PTS emergency descent...how?

James331 said:
Why do you guys want to do a steep spiral at vne? Are you angry at your airframe?

Go talk to a large drop zone.

Small turns, if needed, wings level, vne (or vle), try to keep the engine warm with mixture, cowl flaps etc.

Slips ain't going to help much, and a slip near vne is sure as heck not healthy for the airframe.

If a CFI was Doug steep spirals or slips at, or near, vne at my old school, he'd be toast and best not try to EVER use me as a reference.
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Because in a fire, the goal is save your skin, not the tin.
 
James331 said:
Why do you guys want to do a steep spiral at vne? Are you angry at your airframe?

Go talk to a large drop zone.

Small turns, if needed, wings level, vne (or vle), try to keep the engine warm with mixture, cowl flaps etc.

Slips ain't going to help much, and a slip near vne is sure as heck not healthy for the airframe.

If a CFI was Doug steep spirals or slips at, or near, vne at my old school, he'd be toast and best not try to EVER use me as a reference.
Click to expand...

I should clarify. We actually did the simulated emergency descents at Va, but I am under the impression that Vne would be a healthy consideration for an actual fire.
 
Wings level near vne, clean, most cessnas will do a mile a minute.

For a fire, ain't going to make much of a diffrence, for training don't beat the plane by slipping and yanking and banking or other silliness.

I flew jumpers for a large DZ for a while, where getting down quick of huge importance.

Wings level, vne, clean
 
Also, looking more closely at the AFH quoted in this thread, it definitely references Vne and "maximum allowable airspeed." However, I'm not sure it is recommending a "spiral" or a "steep spiral."

It says "when initiating the descent, a bank of approximately 30 to 45 degrees should be established to maintain positive load factors..." and that descents should be "made in a turn" to check for traffic and look for a landing site.

A continuous bank seems like it would be the same as a spiral. On the other hand, the illustrated descent doesn't look like a spiral to me.

Same thing?

AFH_Emergency_Descents.jpg
 
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Note that it recommends the turn for simulation purposes, not for RL EDs
 
Jaybird180 said:
Note that it recommends the turn for simulation purposes, not for RL EDs
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Thanks. I didn't pay much attention to that before.

On the other hand, one of the stated reasons for the recommended turn is to look around for an emergency landing area, which would still be appropriate for a real emergency.

I'm still unclear on this.
 
James331 said:
Wings level near vne, clean, most cessnas will do a mile a minute.
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6000 ft/min? I think not. But you'll still do a lot more when banked.

For a fire, ain't going to make much of a diffrence,
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A little time can make a lot of difference when you're on fire -- just ask the Swissair crew.


Oh, wait, you can't ask them - they're dead.
 
Several people have said that the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH) lists three different methods and the applicant should be prepared to explain to the DPE why one is chosen over the other two.

I'm probably an idiot, but I can't seem to find three distinct methods in the AFH section shown above.

I can see two methods, i.e. a full flaps descent near Vfe ("slow and dirty"), or a no flaps descent near some higher speed such as Va, Vno, or even Vne ("fast and clean"), but I just don't get the reference to "three" methods.

Can somebody list the three different methods you're seeing in the AFH?
 
Ron Levy said:
6000 ft/min? I think not. But you'll still do a lot more when banked.

A little time can make a lot of difference when you're on fire -- just ask the Swissair crew.


Oh, wait, you can't ask them - they're dead.
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First a mile is just over 5200' and I said just shy of a mile a minute

Second, after doing quite a bit of this stuff, I can tell you that a 206 can do damn close to a mile a minute, a C208 does even better. Do rapid decents 10-15 times a day from 13k all the way up to 17.9, 6 days a week, and then you can chime in :yesnod:

Third, teaching new PPLs to go into VNE spirals is a dumb idea on, oh so many fronts.

Also spirals don't make THAT much of a difference.

Add to that, the altitude most PPLs are flying, the amount of time it takes for them to establish into that bank and pitch, will probably kill any time saved in the spiral.

From a cruse setting, power out, nose down,
pitch for just shy of VNE, manage engine, keep the heat in for practice, ICO etc for real life. Keep it simple and safe.
 
When towing gliders I've tried both the nose over and the spiral (AFTER glider release!!) and the latter gets me down waaaay quicker than the former without flirting with VNE! I'll stick to the spiral which offers the added advantage of surveying all the surrounding areas for an emergency landing spot.
 
Ron Levy said:
6000 ft/min? I think not. But you'll still do a lot more when banked.

A little time can make a lot of difference when you're on fire -- just ask the Swissair crew.


Oh, wait, you can't ask them - they're dead.
Click to expand...

Or ask the guy who came down under the chute in the Cirrus on fire.
Or the J7 DC9 guys.

Fire, you want down now. I have a friend who had a fuel line rupture in the Navion. They got out of the aircraft just in time to watch it become fully involved.

I'm not even going to wait for an airport.
 
I just did emergency descents for fire in flight today with my CFI in a 172M. Steep bank to the left, full opposite rudder, pitch for close to Vne (still air). Holy crap what a ride dropping sideways at 160+ MPH. I'll make sure to meet my DPE and see what he/she wants on the checkride, but this method makes a lot of sense with the slip directing smoke to the right and controlling airspeed with the VSI pegged.
 
I opined on this 4 years ago and will say it again -

45 deg bank away from fire [if it matters]
rudder to keep it straight
throttle to idle
prop full forward if you got it
mixture to also idle cutoff - you want the motor running in case you need it

Use the amount of rudder to steer directionally - keep the airplane sideways to keep the speed from coming on.
 
Switch to a Cirrus for the checkride. When he says there is an engine fire what do you do? You say pull the mixture to cutoff, pull the throttle to idle, turn off the ignition (make sure aux/boost pump is off) and if above 1000ft AGL glide to an open field and pull the red handle.
 
Just practiced this today with CFI in a Cherokee 140/160. Technique he taught me is slow to Vfe, full flaps, nose down 45deg banking turn at Vfe and look for a landing spot. Aim for key point, Level out about 3-400 feet AGL slow to 85 and land it. From 3000' AGL (practice alt) this gives maybe a minute and a half tops to the ground. I want to try the Vne spiral, and Vne slip methods. Seems like they would work better from higher altitudes.
 
citizen5000 said:
Switch to a Cirrus for the checkride. When he says there is an engine fire what do you do? You say pull the mixture to cutoff, pull the throttle to idle, turn off the ignition (make sure aux/boost pump is off) and if above 1000ft AGL glide to an open field and pull the red handle.
Click to expand...

Didn't work so well over Boulder, CO.
 
I'm thinking the spiral accelerates the descent - picture the lift vector; wings level vs steep bank - you're killing/wasting unwanted lift. This is good. In our172 I'd use 60 degrres. . .
 
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