Put up a windsock if you wanna...

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
May 11, 2007
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Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
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Display name:
Dan Mc
...so I get a call on my cell at 3 this afternoon.

"Remember me? You looked at my 150 I was selling...."

"Yep."

"Do you do biennials?"

"Sure -- have you been flying much?"

"Not much in the last 3 months....say, how much do you charge?"

"$30 per hour, and we'll need a minimum of 2 hours -- one ground, one air.."

"OK.. my regular guy is away this weekend.. I just wanted to know if you were available as a backup."

"Oh sure -- my entire existence is on hold awaiting your blessed call..."

{I didn't really say the last line}

;)
 
Seems like a perfectly reasonable request to me. What am I missing?
 
There is some suggestion of an insult when you are asked to be a "backup".

For eg. you work hard all week, never see a client - then when "their guy" is goofing off, suddenly you are their favorite. Usually at 2am Sat.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
There is some suggestion of an insult when you are asked to be a "backup".

For eg. you work hard all week, never see a client - then when "their guy" is goofing off, suddenly you are their favorite. Usually at 2am Sat.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

The conversation ended thus: "OK, well if he's not available, you're on deck..."

I said, "Maybe -- I'll let you know."

I should have also mentioned I spent about 10 minutes answering questions, etc.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive here -- it's just difficult to make the transition from highly responsible professional with a schedule to "...at my beck and call" minion.
 
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Reminds me of the time this guy walks into my hangar carrying a bag with his airplane's logbooks. Says his mechanic moved away and would I mind signing off his annual, and don't worry he's already done everything.

Needless to say he never approached me again for a "favor".
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Reminds me of the time this guy walks into my hangar carrying a bag with his airplane's logbooks. Says his mechanic moved away and would I mind signing off his annual, and don't worry he's already done everything.

Needless to say he never approached me again for a "favor".
Click to expand...

I had another guy call me -- he "just needed a sign off" for the Commercial check ride.

"OK, well, let's fly together and I'll see if you're ready..."

Never called me back.
 
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he was checking your qualifications. That's his side of the story.

You're certainly under no obligation to schedule him. If he calls back, and you're busy, well, them's the breaks.

I'm curious why the biennial has to be done THIS weekend.



OTOH, yeah, I've heard a lot of bad student stories from my CFI friends. Just like anything else in this world -- most people are aholes. Sad, but true.
 
I don't care if I'm first, as long as I'm next.

-Willie
 
Had a high time glider pilot call one of the club instructors. This guy is not a member of the club and is also rated in powered aircraft.

"I need a Flight Review, can I come down and get one?"
"Well, I am not too keen on completing flight reviews for people I don't see flying on a regular basis, plus I only instruct for club members. I am out of town for the next two weekends, you can contact the other two club instructors and see what their plans are"

We have not heard a word from this guy.
Personally I am not too keen on providing a Flight Review in a glider to someone who will then go fly in a powered aircraft.
 
Wow! Does this mean all I have to do to get a rating is keep calling examiners until I find a lazy, unscrupulous one? That never occurred to me before. Do you think they charge a little more if they don't actually see you perform a task? Heck, if I had the money I could probably be an ATP by the end of the year. :)

John
 
(Chuckle)

I get these sorts of calls from time to time...

...used to be, I'd get all excited, visit at length about the caller's problems, take notes and try to sign 'em up.

Now, I visit briefly, and set up a time for them to come into the office to review the facts and discuss a plan of action. The tire-kickers and lookie-loos either decline the appointment or don't show up; the genuine articles show up and, most often, become clients (if we think we can help!).

I think it's OK to ask rates and availability; I think it's cheesy to say "you can be my backup"; but I also think that Mr. MightNeedABackup should not expect you'll be available at his beck and call if he does not establish an appointment and agree to pay.
 
SCCutler said:
(Chuckle)

I get these sorts of calls from time to time...

...used to be, I'd get all excited, visit at length about the caller's problems, take notes and try to sign 'em up.

Now, I visit briefly, and set up a time for them to come into the office to review the facts and discuss a plan of action. The tire-kickers and lookie-loos either decline the appointment or don't show up; the genuine articles show up and, most often, become clients (if we think we can help!).

I think it's OK to ask rates and availability; I think it's cheesy to say "you can be my backup"; but I also think that Mr. MightNeedABackup should not expect you'll be available at his beck and call if he does not establish an appointment and agree to pay.
Click to expand...

Yep -- I don't have any problem being a "backup."

Just say so from the outset.
 
dmccormack said:
Read the thread... plenty of good responses by experienced CFIs.
Click to expand...
I did read the thread and I saw nothing that one would not normally expect in a service industry. It is not like he booked you. It was an inquiry, that's all. He was a tire kicker, welcome to business, you'll get lots of tire kickers. I hope you did not spend all weekend sitting at the phone because that would be a mistake.
 
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I'm with Scott on this one. He was needing a BFR and it seemed the CFi he knew and trusted was not available. He was just touching base with you to see if you do them And what you charge. Who knows if h will do it or not/ you are not required to wait and see.

It seemed like a pretty normal discussion. Yeah he is tire kicking, but welcome to sales, that is just how it goes. A lot of instructors just don't seem to realize that they are salesmen.
 
Hey guys, I'm a professional CFI! I can't be bothered to work around others schedules, they work around me!

Of course, that's after I get to complain about the fact that they think they're hiring me, too.
 
SkyHog said:
Hey guys, I'm a professional CFI! I can't be bothered to work around others schedules, they work around me!

Of course, that's after I get to complain about the fact that they think they're hiring me, too.
Click to expand...

I'm a part-time CFI.

::Yawn::

I went flying instead -- and I paid for the fuel.

:yes:
 
jesse said:
I'm with Scott on this one. He was needing a BFR and it seemed the CFi he knew and trusted was not available. He was just touching base with you to see if you do them And what you charge. Who knows if h will do it or not/ you are not required to wait and see.

It seemed like a pretty normal discussion. Yeah he is tire kicking, but welcome to sales, that is just how it goes. A lot of instructors just don't seem to realize that they are salesmen.
Click to expand...

I've been doing various sales since 1990. Kinda been around the block a few times, and know the ratio of inquiries to contracts is good if it's 1 in 20.

My only issue with this particular case was the guy waited until the end of the conversation to award me with "on-deck" status (yes, his words).

Sorry, I don't need the 60 bucks and 1.1 flight time that badly.

;)
 
dmccormack said:
My only issue with this particular case was the guy waited until the end of the conversation to award me with "on-deck" status (yes, his words).

Sorry, I don't need the 60 bucks and 1.1 flight time that badly.

;)
Click to expand...
So, going back....

smigaldi said:
So your issue is the order in which he asked questions of you? :dunno::dunno:
Click to expand...
 
smigaldi said:
So, going back....
Click to expand...

It's more than the "order of the questions."

It was the condescending tone that rewards me with the very possibility of conducting his BFR right now (since his regular guy wasn't available right now) that bugged me.

Of course "tone" doesn't translate well to straight prose, but this guy bugged me... and I get 1-2 calls a week with questions that run "Is there fuel available at Rostraver?" (yes) to "Can you do an annual on my airplane?" (no).

Those don't bug me. This one bugged me. :dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
Those don't bug me. This one bugged me. :dunno:
Click to expand...

"Sure, just call me when you're ready. I'll see if I can work you in."

"BTW, does your regular guy do a real review, or are you just looking for a quickie and out the door?"

"And while I'm thinking about it, did you ever take care of all those squawks on that POC 150 so you can legally fly it?"
 
wabower said:
"Sure, just call me when you're ready. I'll see if I can work you in."

"BTW, does your regular guy do a real review, or are you just looking for a quickie and out the door?"

"And while I'm thinking about it, did you ever take care of all those squawks on that POC 150 so you can legally fly it?"
Click to expand...

Hehehe..

The first was word for word my response.

I since learned a bit more about the 150 -- apparently the fuel lines were air hose tubing and then I kinda got bored after hour two of the IAs talking....
 
dmccormack said:
Perhaps I'm overly sensitive here -- it's just difficult to make the transition from highly responsible professional with a schedule to "...at my beck and call" minion.
Click to expand...

Isn't being a part-time CFI a lot like being a realtor, in that you have to be available when your clients want you to be?

If you turn the guy down, he tells his friends, "Dunno about him. Couldn't schedule review time with him."

If you accept the guy, he tells his friends, "Yeah, he's a good CFI and he worked me in on short notice."

Which review helps build your client base?


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
Isn't being a part-time CFI a lot like being a realtor, in that you have to be available when your clients want you to be?

If you turn the guy down, he tells his friends, "Dunno about him. Couldn't schedule review time with him."

If you accept the guy, he tells his friends, "Yeah, he's a good CFI and he worked me in on short notice."

Which review helps build your client base?


Trapper John
Click to expand...

TJ's ontrack! Maybe you don't care but here's a potential client that called you! The hard part is done! Now upsell your services of what you can do, win him over and let "Positive" word of mouth add to your client base.
 
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Trapper John said:
Isn't being a part-time CFI a lot like being a realtor, in that you have to be available when your clients want you to be?

If you turn the guy down, he tells his friends, "Dunno about him. Couldn't schedule review time with him."

If you accept the guy, he tells his friends, "Yeah, he's a good CFI and he worked me in on short notice."

Which review helps build your client base?


Trapper John
Click to expand...

Not for me it's not. A part-time realtor is doing it for the money -- not because he loves houses (at least none that I know).

Trust me -- I've done my share of good public and customer relations, including extensive time on the phone with "prospects," guiding folks to other flight schools and CFIs, etc.

I don't fly for the money or even the hours. I fly because I love to fly and love to help someone else learn and develop as a pilot. Perhaps that is too narrow -- but that's all I have time for.

This particular case grated on me for a number of reasons, none of which were clear from the initial post, unfortunately.
 
CT Arrow said:
TJ's ontrack! Maybe you don't care but here's a potential client that called you! The hard part is done! Now upsell your services of what you can do, win him over and let "Positive" word of mouth add to your client base.
Click to expand...

That's an excellent tactic and works often.

But if you know this then you also know when and how to avoid time-wasters.

:thumbsup:
 
All calf ropers know that the "brahmers" will crap when the rope gets tight. That also happens to be when you're stringing and tying, and it will end up all over your Levi's. It's even worse in the spring when they are feeding on the fresh green grass. So if you're not in the money, just ride up and throw a loop that bounces off the side of their head to prevent a lot of cleaning up and stinking all day anyway. A guy has to be good enough to miss the ones he needs to miss.

dmccormack said:
Not for me it's not. A part-time realtor is doing it for the money -- not because he loves houses (at least none that I know).

Trust me -- I've done my share of good public and customer relations, including extensive time on the phone with "prospects," guiding folks to other flight schools and CFIs, etc.

I don't fly for the money or even the hours. I fly because I love to fly and love to help someone else learn and develop as a pilot. Perhaps that is too narrow -- but that's all I have time for.

This particular case grated on me for a number of reasons, none of which were clear from the initial post, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
 
Dan, it sounds like you make your living off something other than aviation, and do the CFI thing for fun. That's fine, by the way, probably the best way to do it. You can blow off whomsoever you choose for whatever reasons you choose, no skin off your nose and you can always pay for the gas. There are too many schlubs out there doing the CFI think for a living, and I imagine their perspective is quite different. If it'll put food on the table being some dude's backup CFI is just fine.
 
steingar said:
Dan, it sounds like you make your living off something other than aviation, and do the CFI thing for fun. That's fine, by the way, probably the best way to do it. You can blow off whomsoever you choose for whatever reasons you choose, no skin off your nose and you can always pay for the gas. There are too many schlubs out there doing the CFI think for a living, and I imagine their perspective is quite different. If it'll put food on the table being some dude's backup CFI is just fine.
Click to expand...

Yep -- I agree completely.

As I said earlier -- it's partly my problem making the transition from Grand Poobah Manager to com'ere lackey.
 
dmccormack said:
That's an excellent tactic and works often.

But if you know this then you also know when and how to avoid time-wasters.

:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Yea, I do sales for a living and while I have had my share of
tire kickers, a few that I would have written off to gut instint, proved to be legit and solid accounts. With that said, everyone gets the same attention.

However, "Your mileage may vary" :smilewinkgrin:
 
CT Arrow said:
Yea, I do sales for a living and while I have had my share of
tire kickers, a few that I would have written off to gut instint, proved to be legit and solid accounts. With that said, everyone gets the same attention.

However, "Your mileage may vary" :smilewinkgrin:
Click to expand...

You're right.

But I'll take the potential loss on this one.

;)
 
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