Public Intox/3rd Class Med

F

Fly35

Guest
Hello all, filling out the online med documents and came across “other non-traffic misdemeanor arrests”. I have a public intoxication charge 15 years ago in college. I have no idea the disposition as I can’t remember, think I paid a fine and did some community service, can’t find any records. Is this going to be an issue? Appreciate the help. I didn’t submit the papers yet or have not set up an app with an AME
 
There are two questions that people are going to look at -
18v - asks about 1) any arrest or conviction related to driving while intoxicated or 2) any action which resulted in the suspension of your drivers license (including non-alcohol) or 3) attendance at a education or rehabilitation program. This one does not sound like you. Question 18v is the one that everyone automatically jumps to, but it only applies to 3 specific situations.
18w - asks about non-traffic convictions, including specifically public intoxication. This one is you. They want to see copies of the police reports and court records "if available". Also note that for every medical from now on, you have to answer yes again...you will answer yes to this question forever. You don't have to jump through all the hoops again, but you do have to say yes.

A single non-traffic event 15 years ago is probably not a huge concern. There are commercial pilots with DUIs on their record. But you still have to answer yes and not being able to get the reports means you might get a deferral while they assume the worst.

A consult is a good idea because it lets the AME find out what the FAA wants before your medical. In some cases the FAA will come up with a list of steps and say "if the airman can provide these things, then go ahead and issue in the office". With the consult, be very open with the AME about your situation and talk about behaviors - "I do not drink when I have to drive and vice versa" and "I do not have a drinking problem" are entirely different statements. The more they know, the better they can position your situation with the FAA and have the right understanding and right expectations.

The FAA has a rule - You cannot fly within 8 hours of having had a drink or while under the influence. My advice is to adopt this for motor vehicles too. It can be a little bit of a hassle, but it will keep your record absolutely clean.
 
bflynn said:
A consult is a good idea because it lets the AME find out what the FAA wants before your medical. In some cases the FAA will come up with a list of steps and say "if the airman can provide these things, then go ahead and issue in the office". With the consult, be very open with the AME about your situation and talk about behaviors - "I do not drink when I have to drive and vice versa" and "I do not have a drinking problem" are entirely different statements. The more they know, the better they can position your situation with the FAA and have the right understanding and right expectations.
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Fly35 -- What @bflynn said here is a good way to go about it.

At the moment, you have no information if you need to bring the equivalent of the Library of Congress with you, or a simple 1 page item from the police department. And going in for a medical without knowing what the FAA Medical folks are going to want to see can really wrap you around the axle.

When consulting with the AME, if he says he isn't sure and will need to consult with Oklahoma City (where FAA Medical resides), then ask him to do that. You're paying the fee to find out the right information.

If he is not willing to make the phone call, then you may have found the wrong AME even if you did have all of the required information.

Definition of a Really Good AME:
  • Is a pilot himself (or at least was at one time)
  • Isn't an AME just because it sounds cool to have the additional accreditation on his shingle.
  • Is a Senior AME (with a closet full of BTDT T-shirts) who will be a true advocate for his airmen.
  • Has the OKC Offices on speed dial
  • Knows the all of the Senior examiners (the 5 or 6 big swinging Docs) by first name.
  • Prefers to take charge and issue the more challenging certificates "in office" rather than defer and let someone else "deal with it".
  • Is not afraid to use said speed dial to reach out to said senior examiner and obtain the information necessary to complete the "in office" issuance.

PS. We are soooo happy that you stopped by to ask your question before you went for your first medical. We enjoy helping folks who want to take ownership of the situation and get it solved.

The opposite, whom we tire of quickly, are those who don't admit they have a problematic history with alcohol, go to the AME, get deferred/denied, and then come here to whine to us about why the FAA is keeping them from their "dream".

From the sound of things, you're definitely not the latter.
 
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Actually, some of my best AMEs were not pilots at all (or at least not anymore). One was an retired US Navy Flight Surgeon, the other if he ever was a pilot or had a medical, he no longer likely qualified to hold one himself. What it takes is someone who knows the FAA system, the certification details, and gives a hoot.

The absolute turd of an AME who screwed up my medical was a pilot but he just couldn't be bothered with pilots (and he turned out to be a liar I found out to boot). Subsequent talking to Dr. C years later suggested the guy probably would have had his designation pulled if the FAA found out what he was doing.
 
Intersting. Didn’t think this could possibly get me denied a 3rd class medical.
 
Fly35 said:
Intersting. Didn’t think this could possibly get me denied a 3rd class medical.
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Keep in mind that the FAA isn't just looking at the individual incident(s). They are looking for patterns and the possibility that the applicant has a tolerance for alcohol. Tolerance means that the applicant must consume more, and have a higher resulting BAC, in order to feel the desired effects.

That the applicant only got caught once or twice .... the FAA can't tell if that was just singular events (the applicant is really a teetotaller but tied one on at the wedding), or if the applicant is a habitual consumer. So they must set a particular line in the sand standard that catches the habituals, and puts the "occasionals" on notice that if they want to play in the aviation sandbox, they must change lifestyles and prove sobriety.

If you haven't done so already, look back through all of the alcohol related threads in this forum over the recent years. That bit of homework might help enlighten you as to what the FAA is wanting to know and what they have to say about it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Keep in mind that the FAA isn't just looking at the individual incident(s). They are looking for patterns and the possibility that the applicant has a tolerance for alcohol. Tolerance means that the applicant must consume more, and have a higher resulting BAC, in order to feel the desired effects.

That the applicant only got caught once or twice .... the FAA can't tell if that was just singular events (the applicant is really a teetotaller but tied one on at the wedding), or if the applicant is a habitual consumer. So they must set a particular line in the sand standard that catches the habituals, and puts the "occasionals" on notice that if they want to play in the aviation sandbox, they must change lifestyles and prove sobriety.

If you haven't done so already, look back through all of the alcohol related threads in this forum over the recent years. That bit of homework might help enlighten you as to what the FAA is wanting to know and what they have to say about it.
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Ok will do. So is it safe to submit the online form then do a consulting appt without giving confirmation code. Is this required to have an appt?
 
Fly35 said:
Ok will do. So is it safe to submit the online form then do a consulting appt without giving confirmation code. Is this required to have an appt?
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To confirm... the code is required for the AME (or his staff) to go into the FAA system and switch the 8500-8 form to a "live exam". Often the staff is asking for the code so they can print out the paper copy.

However, if you bring the paper copy with you, minus the confirmation code, then you are supplying what the AME asked his staff to print off. You might need to remind the staff that this is a consultation visit, not a live exam, therefore surrendering the code isn't necessary.

The print out includes not only the "front" page of information that you filled out, but the additional blocks on the second page that the AME is filling in. If this was a live exam, the notes he writes there are transcribed on to the electronic version that was turned live when the code was entered.

Just about all of the AME's and their staff ask for the code when you check in then make the exam "live" before you see the doctor.

But the really awesome AME's wait until the end of the exam before they switch the exam to "live". So if something bad is found, it can be addressed without jeopardizing the airman's flight privileges.

Unfortunately, the really awesome AME's are in the minority when compared to the general AME population.


Big hint: After you fill out and save the online MedXpress entry, not only print it out to paper, but also save it to a PDF file. Once you click the final submit button, you cannot go back and retrieve what you inputted. You only can start with a blank page. Having the PDF version makes it easy to copy/paste items into the blank page.

The above also works for future submissions for your next AME visit. Alleviating the need to remember each, and every, and every, doctor visit (when and why) or medication. Just copy and paste the information.

If you never take action on the individual MedXpress submission (aka never turn in the confirmation code), the electrons get recycled in 60 days (aka the entries go *poof* and the submission can no longer be retrieved).
 
flyingron said:
Actually, some of my best AMEs were not pilots at all (or at least not anymore). One was an retired US Navy Flight Surgeon, the other if he ever was a pilot or had a medical, he no longer likely qualified to hold one himself. What it takes is someone who knows the FAA system, the certification details, and gives a hoot.

The absolute turd of an AME who screwed up my medical was a pilot but he just couldn't be bothered with pilots (and he turned out to be a liar I found out to boot). Subsequent talking to Dr. C years later suggested the guy probably would have had his designation pulled if the FAA found out what he was doing.
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Exactly. I have bad stories about a couple I used. And some good stories, too. Including one in the DC area that gave incorrect info about what is now required for hypertension. Others also had bad experiences with him in later visits - almost as if something changed over time. And one near San Antonio that should have had is designation pulled (also had a very good one in San Antonio, and a very good one in Cincinnati).
 
Fly35 said:
Ok will do. So is it safe to submit the online form then do a consulting appt without giving confirmation code. Is this required to have an appt?
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I would not submit the online form until after you talk with the doctor. You might discover something new.

If you get it wrong, you never give the code to the doctor and the form gets deleted after 90 days. But I'm sure you don't want to wait.
 
bflynn said:
I would not submit the online form until after you talk with the doctor. You might discover something new.

If you get it wrong, you never give the code to the doctor and the form gets deleted after 90 days. But I'm sure you don't want to wait.
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No need to wait. Just use another email address to create a new form.
 
bflynn said:
I would not submit the online form until after you talk with the doctor. You might discover something new.

If you get it wrong, you never give the code to the doctor and the form gets deleted after 90 days. But I'm sure you don't want to wait.
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There's also no reason to even fill in the form for a consult. Talk to the AME about questions you have, ask for recommendations before going near the form.
 
Appreciate all the info guys. I haven’t had the time to research the forum much. Is there a Dr on the forum that could chime in? Or maybe they already have...I just can’t imagine it being that big of a deal but...it is the feds so that’s why I asked. I have “no” answers for everything but that 18w. Just routine physicals for my employment.
 
It should not be a big deal, but I have read of the FAA paper pushers getting this wrong before. If it uses the word alcohol, they immediately assume 18v must be yes. Medicals have been held up because of this exact situation being misunderstood. You could send this in and get a letter back a month later informing you that things are on hold until you complete an alcohol dependence screening and go on probation, have random alcohol screenings weekly and attend AA meeting for a few years. I say this only because it has happened.

It is worth paying $100 for a consult to ensure this is handled the right way. Never take chances on your medical. Especially if you cannot get the court records.
 
AggieMike88 said:
But the really awesome AME's wait until the end of the exam before they switch the exam to "live". So if something bad is found, it can be addressed without jeopardizing the airman's flight privileges.

Unfortunately, the really awesome AME's are in the minority when compared to the general AME population.
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Technically, they are prohibited from conducting an examination as you described. From the AME guide:

Examiners must not begin the exam until they have imported the MedXPress application into AMCS and have verified the identity of the applicant.
 
Brad Z said:
Technically, they are prohibited from conducting an examination as you described. From the AME guide:

Examiners must not begin the exam until they have imported the MedXPress application into AMCS and have verified the identity of the applicant.
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But they can do a "consultation", and if all seems well, you can give them the application number and they can conduct the examination. There are some that won't do consultations, avoid those.
 
Just a bit more advice as someone who has had to do some of this - While you wait for your consult with Dr. Bruce or another senior AME, you can go ahead and start gathering the requirements:

- Call the police and/or city/town/village court where your offense was. Ask how to track down the records. The FAA will want to see them if they exist, OR a letter from the authority in charge of such records specifically stating that they "no longer exist" if they dont. You want that on letterhead and signed. You might need to make a few calls, and even write some letters to get this documentation.

- Pull your full DMV/driving record from every state you have lived in. Each state is a bit different, but in NY where I live I had to fill out a form, pay a small fee, and they mail the records to me. This was different than the easy and cheaper online "quick check", you want the full legal record back to forever.

These things took a couple weeks total for me, and you can go ahead and get started on that now because if the FAA asks you likely will need them. Nice to have anyway and not expensive.
 
Brad Z said:
Technically, they are prohibited from conducting an examination as you described. From the AME guide:

Examiners must not begin the exam until they have imported the MedXPress application into AMCS and have verified the identity of the applicant.
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Now that BasicMed is an option, I wonder if it's kosher to go in for a BasicMed exam, which is basically similar to a 3rd class, and tests pretty much the same things, and then after discussing everything with the AME, if in his opinion you qualify for 3rd class, "convert" the exam to a standard 3rd class physical, and issue you in the office. (That's assuming you've filled out the MedXPress as well before coming in.)

My guess is no, but I have to wonder how many AMEs who do BasicMed exams have or are willing to do that.
 
Yes, usually nothing is found in the actual "physical" examination that is surprising to the pilot (OK, I'm going to omit the time that I was on the Atkins diet and the AME used a 7-way stick that noted my ketone spilling while supposedly checking for glucose), the devil is in going over the patient history questions (#18). A consultation there isn't really an examination. If they do go through with the exam, the doc has to review the real answers on the live form rather than the paper one or whatever the applicant was showing during the consultation.
 
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