Question: Pilots who are also A&Ps

Dan Thomas said:
Some STC's cost money. A lot more than just the components themselves. An E-AB doesn't need to use the STC.
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Don't cha have to answer the question in the context it was asked anymore?
My statement was that many after market parts are cheaper than the OEM standard and can be used on certified aircraft.
You'd buy the same part for both certifications there is no price advantage one over the other.
 
Hat Man said:
@Raymo

Lol, now there’s a thought.

To go even cheaper and slower, I also had this idea of finding a super cub project, buying it sans engine and prop, and making it into an experimental by slapping a new aerovee in with the option to turbo it later on. I even priced it out, found a super cub, lots of nice mods, with a high time engine being the only real thing wrong with it. Said he’d sell for 22,000 no engine and prop, so it’d probably be a little over 30,000 to get it and put an aerovee in.

I dunno how well that’d work given that you’d need to use a smaller prop with that engine, but I don’t think it’d cause too many problems given that it’s a tandem. That particular airframe will probably be long gone by the time I’m ready to get a plane though.
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There is a way to do this, you are allowed to construct E/AB aircraft from aircraft parts. several aircraft use whole wings from certified aircraft.
Before I'd start this, I'd talk to your local FSDO/Manufacturing section.
 
@Juliet Hotel

The seller had it listed as an experimental because it had a lot of modifications made.
 
@Tom-D

I wouldn’t try something like that without help. The company behind the aerovee offers services for assisting in unusual engine conversions. I have yet to find anybody who has attempted putting one in a cub, so it’d be an unknown.
 
Hat Man said:
@Juliet Hotel

The seller had it listed as an experimental because it had a lot of modifications made.
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You'd want to know which type of experimental it was then. If it started out life as a certified Supercub then it cannot be experimental amateur built because it wasn't amateur built. It might be experimental-exhibition or it could be experimental-R&D or market survey. If its anything other than experimental amateur built, its likely going to have restrictions on where and how it can be flown.
 
@Hat Man

Converting a GA certified aircraft to EAB is not really an option, unfortunately. It can be done temporarily in the experimental, exhibition category but will have severe limitations on where you can fly (similar to EAB Phase 1 flight) and does not allow passengers.

Though I got my A&P in the mid-90s with military experience (Blackhawk mech/crewchief), I left the field for nearly 15 years while pursuing a career in the IT world. Got back in around 2013 and started working on my PPL. That resulted in meeting a bunch of great guys at the airport and a return to weekend mechanic/avionics work.
 
I'd wager that the FAA would allow you to certify it as a E/AB if you bought a Super Cub, rebuilt it with a whole lot of new parts starting with a new fuselage, rebuilt wings.
of course you are going to dump the data tag and paper work for the cub.

If you want to sell that data I know some one who pays good money for the data tag and paper work for certain supercuts.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Some STC's cost money. A lot more than just the components themselves. An E-AB doesn't need to use the STC.
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Tom, show me any 60 amp stc'ed alternator that costs less than the $100 one I use from autozone. Or the $49 dollar starter from autozone. Let's mention the 1000 plus difference in price between a certified G5 and an experimental. How about the difference in an experimental lycoming and a certified one. What does cessnapiperbeech want for a new elevator skin vs the 100 bucks or so van gets for one?
 
Tom-D said:
I'd wager that the FAA would allow you to certify it as a E/AB if you bought a Super Cub, rebuilt it with a whole lot of new parts starting with a new fuselage, rebuilt wings.
of course you are going to dump the data tag and paper work for the cub.

If you want to sell that data I know some one who pays good money for the data tag and paper work for certain supercuts.
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I bet the wouldn't if you did not have the documentation to show you built it, not just assembled parts.
 
unsafervguy said:
Tom, show me any 60 amp stc'ed alternator that costs less than the $100 one I use from autozone. Or the $49 dollar starter from autozone. Let's mention the 1000 plus difference in price between a certified G5 and an experimental. How about the difference in an experimental lycoming and a certified one. What does cessnapiperbeech want for a new elevator skin vs the 100 bucks or so van gets for one?
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Tom is convinced that he's right. Doesn't seem like he's all that interested in letting any facts or figures mess too much with that.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You can't just convert a certified airplane into an experimental.
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You certainly can. In this case probably to 'experimental R&D'. But that is a time limited thing and it would return to standard once it is returned to standard configuration and has been inspected as such. I fly a Bonanza that at several occasions has been a R&D aircraft.
 
Tom's convinced, in real life there isn't much difference in cost of operation of a E/AB and certified.
You crunch either you turn it in to your insurance, The deductible will be the same.
Many E/AB guys don't do there own maintenance, shop rate at the FBO is the same either way.
There is always the owner, that will say I get my stuff for free, but not many do.
 
Tom-D said:
Many E/AB guys don't do there own maintenance, shop rate at the FBO is the same either way.
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So the reason you feel that EAB cost the same as certified to maintain is because you know of EAB owners who choose to pay retail for their maintenance. I get that and it makes sense. I still disagree that its correct to just assume that someone on a forum asking for advise will make the same maintenance choices as other people you know but I do now understand where you're coming from I think.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
So the reason you feel that EAB cost the same as certified to maintain is because you know of EAB owners who choose to pay retail for their maintenance. I get that and it makes sense. I still disagree that its correct to just assume that someone on a forum asking for advise will make the same maintenance choices as other people you know but I do now understand where you're coming from I think.
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Well think about it, from the day you start flying either, your operation costs are not going to change that much in either type, gas, oil, tires, hangar rate, and Dailey up keep won't be that much different.
 
Tom-D said:
Well think about it, from the day you start flying either, your operation costs are not going to change that much in either type, gas, oil, tires, hangar rate, and Dailey up keep won't be that much different.
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Hangar rate is a fixed cost. Of course the fixed costs are going to be the same. But as has been pointed out, even when considering the aftermarket STC'd parts available, you still cannot touch the cost of being able to buy things like starters and alternators from NAPA. You still cannot touch the cost of being able to rebuild something like an elevator or a wing. Yep, you can probably search the junk yards for used wings or elevators. But I suspect you'd still pay more for them and you'd end up with a used part.

Absolutely there are people out there who just take their EAB to the local A&P and let him use the same certified parts he uses on everything else. And yep, for those individuals, their cost of ownership is going to be about the same as owning a certified. But that doesn't mean cost of ownership is going to be the same for as certified for every EAB owner and to suggest it does is crazy.
 
Here's the bigger point that actually speaks directly to the topic of the thread. One of the aviation based vlogs I follow on youtube is a guy that fly his plane all over the country. About half a dozen times in the last year or so he's had an issue with his glass panel going dark on him in flight. Every time that's happened he's taken it to an A&P who looked at it diagnosed it as something in the electrical system, changed a part or made and adjustment and off he goes. Then two weeks later the problem still exists and the plane goes back to an A&P who tries something else. He's changed some parts in trying to track this problem down and their cost probably wasn't too terrible. But he's also paid the A&P every single time its been worked on for this problem.

Now to be fair, he travels a lot which means this issue has been looked at by different mechanics every time. But even if he stayed close to home by law he would have to employ the services of an A&P to troubleshoot the problem. The option for him to just pull the cowling and start changing out parts isn't there for him unless he's an A&P himself or knows one who is willing to supervise and sign off on his work.

That more than anything else is what keeps me from buying a certified plane. I've been away from professional flying and aircraft ownership for almost 20 years. And all the A&P's I personally know who would be willing to oversee me working on my own plane live 800 miles away. I know almost no one in the aviation community where I live now and I would not feel comfortable making the commitment to buy a certified airplane on the off chance that I might be able to get to know a local A&P well enough to have him peek at and sign off on any work I did myself. And if I didn't find that would let me do my own work it would absolutely pain me to have to pay someone shop rate to troubleshoot and fix things I am perfectly capable of fixing myself. If I buy or build an EAB, that issue goes away. I have no desire to get an A&P myself which leaves me with building a kit. So that's the plan right now.
 
Too many variables regarding cert. vs exp. to argue that it's flat out black and white (one cheaper than the other).
 
Skyrys62 said:
Too many variables regarding cert. vs exp. to argue that it's flat out black and white (one cheaper than the other).
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Yep. Costs of ownership and operation are all over the board, oftentimes even within the same type of airplane. The only thing absolute we can say about this is that it costs whatever it costs.

That said, my observations have been similar to Tom’s. The cost delta between experimental and TCd airplanes is often smaller than what the experimental supporters love to claim.
 
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