Question about a clearance

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Flying KTOA to KWJF

The first waypoint on my filed plan was LAX VOR I received this clearance:

C - Cleared to KWJF
R - Fly RH, RV to 170r LAX, LIMBO, D-> LAX, then as filed
A - 3000/7000 in five
F - 134.7
T - 1234

Okay so I departed Torrance from runway 29 and was flying Runway Heading expecting radar vectors at some point. To fly to LIMBO I would have had to fly a heading of about 245 so I was prepping my heading bug for a left turn as soon as the radar vectors were given. Still flying a heading of 290 because I hadn't yet received any radar vectors, I ended up intercepting the LAX 170 radial well north of the LIMBO intersection.

After intercepting the radial the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX and flew direct LAX. The controller didn't say anything but I definitely was little uncomfortable given my proximity to the departure end of KLAX.

Did I do anything wrong?
 

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Greg Bockelman said:
A simple question to ATC would clear up all confusion.
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I attempted but couldn't get a word in. Even tried "SoCal Departure, Cessna1234 request clarification", the next I heard from the controller, I received clearance to 7000 after I was already established inbound on the 170 LAX radial.
 
My read is that (assuming your clearance noted above is accurate), then you must stay on runway heading until given radar vectors to intercept the 170r LAX, climbing to 3K (and leveling at 3K until further clearance to 7K).
 
My guess is that LIMBO was the only point the controller could plug into the computer to give you the 170 radial, but I don't know. Anyways, if you were in radar contact and not given a turn, I would have done exactly what you did and would think ATC would expect me to do the same.
 
Based on the chart and your clearance I would say what you did was correct. If they truly wanted you to to LIMBO, it should have been RH, RV LIMBO,170rLAX.

Departing SoCal I will often get a clearance like that when transitioning through LAX Bravo. They want you at a very specific altitude in Bravo...in your case 3000' minimum and the clearance to LIMBO should provide enough climb time had you needed it...basically climbing vectors. If you can get up there quicker, I always get D-> [fix] and skip a few steps in my clearance. Had you been passing over LAX at 1500' and still climbing I suspect you may have heard something from ATC.

Granted it was a bit unclear.
 
If departure never gave you any further instructions then you should still have been flying the runway heading (unless you had a communications failure).
 
Larry in TN said:
If departure never gave you any further instructions then you should still have been flying the runway heading (unless you had a communications failure).
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Agreed, the confusing part for me was the fact that by the time I intercepted the radial I was already passed in intersection that was a part of my clearance.
 
Runway heading ,expect radar vectors. Technically you should have been on runway heading.
 
Shawn said:
Based on the chart and your clearance I would say what you did was correct. If they truly wanted you to to LIMBO, it should have been RH, RV LIMBO,170rLAX.
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Yep, that's what was so strange. LIMBO is already SW of the field and my initial heading took my to the NW. The way my clearance read was almost like I was going to intercept the 170rLAX south of LIMBO.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
My guess is that LIMBO was the only point the controller could plug into the computer to give you the 170 radial, but I don't know. Anyways, if you were in radar contact and not given a turn, I would have done exactly what you did and would think ATC would expect me to do the same.
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I don't know either. The overall route is northerly from KTOA to KWJF.

Fly RH, RV to 170r LAX, LAX, then as filed - vectors to the R170, then northbound toward LAX - makes sense to me as a clearance.

Even Fly RH, RV to LIMBO, 170r LAX then as filed- reversing the LIMBO and radial sequence - makes sense

But Fly RH, RV to 170r LAX, LIMBO, D-> LAX, then as filed - vectors to the R170 then turn southbound in a direction opposite to the direction of flight, fly for whatever number of miles southbound to LIMBO, then make a U-turn and fly the same course you just flew south back north toward LAX - just doesn't.​

Strikes me as a mistake in the clearance, either in the issuance or the understanding. I probably would have asked for clarification from CD while still on the ground once I digested what it was telling me to do. If I didn't notice until airborne, though, like you, I would have done exactly what labbadabba did. It's really the only think that makes sense given the loss of communications.

@labbadabba, if you did anything wrong, given that airspace, you would likely have heard the bad Brasher warning words, "Possible pilot deviation. Suggest you call..."
 
So here is a bit of clarification. LIMBO is part of the ODP regardless of direction of flight hence the inclusion in the clearance:

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwys 29L, 29R, climb runway
heading. Rwys 11L, 11R, climbing left turn to heading 290°.
Both departures climb to 3000, intercept LAX R-170 to LIMBO
 
I have always wanted to say, "xxx approach, possible atc deviation; I have a number for you to call when I get down, advise when ready"
 
labbadabba said:
Yep, that's what was so strange. LIMBO is already SW of the field and my initial heading took my to the NW. The way my clearance read was almost like I was going to intercept the 170rLAX south of LIMBO.
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You're thinking too hard about it.

The clearance was for radar vectors. The departure controller was going to vector you to your route, likely NOT to LIMBO. He'd send you to wherever it was convenient for him at the time. The LIMBO fix, radial, etc. was there primarily for lost comm though, if traffic required, he could have vectored you to join the route at LIMBO.
 
Shawn said:
So here is a bit of clarification. LIMBO is part of the ODP regardless of direction of flight hence the inclusion in the clearance:

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwys 29L, 29R, climb runway
heading. Rwys 11L, 11R, climbing left turn to heading 290°.
Both departures climb to 3000, intercept LAX R-170 to LIMBO
Click to expand...

So weird that the DP for 29 would try to get you to intercept the 170rLAX south of LIMBO after flying runway heading, which is how I read that...

Oh well. I didn't run into anything and the controller seemed not to have an issue. I should have looked more closely at what the departure clearance was telling me before I got in the air. Yay for a new learning experience!
 
Would be interesting if someone from SoCal ATC was on here and perhaps could give some insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
labbadabba said:
Flying KTOA to KWJF

The first waypoint on my filed plan was LAX VOR I received this clearance:

C - Cleared to KWJF
R - Fly RH, RV to 170r LAX, LIMBO, D-> LAX, then as filed
A - 3000/7000 in five
F - 134.7
T - 1234

Okay so I departed Torrance from runway 29 and was flying Runway Heading expecting radar vectors at some point. To fly to LIMBO I would have had to fly a heading of about 245 so I was prepping my heading bug for a left turn as soon as the radar vectors were given. Still flying a heading of 290 because I hadn't yet received any radar vectors, I ended up intercepting the LAX 170 radial well north of the LIMBO intersection.

After intercepting the radial the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX and flew direct LAX. The controller didn't say anything but I definitely was little uncomfortable given my proximity to the departure end of KLAX.

Did I do anything wrong?
Click to expand...

Yes, you did. Your clearance was LIMBO LAX. Your way to LIMBO was the LAX170 radial. Your way to the LAX170 radial was Radar Vectors and your last clearance recieved was to fly Runway Heading until recieving those vectors. The AIM is clear on what to do if your last assigned heading takes you through the course you are being vectored to. You fly through it and request clarification from ATC. At some point you have to make the determination that you are NORDO and execute lost com procedures. That would be the LAX170 radial to LIMBO and then LAX. ".....the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX and flew direct LAX....." That train of thought will get you in big trouble someday. Why the controller didn't say anything is a mystery. Ask yourself this. If after departing the controller says "join the LAX170 radial, resume own navigation" what would you have done? Just thrown LIMBO out the window because you think it is silly to make a 180? I know I'm sounding kinda harsh here but you really need to think about what your train of thought was and review IFR procedures.
the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX
the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX
the next part of my clearance was LIMBO but I would have had to do a 180 and then fly direct LAX. Instead since I was already on the airway I turned towards LAX
 
Sheesh, I was copying and pasting but it didn't seem like it was working so I typed it out. Anyone know why it didn't show when I pasted?
 
luvflyin said:
Sheesh, I was copying and pasting but it didn't seem like it was working so I typed it out. Anyone know why it didn't show when I pasted?
Click to expand...

Because this board software is so much more awesomer than vB
 
That DP can't be just for LAX B crossings.

The way I read it is, in the case of lost comms, you do indeed intercept LAX R170 southbound to LIMBO, then turn around. With radar vectors, you'll almost certainly skip LIMBO, like you did.

The DP sure looks optimized for departures along V8, rather than V64. I wonder if the assumption is that all departing traffic goes eastbound. Seems odd.
 
MAKG1 said:
That DP can't be just for LAX B crossings.

The way I read it is, in the case of lost comms, you do indeed intercept LAX R170 southbound to LIMBO, then turn around. With radar vectors, you'll almost certainly skip LIMBO, like you did.

The DP sure looks optimized for departures along V8, rather than V64. I wonder if the assumption is that all departing traffic goes eastbound. Seems odd.
Click to expand...

There isn't a "canned" route for TOA to WJF. LIMBO is used for canned routes going east and southeast. The routes for the Burbank area airports are over SMO then SILEX or CANOG at 4000 or 5000. Labbadabba probably had V165 V518 PMD after LAX.
 
luvflyin said:
There isn't a "canned" route for TOA to WJF. LIMBO is used for canned routes going east and southeast. The routes for the Burbank area airports are over SMO then SILEX or CANOG at 4000 or 5000. Labbadabba probably had V165 V518 PMD after LAX.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a TEC route. SCTN30. LAX V165 LANGE V518 PMD.
 
I think you did just fine. Seems to me it was likely the controller got busy, forgot about you, or thought he had given you instructions to join V64 to LAX. So, you were flying as assigned but did not get vectors... so what would be expected? Let's say the controller made a mistake in not giving you vectors or further instructions (certainly wasn't your fault). What is the most reasonable expectation? 1) Turn left to LIMBO and do some kind of convoluted reversal (not to mention which direction to turn, tying up airspace); 2) Turn on-course. I just could not see how turning left to LIMBO would have been the right choice without specific instructions on how to reverse or go from there. Why vector you all over the sky to get you back on course when you can just join up?

The controller may have finally remembered you, saw you were heading to the LAX-170, expected you would join it to LAX, and went on to other things. If you did the wrong thing, he would surely have said something.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, there is a TEC route. SCTN30. LAX V165 LANGE V518 PMD.
Click to expand...

Yeah. There it is. I'd like to find out why they gave him LIMBO before LAX. It wouldn't surprise me if that is routine there. Maybe someone here who flies that route a lot will know.
 
They gave him LIMBO first because TEC routes serve multiple departure airports. TOA has an SOP which states that departures are issued a clearance via LIMBO first. If your next fix is SLI, you get LIMBO V64 SLI. If your next fix is SMO, you get LIMBO V64 SMO125R SMO.

Based on the clearance you presented, runway heading, period.

As an aside, are you sure it was RH RV LAX R-170 and not "fly runway heading, intercept the LAX R-170 to LIMBO?"
 
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