplane as much as an aerobatic session, maybe more.

Over time, a pilot's skills vary based on how much flying and training you do. Right now I consider myself seriously average. I have been maybe a little better in the past, 100 hours a month does good things for your proficiency. But you never lose the knowledge gained from the things you do in an airplane, the immediacy of the skills, yes, but knowledge and the ability to regain the skills, no.

So to the OP, from a crotchety old pilot, focus on your PPL until you solo, then at least consider an unusual attitudes course or an intro to aero course, or whatever you can afford. What you learn won't be wasted.

Ernie
 
It depends where you live, some places have more availability than others. If you have local availability to a place with a Citabria, no reason to wait until after you have your PP, might as well get in some spins, rolls, hammerheads and loops now. It will only help your flying regardless how little you have. There are no regulatory difficulties with aerobatics.
 
pigpenracing said:
I go out and fly for fun. My friends just practice, practice, practice trying to make every maneuver perfect. I get in my airplane with a buddy, my son or sometimes solo and just go fly and have a blast. Yes I do acro and love it but I am not practicing to make everything perfect. ...We are just playing and having the time of our lives. If all I did was practice instead of just have fun I probably would have hung it up a long time ago.
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Well, folks think of "fun" in different ways. For some, aerobatics is not "fun" or "thrilling", but simply satisfying. For these folks, simply watching the horizon flip around doesn't do much for them. I'd say that about myself. The satisfaction in aerobatics (for many) becomes the challenge of figuring out why the airplane isn't doing exactly what you want, then figuring out how to adjust, and then doing it. You don't need to be into competition to be that type. When you first start acro with an instructor, it often seems "thrilling", but for many, the "thrill" evaporates quickly. There's no adrenaline rush. The challenge is what keeps many going. I get no adrenaline, and never scream yeeha inside the airplane, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. Everyone gets something different out of flying, and everyone does it for different reasons. And guess what, competitions ARE fun for those who continue to go. :) If it weren't for the challenge of acro, I would have hung it up a long time ago.
 
In fairness, I was paying $260/hr/wet with instructor for my Extra time - as I said, a smoking deal.

Here in San Diego, there are no aerobatic planes for rent, anywhere. You can rent Decathlon's and Citabria's for $120-150, plus instructor, but acro is prohibited - can't even solo the Decathlon as I recall. This in a city with 2 million people, a strong aviation heritage, and 300+ flying days per year

Drive up to Orange County and the schools there get over $200/hr for Super D's and $400 for Pitts S-2B's and Extra 300's - all before instructor.

Of course, primary students here are paying $100/hr just for a 172, so I suppose it is my age that determines what I think is expensive - I learned in 150/152's in KS in the late 80's and was paying $38/hr for the plane and $20 for the instructor.

It is certainly true that you do not need to, and some would argue 'should not' start in a plane like the Extra, but I was paying Decathlon money but getting the challenge and performance of a 300hp unlimited competition monoplane - you pays your money and you gets what you want.

I wish I flew Mustang's daily, I'm just a gimp with an aviation addiction.... ;^)

'Gimp
 
Chip had an Extra 300, he said it was a great primary trainer, no matter what a student did, he wasn't going to break the plane. :D
 
It is more than possible to break an Extra- starting out, the sight picture from the front is not as good as from the back, or at least a lot different.

How many of these students flew the Extra from the back, where all of the radios, engine controls, etc. are located? Probably not many. How many of these schools let the student sit in the back during acro lessons?

It also drops like a rock and lands fast, like around 90K on final, again with not so great forward visibility on final.

It is very solid, and with the high wing loading and small surface area it tracks better than a high wing tail dragger, but they can be broken. Probably the biggest risk is dropping it in from a height- saw one that broke the carbon fiber gear legs and tore up prop, all during a check out. Took nearly a year to fix. Scared the new owner so much I think he never flew it again.

It is of course extremely responsive- the stall is docile, and holding altitude during steep turns only takes a very light touch.

However, the use as a primary trainer- not so much. How many schools will let a renter even take an Extra out solo? That should be the real question.
 
IMO, the Extra is not a good primary acro training only because the roll is such a fundamental building block maneuver, and the Extra just will not reinforce basic rudder skills like a Decathlon will. Or rather, the airplane won't slap the student in the face if their stick and rudder technique is lacking, while rolling the airplane. I would recommend to anyone to start in something like a Super D and work your way up to the higher performing airplanes.
 
whifferdill said:
IMO, the Extra is not a good primary acro training only because the roll is such a fundamental building block maneuver, and the Extra just will not reinforce basic rudder skills like a Decathlon will. Or rather, the airplane won't slap the student in the face if their stick and rudder technique is lacking, while rolling the airplane. I would recommend to anyone to start in something like a Super D and work your way up to the higher performing airplanes.
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What do you think about the Avion 2160 Robyn as a primary aerobatic trainer?
 
whifferdill said:
IMO, the Extra is not a good primary acro training only because the roll is such a fundamental building block maneuver, and the Extra just will not reinforce basic rudder skills like a Decathlon will. Or rather, the airplane won't slap the student in the face if their stick and rudder technique is lacking, while rolling the airplane. I would recommend to anyone to start in something like a Super D and work your way up to the higher performing airplanes.
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I can vouch for this, the Extra will roll quite well almost feet on the floor - first roll I did in the Christen Eagle was ugly but only took a second to get better using my feet correctly (more throw required compared to Extra), after that, I concentrated on super slow rolls in the Extra and now have no problem to describe the 'sacred circle' in anything.

Similar experience looping a Yak-52, the feel of G-onset and ability to accurately set and maintain the pull-up resulted in very slow-across-the-top loops in the Yak compared to the Extra.

The Extra basically does everything effortlessly, and you can't break them in flight, but it will only do things well IF the pilot tells it to do things well - that is true for every plane.

FWIW, the Extra 300L was my first real acro experience, and my first TW experience, I had about 350 TT, in 30 different make/models when I first flew it. I could handle it TO, approach and landing after 2 flights - and I'm an amputee with no ankle action on my right leg. It was a bit sketchy/squirelly for the first couple hours but the crosswinds in Mojave teach you quick, instructor never took it away from me in 15 hrs (gusts to 25+).

If I could afford one I'd own one in a heartbeat, it is an outstanding airplane - but they are simply well outside the realm of what an average guy can manage financially, at least if you have a wife and daughter who are accustomed to a certain standard of living...

'Gimp
 
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Henning said:
What do you think about the Avion 2160 Robyn as a primary aerobatic trainer?
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Never flown one, but did see one fly at one of our contests. Definitely rolls slow enough to require very active control inputs to roll well. I'd imagine it would be a good trainer.

AcroGimp said:
If I could afford one I'd own [Extra 300L] one in a heartbeat, it is an outstanding airplane - but they are simply well outside the realm of what an average guy can manage financially, at least if you have a wife and daughter who are accustomed to a certain standard of living...
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Nah...if we're dreaming and you want 2 seats, go for the new 330LX...the L is the doggiest handling model Extra made. :) If you only need one seat, an older 300S is one helluvan airplane, and much more "affordable". Lighter, rolls better, performs better, flies much better than the L...which folks joke stands for "luxury". :D
 
whifferdill said:
Nah...if we're dreaming and you want 2 seats, go for the new 330LX...the L is the doggiest handling model Extra made. :) If you only need one seat, an older 300S is one helluvan airplane, and much more "affordable". Lighter, rolls better, performs better, flies much better than the L...which folks joke stands for "luxury". :D
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Oh I know what people say, but I found the L to be a nice mix of capability as well as the 2nd seat - easy ingress/egress, good visibility (relativey speaking) - just a good all around plane and at least approachable on the used market in the real world.

If money were no object I would need to try the MX2 and the SBACH 342 or get Zivko to drop the UAV business and build me a 2-seat Edge 540.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Oh I know what people say, but I found the L to be a nice mix of capability as well as the 2nd seat - easy ingress/egress, good visibility (relativey speaking) - just a good all around plane and at least approachable on the used market in the real world.
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Yep, just messin'. :) If money were no object for me, I'd have Steve Wolf build another Wolf Pitts Pro.
 
Yes, it's heavy- the leather seats, autopilot, garmin panel all add weight. A new 330 would be nice, but they're going for around 450k out the door, and have less range than a 300. Very difficult to get a loan or insurance as well. A good used 300 can be had for around 250k and it'll still outperform a Pitts or Eagle and will be a lot more comfortable.
 
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