Purchasing advice

U

UngaWunga

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
2,020
Display Name
Display name:
UngaWunga
I'm looking at a plane at a nearby airport this week, and am most likely going to make an offer. The plane is a month out of annual. I would like to get it flown to my local airport so a mechanic there can do a pre-buy for me.

Is there any paperwork needed to fly a plane out of annual?
Any suggestions on how to work the annual into the purchase agreement? I'll pay for the pre-buy, but want the seller to cover the annual and anything that pops up.
Paperwork - if the purchase happens, where can I get a list of the forms that need to filled out and sent to the FAA? I imagine this is all on the AOPA site somewhere, but I haven't found it yet with a quick search.
 
Why have a pre-buy AND an annual? Make the seller pay for the annual, your A&P of choice, and use that as your pre-buy.
 
You could get a ferry permit, but the FAA will still require a mechanic at the point of departure to sign off that it's airworthy enough for the flight and for practical purposes, you might as well just do the annual if there is a mechanic there.

You need a bill of sale form (8050-2) and a registration application form (8050-1) as far as the FAA is concerned. You must use the original multipart registration form. You can't download this. You can get it from the FSDO or Joklahoma City but many dealers also have a stock of them.

If you are financing this aircraft (secured by the aircraft), you need to talk to your lender to see what specific requirements they have. They may require a title search and that you use an escrow service (unless you have a seller whose willing to sign over a bill of sale prior to getting the funds).
 
Here's the snag I see...what if you get a ferry permit for the pre-buy inspection and then the deal doesn't go through? The FAA kind of frowns on a second ferry permit to fly the airplane back home.
 
How do you get a ferry permit? Contact the FSDO again?

Prebuy vs annual... everyone says that a prebuy is to find all the little things that might go wrong in the future, and the annual is to make sure aircraft is airworthy. Two different things.
 
UngaWunga said:
How do you get a ferry permit? Contact the FSDO again?

Prebuy vs annual... everyone says that a prebuy is to find all the little things that might go wrong in the future, and the annual is to make sure aircraft is airworthy. Two different things.
Click to expand...

Why would you buy any aircraft that you can't test fly?

Get the annual done. and add any items that you would like at that time.
Do the radios all work?
Is the W&B correct, = weigh it find out.
 
Certainly don't pay to have the thing annualed as others have said. Even if the seller pays for his mech to do an annual, you should pay for a detailed pre-buy because the person doing the work is working on behalf of the person paying the bill. The airplane needs to be in the shop of the person who is doing the pre-buy because you'll get a better inspection than if your mechanic has to travel away from his shop.

If possible, don't use the same mechanic for pre-buy that the seller has used for previous annuals because that mechanic can have a conflict of interest. People are just less likely to criticize their own work. Call it human nature.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the seller's mechanic would do anything unethical, but every time I have had an airplane looked at by a different mechanic, the new A&P has *always* found things that they didn't like that were either done or not done by those before. I liken it to proofreading (or like a dog marking its territory :D - whatevs). Others will find problems that the author doesn't find in his own work. The new mechanic typically goes over the airplane with a squinted gaze and lets fewer things go unnoted (even if they aren't major problems) and that is why even if the seller pays for an annual, you should have a third party mechanic, paid by you, do a separate pre-buy.

I like the idea of moving the airplane to the third-party mechanic's shop even if it requires a ferry permit, because the mechanic works more quickly and can be more thorough at his own shop. The seller should pay for whatever it costs to get the airplane into flying condition - be that ferry permit or annual - that's not your problem IMHO. The lack of annual should be a burden on the seller, not the buyer.

You should expect to pay for the expense of actually flying the airplane to whomever you choose for the pre-buy. If the airplane doesn't pass pre-buy, it's not your airplane. And thus it isn't your problem to get it home again. Offer the seller reasonable flight expenses to get his plane home but it's on him to get it done.

Who pays for what and who is responsible for what should be spelled out in the pre-purchase contract. Put it in writing and make both parties sign it.

As for the ferry permit, the inspection required for it is, in my experience, far far far from either a pre-buy or annual level of thoroughness. They just want to make sure the thing isn't likely to drop onto someone's house during this flight. The permit I received involved a mechanic, 30-45 min of inspection to check flight controls, flight instruments, and engine run-up. A FSDO guy was present IIRC (this was like 1997) and issued the permit. The FAA may frown on multiple ferry permits, but again, that is not your problem. The seller should ask the FSDO about that.

This is just my $0.001 from having purchased two aircraft in two very different ways. In the first, I used the seller's home-field mechanic (not ideal but it worked out OK). In the second, I paid to have the seller fly his plane to my mechanic. It didn't pass pre-buy and I paid flight expenses to send the seller home again. We later completed the sale after he had repairs done.
 
Last edited:
petrolero said:
Certainly don't pay to have the thing annualed as others have said. Even if the seller pays for his mech to do an annual, you should pay for a detailed pre-buy because the person doing the work is working on behalf of the person paying the bill. The airplane needs to be in the shop of the person who is doing the pre-buy because you'll get a better inspection than if your mechanic has to travel away from his shop.

If possible, don't use the same mechanic for pre-buy that the seller has used for previous annuals because that mechanic can have a conflict of interest. People are just less likely to criticize their own work. Call it human nature.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the seller's mechanic would do anything unethical, but every time I have had an airplane looked at by a different mechanic, the new A&P has *always* found things that they didn't like that were either done or not done by those before. I liken it to proofreading (or like a dog marking its territory :D - whatevs). Others will find problems that the author doesn't find in his own work. The new mechanic typically goes over the airplane with a squinted gaze and lets fewer things go unnoted (even if they aren't major problems) and that is why even if the seller pays for an annual, you should have a third party mechanic, paid by you, do a separate pre-buy.

I like the idea of moving the airplane to the third-party mechanic's shop even if it requires a ferry permit, because the mechanic works more quickly and can be more thorough at his own shop. The seller should pay for whatever it costs to get the airplane into flying condition - be that ferry permit or annual - that's not your problem IMHO. The lack of annual should be a burden on the seller, not the buyer.

You should expect to pay for the expense of actually flying the airplane to whomever you choose for the pre-buy. If the airplane doesn't pass pre-buy, it's not your airplane. And thus it isn't your problem to get it home again. Offer the seller reasonable flight expenses to get his plane home but it's on him to get it done.

Who pays for what and who is responsible for what should be spelled out in the pre-purchase contract. Put it in writing and make both parties sign it.

As for the ferry permit, the inspection required for it is, in my experience, far far far from either a pre-buy or annual level of thoroughness. They just want to make sure the thing isn't likely to drop onto someone's house during this flight. The permit I received involved a mechanic, 30-45 min of inspection to check flight controls, flight instruments, and engine run-up. A FSDO guy was present IIRC (this was like 1997) and issued the permit. The FAA may frown on multiple ferry permits, but again, that is not your problem. The seller should ask the FSDO about that.

This is just my $0.001 from having purchased two aircraft in two very different ways. In the first, I used the seller's home-field mechanic (not ideal but it worked out OK). In the second, I paid to have the seller fly his plane to my mechanic. It didn't pass pre-buy and I paid flight expenses to send the seller home again. We later completed the sale after he had repairs done.
Click to expand...

This is a typical buyers perspective, who never stops to think we mechanics think more of our certificates than to do a shoddy job. There are inspection check list to comply with, and the inspecting IA for the annual will be more than happy to add hours to the bill to comply with the buyers requests.

The only real question will be to the A&P-IA who will be doing your first annual is " what will this aircraft cost me to have you declare it airworthy next year. and get it in writing. IOW's as it sets, what would you consider unairworthy?
 
Tom-D said:
This is a typical buyers perspective, who never stops to think we mechanics think more of our certificates than to do a shoddy job. There are inspection check list to comply with, and the inspecting IA for the annual will be more than happy to add hours to the bill to comply with the buyers requests.

The only real question will be to the A&P-IA who will be doing your first annual is " what will this aircraft cost me to have you declare it airworthy next year. and get it in writing. IOW's as it sets, what would you consider unairworthy?
Click to expand...


It's typical because it's true in many people's experience.

And in any case you apparently 'didn't stop' to read my disclaimer and ignored or discounted my (and likely others') real world experience. Every mechanic I've had look at one of my aircraft has found something he didn't like about what the previous mechanics did or didn't do. 100%. That doesn't mean the previous mechanics did anything unethical - as I clearly stated in my post.


.
 
Last edited:
UngaWunga said:
How do you get a ferry permit? Contact the FSDO again?
Click to expand...
Normally the mechanic doing the inspection makes the request.

Prebuy vs annual... everyone says that a prebuy is to find all the little things that might go wrong in the future, and the annual is to make sure aircraft is airworthy. Two different things.
Click to expand...
Pretty much correct, but this plane will need both.
 
Thanks. Called a few people, things seem to be working out. Just hoping the plane is everything the seller says it is... 8)
 
Argh.... got the pre-buy done, found a bunch of things that are due to lack of maintenance in the last 1-2 years. Seller isn't willing to fix any of them or move on his price. Got a very curt response to my offer. Guess he can keep his plane for another few years on the tarmac. Lord knows we need more planes sitting unused.

Thanks all. Search continues.

Anyone have a loved 172L or M they want to get rid of?
 
The fact that the current owner let it get out of annual is a red flag for me. If he wont negotiate then it would seem that he is looking for a sucker to unload it on to. It was probably best to walk on this one. Lots of good 172's out there, just have to keep on looking.
 
Next time you get to the point of the Annual and Pre-Buy, get it in writing that you agree to pay for the first $1000 of repairs, you both split the $1001-5000 of repairs, 50/50, and the seller has the obligation for repairs in excess of $5k, or he will reimburse you for amounts you have paid.

May take a bit to get his acceptance, but it shows you will not nickel and dime him as you take the first hit ($1000) and that you are fair on the next set ($1001-5k). And he is on the hook if their are major issues, undisclosed.

(Assumes the purchase price you negotiated leaves you room to pay for the repairs you are responsible).
 
He lost his medical, so the plane sits. It was listed last fall at a higher price. He's asking top dollar for it, which wouldn't be too far off if everything was in the condition he said it was. Prebuy didn't find anything major, but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.
 
UngaWunga said:
He lost his medical, so the plane sits. It was listed last fall at a higher price. He's asking top dollar for it, which wouldn't be too far off if everything was in the condition he said it was. Prebuy didn't find anything major, but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.
Click to expand...



We're the items on the Pre-Buy serious issues?

Or just "noise" ?

Sometimes inspectors feel obligated to point out unimportant stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
UngaWunga said:
How do you get a ferry permit? Contact the FSDO again?

Prebuy vs annual... everyone says that a prebuy is to find all the little things that might go wrong in the future, and the annual is to make sure aircraft is airworthy. Two different things.
Click to expand...

Correct, but the process for each is parallel enough, that much of the nit opening up work for an annual has to be done to do a good prebuy, so if the plane passes at that point, it is much easier and more cost effective to complete the annual while it is still all open.
 
JoseCuervo said:
We're the items on the Pre-Buy serious issues?

Or just "noise" ?

Sometimes inspectors feel obligated to point out unimportant stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Not noise. Nav gear not working, AI needs rebuilding, corrosion in wings and tail, mag need overhaul (time), out of annual, transponder and elt cert needed, low time airframe but a replacement engine that had a high TT, a bunch of smaller things which shows a lack of maintenance, etc...

There was a good list of things for a plane that priced like everything was working well, and the seller isn't willing to budge. Ok, he can keep it.
 
Junk, see, that didn't even need a prebuy inspection, it just needed a prebuy screening. Adds always lie, pictures always lie, you don't know the truth until you walk up to the plane.

I would say 30-40% of the planes I look at for people I walk away within 5 minutes on actual condition and misrepresentation accorded into the price.
 
Two years from now the plane will still be sitting there with weeds grown around it and it rotted beyond repair.

Just the way it goes. There's tons of them sitting at my airport. These guys would of done better to give them away then keep paying ramp fees.
 
Tom-D said:
This is a typical buyers perspective, who never stops to think we mechanics think more of our certificates than to do a shoddy job. There are inspection check list to comply with, and the inspecting IA for the annual will be more than happy to add hours to the bill to comply with the buyers requests.

The only real question will be to the A&P-IA who will be doing your first annual is " what will this aircraft cost me to have you declare it airworthy next year. and get it in writing. IOW's as it sets, what would you consider unairworthy?
Click to expand...

Well there are also AP IAs I wouldn't trust to change the oil on my lawnmower.

The BIG FACTOR is airworthy is just the start and in many cases is EXPECTED.

It's the snags and type specific little things that are where the prebuy really separates the APs who know the type and know a prebuy, yeah the play in the stab trim is airworthy, but it should be tightened up, or the slicks are airworthy but you only have 50hrs before inspection you should get them swapped for some bendix, the exhaust is airworthy buy has been repaired, might want to have a acorn unit included in the sale, etc etc

A prebuy is to verify quality and value, not just airworthiness.

MauleSkinner said:
Here's the snag I see...what if you get a ferry permit for the pre-buy inspection and then the deal doesn't go through? The FAA kind of frowns on a second ferry permit to fly the airplane back home.
Click to expand...


GREAT!!!

Sounds like a good buying tactic, worst case not his problem, might cause someone trying to sell a POS to think twice.

Arrow115 said:
The fact that the current owner let it get out of annual is a red flag for me. If he wont negotiate then it would seem that he is looking for a sucker to unload it on to. It was probably best to walk on this one. Lots of good 172's out there, just have to keep on looking.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
That's not red flag at all.

When I left the country for a while I let my plane fall out of annual, she was all wrapped up in the hangar and I wasn't going to get any use out of her half way around the globe, why burn annual time when I'm not going to be able to fly the plane vs just getting the annual done when I get back home.

UngaWunga said:
Argh.... got the pre-buy done, found a bunch of things that are due to lack of maintenance in the last 1-2 years. Seller isn't willing to fix any of them or move on his price. Got a very curt response to my offer. Guess he can keep his plane for another few years on the tarmac. Lord knows we need more planes sitting unused.

Thanks all. Search continues.

Anyone have a loved 172L or M they want to get rid of?
Click to expand...

Well it's the most produced airframe of all time, I'd imagine you'll find on without too much effort.

You sure you really want to buy a 172? Not a bad plane but they ain't exactly much more than your standard issue trainer, why not look into a Grumman AA5, or at least a Cessna 170 or something.
 
Last edited:
As for the pre-buy, guy from my local field did a good job, looking for things that will cost me money in the future. Worth the money to have him look it over, and I learned a bunch.

As for 172 vs something else? My "plan" is to buy and fly it for 1-2 years, and then decide if flying is for us and what direction we should go with? I like to pop in/out of the grass strips we have around here, and I like the spring gear. 172s are easy to fly, and will let me easily get a bunch of hours in with moderate fuel burn. Can pop the rear seats out and put a bunch of stuff in it. Wife wants to go places. There's a market for them when we decide to sell it. I think of a 172 like a small wagon car. Sure, there's bigger and faster, but it'll work for now.
 
UngaWunga said:
As for the pre-buy, guy from my local field did a good job, looking for things that will cost me money in the future. Worth the money to have him look it over, and I learned a bunch.

As for 172 vs something else? My "plan" is to buy and fly it for 1-2 years, and then decide if flying is for us and what direction we should go with? I like to pop in/out of the grass strips we have around here, and I like the spring gear. 172s are easy to fly, and will let me easily get a bunch of hours in with moderate fuel burn. Can pop the rear seats out and put a bunch of stuff in it. Wife wants to go places. There's a market for them when we decide to sell it. I think of a 172 like a small wagon car. Sure, there's bigger and faster, but it'll work for now.
Click to expand...


This is true,

The thing is it's great for you buying it, but when you sell it there are a ton of them out there, if you don't have a really nice one for a low price they'll just move down the road and buy someone elses, heck with as many as there are might even be at your same field.

If you're planning on only keeping it a few years, better get a really nice one with pretty paint and interior too, for a low low price.

I'll betcha if you flew your wife in a Grumman AA5 (same price point as your 172) she'd make you buy the Grumman ;)

Ether way good luck
 
James331 said:
This is true,

The thing is it's great for you buying it, but when you sell it there are a ton of them out there, if you don't have a really nice one for a low price they'll just move down the road and buy someone elses, heck with as many as there are might even be at your same field.

If you're planning on only keeping it a few years, better get a really nice one with pretty paint and interior too, for a low low price.

I'll betcha if you flew your wife in a Grumman AA5 (same price point as your 172) she'd make you buy the Grumman ;)

Ether way good luck
Click to expand...

Yes, get a nice one to begin with. You'll be more likely to sell it later. At a decent price. Buying cheap is always expensive. If the one you looked at sat outside for a time I would have walked right passed it. A well maintained airplane usually sits inside a hangar and usually is carefully maintained. Yes on the Grumman too. If an aircraft has been well maintained, the seller will usually annual it as a sales condition, as it would not cost him much. It's a buyers market, take your time.
 
James331 said:
:rolleyes:
That's not red flag at all.

When I left the country for a while I let my plane fall out of annual, she was all wrapped up in the hangar and I wasn't going to get any use out of her half way around the globe, why burn annual time when I'm not going to be able to fly the plane vs just getting the annual done when I get back home.
Click to expand...

So you have a unique situation.:rolleyes2: My statement is still accurate. For the most part, if a plane is out of annual, the owner is not keeping up with maintenance. Remember this is a 172, there are hundreds of them for sale and in annual ready to fly. If I was buying something a little less common, like a Corsair, yeah I would be a lot more flexible.

Let's say I was in that owners position and I lost my medical with no hope of getting back. Letting the plane get out of annual makes the plane less marketable. Less money for me. Have a mechanic do the basic annual, then you can fly it to wherever and have the prebuy done. From there the squawks are negotiable.
 
Not that unique, I do the same. Yes, it is something to note and keep in mind, but it is not really something that you can accurately judge the aircraft by. When I bought my 310, it had been out of annual for 12 years. During that time it had $200,000 of airframe restoration work done to it.
 
Henning said:
Not that unique, I do the same. Yes, it is something to note and keep in mind, but it is not really something that you can accurately judge the aircraft by. When I bought my 310, it had been out of annual for 12 years. During that time it had $200,000 of airframe restoration work done to it.
Click to expand...

I thought we were talking about usual sales or typical sales. Your 310 history , for me would be highly unusual and worth a most careful and detailed analysis by a real pro. Not the usual sale circumstances for sure.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I thought we were talking about usual sales or typical sales. Your 310 history , for me would be highly unusual and worth a most careful and detailed analysis by a real pro. Not the usual sale circumstances for sure.
Click to expand...

That's the point, there is no "usual" deal, each is unique, whether it is in annual or not is just one minor element to consider. If I have the plane for sale and not in annual, it's because I'm not currently using it and selling it with a fresh annual for the next owner.
 
Last edited:
Jimmy cooper said:
Yes, get a nice one to begin with. You'll be more likely to sell it later. At a decent price. Buying cheap is always expensive. If the one you looked at sat outside for a time I would have walked right passed it. A well maintained airplane usually sits inside a hangar and usually is carefully maintained. Yes on the Grumman too. If an aircraft has been well maintained, the seller will usually annual it as a sales condition, as it would not cost him much. It's a buyers market, take your time.
Click to expand...

stop trying to use common sense arguments with me. They won't work.
 
Henning said:
That's the point, there is no "usual" deal, each is unique, whether it is in annual or not is just one minor element to consider. If I have the plane for sale and not in annual, it's because I'm not currently using it and selling it with a fresh annual for the next owner.
Click to expand...

A nice airplane kept inside is " usually" in pretty nice shape and for the most part, in annual. I've only purchased a total of eight, but seven were all in very nice shape and sold with a fresh annual. The other one was what made me buy the other seven this way. The one owner lied and the airplane was not as he represented it. You cannot trust anyone, especially today. The annual is not a minor consideration to me, it's very important and must accompany the sale, having been done within the last month or two or preferably at time of sale. Paid for by the seller. This worked well for me. Caveat emptor.
 
Be patient,theIr are plenty of nice 172s out there. Good luck on your search.
 
Send the seller a message:

"Sorry, but I'd like to see the annual complete before I go any further. That being said, if you complete the annual with no issues, then I'll get the pre-buy completed, with a contract that provided there are no discrepancies >$1000 in total to repair, I'll buy the airplane. I'll also put $1000 toward your cost of the annual if I buy"
 
I'd much rather the seller handle the routine maintenance of the plane he's trying to sell, especially if the price isn't negotiable.

Onwards.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A nice airplane kept inside is " usually" in pretty nice shape and for the most part, in annual. I've only purchased a total of eight, but seven were all in very nice shape and sold with a fresh annual. The other one was what made me buy the other seven this way. The one owner lied and the airplane was not as he represented it. You cannot trust anyone, especially today. The annual is not a minor consideration to me, it's very important and must accompany the sale, having been done within the last month or two or preferably at time of sale. Paid for by the seller. This worked well for me. Caveat emptor.
Click to expand...

The annual is not a major issue to me because it will be in annual when the deal is completed. You're welcome to filter choices anyway you please, you just may pass up some good ones if you eliminate them because they are out of annual is all. If you are looking for a common type, it probably won't make any difference.
 
Anyone have a loved 172L or M they want to get rid of?[/QUOTE]

I do!

I need to get my 1977 172N annual done and listed. If interested please send a PM.

Great airplane. My 3 kids got their PP in it. I'm just not using it since I brought it up to MA.
 
PM sent.

They are paving my local airfield this spring, so it has me thinking about other planes if I give up on looking for a reasonable 172.
 
Henning said:
The annual is not a major issue to me because it will be in annual when the deal is completed. You're welcome to filter choices anyway you please, you just may pass up some good ones if you eliminate them because they are out of annual is all. If you are looking for a common type, it probably won't make any difference.
Click to expand...


Exactly, and if the guy lost his medical and let the annual lapse a year, BFD :dunno:

For me the big one would be if the plane was kept inside, that's a large factor, especially if the plane wasn't being flown, worked on, washed, touched, for months on end.
 
James331 said:
Exactly, and if the guy lost his medical and let the annual lapse a year, BFD :dunno:

For me the big one would be if the plane was kept inside, that's a large factor, especially if the plane wasn't being flown, worked on, washed, touched, for months on end.
Click to expand...

There's as many reasons for a plane to be out of annual as there are planes, of itself it's meaningless.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top