Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?

[ChrisK]

Do any real commanders and brass become a part of CAP or is it mainly those that want the military themed boy scouts? Looked up the head guy and doesn't appear to have any actual service... But a ton of ribbons..

Bit of each.

 

[denverpilot]

Yes. Most of them are smart enough to stay out of the job title, though.

At least at the local level.

We had a number of former and active or reserve military brass around, but few were crazy enough to accept a Commander title.

I know of at least two Majors and a Full Bird that I knew personally. Two of which had seen combat.

They didn't ask for CAP rank but some got the rank bumps allowed anyway when commanders found out their background.

Often they'd accept tough jobs for a while but would try to train replacements and get out of them as soon as they could.

They worked on things from within, and were often the voice of reason in political debates in staff meetings.

Most knew to keep their powder dry until needed.

Quite a few senior enlisted too. Folks who could appreciate the missions while chuckling at the ginned up military structure.

Those folks often were the ones who'd jump around ranks and just call whoever needed calling on the phone and figure out what SNAFU had happened as something played "telephone" and got the message all screwed up by the time it hit the squadron.

Smart commanders used both to keep things sane.

 

[denverpilot]

I knew one former real military brass person who had a "special assignment" just to keep an eye on a particularly mentally challenged member and make sure they weren't about to break something or cause a political nightmare.

Haha. Not kidding. Back to that "have to accept all volunteers" thing.

I just remembered that one.

He let me know quietly one day when he needed someone to "stint" him while he went to get something else done during a meeting.

I was the "stuckee" he chose to watch the guy quietly for an hour or so.

Thankfully the dude didn't break anything or cause any major political fallout during my hour of secret babysitting.

(And no Murphey or anyone else who knows what my squadron was, I won't tell who I was watching nor why. Don't ask. I was glad to survive the hour and not have a really ticked former military brass friend ready to put a boot in my butt.)

 

[airdale]

Do any real commanders and brass become a part of CAP or is it mainly those that want the military themed boy scouts? Looked up the head guy and doesn't appear to have any actual service... But a ton of ribbons..

It varies. The real military guys have little interest in the boy scout aspect. One of our top guys, former wing (state) commander, is a retired AF C130 pilot and retired training manager for one of the major airlines. Not necessarily military, but the wing has a number of ATPs flying line pilot jobs for majors. Some, but fewer, flying for the regionals. I think the regional guys tend to be younger with kids, less well paid, with tougher schedules, and less in need of what can be a fairly demanding hobby. So not so likely to join CAP.

 

[jaybee]

CAP does have a bad habit of identifying a need, making a curriculum for it that goes way overboard, and then not having the manpower to actually execute the training in a reasonable time.

Soooo.... it's exactly like the Air Force then

My main reason for leaving the Air Force this past year was sick and tired of hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of briefings written to the lowest common denominator

 

[weilke]

Actually it was January 2015.
The person above me joined in 2012.

It is a year since last post, but it was the most relevant post I could find on the subject and I saw some of the contributors were online and hoped maybe I would get some encouragement on one director or another.

I encourage you to look for a wing/squadron that fits your interests and style. You seem to live in an area where a 10 mile drive in either direction can get you to VA, MD, WV or PA. CAP units in either state are part of the respective wing which sets some of the tone. Beyond that, it is the local squadron and the personalities who lead it that determine whether people get all silly about uniforms etc. I found that a senior squadron with actual flying missions fits my interests better than a composite squadron without such a mission ;-)

 

[SkyDog58]

Maybe what needs to happen is a bifurcation of CAP into two different organizations.

The Cadet Program and its quasi military aspects can remain under the Air Force. If kids want to wear uniforms and march and play junior airman, fine.

The Senior Program with its emphasis on flying for SAR and other emergency responses can be placed under FEMA or another appropriate agency. Then it can have absolutely no resemblance to the Air Force. You'd probably get many more pilots interested in serving then.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe what needs to happen is a bifurcation of CAP into two different organizations.



The Cadet Program and its quasi military aspects can remain under the Air Force. If kids want to wear uniforms and march and play junior airman, fine.



The Senior Program with its emphasis on flying for SAR and other emergency responses can be placed under FEMA or another appropriate agency. Then it can have absolutely no resemblance to the Air Force. You'd probably get many more pilots interested in serving then.

The "problem" with that is it'd be the end of the organization. Once CAPs budget isn't separate and voted to them directly by Congress, no amount of good-willed volunteers would be able to protect it from some bureaucrat with all day to come up with a "better plan" to spend the money and a massive growth / creation of a paid government agency to do the missions.

USAF had tried that a million times. "Just tack CAP's budget to our 'training' budget and we'll leave it alone but have better oversight, Congress! Really!"

You and I both know that money would disappear into USAF so fast it'd never be seen again.

They've even tried to pull it into the Air Guard budget.

At least for now, Congress still sees through those requests for what they are, a land grab by some General bucking for another star. And Congress so far, still wants an independently funded civil organization.

USAF is mostly annoyed that they have to allocate people to oversee it as best as I can tell. They'd much rather just take the budget and run with it themselves and turn it into a much more massive and expensive branch of USAF.

You probably don't really want to pay for that. It wouldn't be cheap. Not at all. Sure they'd probably come pull your ass out of the wreckage in an hour, but it'd cost billions with a B before the USAF brass was done building it.

It's probably about as effective as it can get with volunteer civilians on the search side of things, money wise. We all work pretty darn cheap. And have a vested interest in pulling fellow pilot's butts out of the fire.

 

[weilke]

Maybe what needs to happen is a bifurcation of CAP into two different organizations.

The Cadet Program and its quasi military aspects can remain under the Air Force. If kids want to wear uniforms and march and play junior airman, fine.

The Senior Program with its emphasis on flying for SAR and other emergency responses can be placed under FEMA or another appropriate agency. Then it can have absolutely no resemblance to the Air Force. You'd probably get many more pilots interested in serving then.

I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be part of DHS. It wouldn't take more than 2 years for all the planes to be sold to a connected contractor at pennies on the dollar and all SAR money to be handed out to the states in the form of block grants (so they can then hire the contractor for $3,000/hr to do CAPs work).

I doubt that the air-force would shed a tear if the senior side of CAP did away with the pseudo military structure. They deal with contractors who perform services (including flying services) to support the air force already. None of them has a command structure, they provide services, turn in reports and get paid.

 

[Sundancer]

I stepped away, after flying for CAP about 14 years - no one thing, just lot's of small and middlin' things. I think happiness in CAP depends on your personal tolerance level for nonsense, combined with your unit's (and Wing's) level of BS embracement.

Typically, a lot of missions and good deals are reserved for the good ol' boys, or inner circle. You can break in, if you're geographically positioned correctly, and have lot's of spare time. They tend to discount time spent getting and staying qualified as a Mission Pilot - the ground-pounders think you should wear other, usually pointless, hats, like squadron logistics officer, etc.

There can be some interesting flying - like acting as targets for air defense, and the aerial photo missions can be fun. But the prep is usually way, way too overdone, and the frequency not often enough. Being ex-USAF, enough was enough, IRT the BS

 

[denverpilot]

Sundancer hit on my "problem" in CAP besides the crazy engineering Comm work...

When it came down to whether I wanted to go jump through about 200 hoops to just do a Form 5 ride or just grab the keys to my own airplane from the flight bag and go actually fly and actually stay current in something other than this week's click stream of how to make WIMRS do something, my answer was always clear. Grab the keys and head for my hangar.

 

[OkieAviator]

I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be part of DHS. It wouldn't take more than 2 years for all the planes to be sold to a connected contractor at pennies on the dollar and all SAR money to be handed out to the states in the form of block grants (so they can then hire the contractor for $3,000/hr to do CAPs work).

We have quite a bit of work with DHS and we don't have any bill rates of $3,000 an hour or even remotely close to that.

 

[MAKG1]

Sundancer hit on my "problem" in CAP besides the crazy engineering Comm work...

When it came down to whether I wanted to go jump through about 200 hoops to just do a Form 5 ride or just grab the keys to my own airplane from the flight bag and go actually fly and actually stay current in something other than this week's click stream of how to make WIMRS do something, my answer was always clear. Grab the keys and head for my hangar.

To be fair, I found the initial Form 5 to be a total PITA. Renewals and additions were trivial. And the Air Force even paid for my last one (sometimes they do, sometimes not). Basically, you have to maintain relationships with check pilots. They are basically CFIs working for free, and it's essential to treat it as such.

Flight release was a chore until I figured out who was always available and who wasn't. The big hint is that any release officer in the state can do it. I try to choose those close to the airplane, but it's not always possible.

 

[genna]

This is a newbie perspective.

I joined CAP(got my ID) in the beginning of October. At a composite squadron in MD

General training was pretty simple, but time consuming. I have been attending all the meetings for now as this is not a big drain of my time and I am still learning the squadron. That will likely change in the future. We have 5 active pilots and the group is pretty cool... So far, I have not experienced too much BS, but I'm sure that will change as it happens in any large organization. Sure, there are silliness associated with it having "military structure" For now, all they want from me is to fly as much as I can because the plane has to be used.

Form 5 was somewhat of a pain, but done by end of November.

Now I can and do fly when I can or want. Given the time of the year, I have 2 solo flights so far and a few as Observer/Scanner(free). It's not free flying for missions as I am not yet a mission pilot, but it's perfect for keeping current and training @ about $60/wet with current fuel prices. They have a very well maintained and nicely equipped C172P/180

WMIRS(mission scheduling) is painfully overcomplicated, but once you get used to it it's fine. Flight release has been so far pretty easy.

My main goal for now is to use/force me to use the plane for keeping current. I don't own a plane and if I did, I would probably not be joining CAP, but for me, this is a very reasonable way to force me to stay on top of my proficiency for very little money. So when I get into my FBO's rented C172 for that XC flight ones every few months, they don't yell at me for being not current and I feel right at home in it every time.


For a low time pilot like me, there is a lot of valuable information from other pilots and just a general sense that I am doing this flying for some better reason than just burning AVGAS at $150/hour.

 

[weilke]

My main goal for now is to use/force me to use the plane for keeping current. I don't own a plane and if I did, I would probably not be joining CAP, but for me, this is a very reasonable way to force me to stay on top of my proficiency for very little money. So when I get into my FBO's rented C172 for that XC flight ones every few months, they don't yell at me for being not current and I feel right at home in it every time.

Good. Fly lots of hours, become a mission pilot, give O-rides. Be available if there is ever a mission. Dont get sucked into squadron politics and politely decline if they want to make you 'assistant director of Jello safety'.

 

[denverpilot]

Good. Fly lots of hours, become a mission pilot, give O-rides. Be available if there is ever a mission. Dont get sucked into squadron politics and politely decline if they want to make you 'assistant director of Jello safety'.

ROFL. ^^^ this.

 

[murphey]

The one that really gets my goat is the G1000 ground school. It has to be the Cessna school or it doesn't count. And no one wants to teach it 'cause it's a PITA, especially the IFR half.

Colorado is running the G1000 ground school followed by flight time in early January. Rumor hath it that all aircraft will be G1000 in the [whenever] future. I write software for GPS systems (the big systems...) but that means nothing around here.

Because I don't live with a cell phone or pager stuck in my ear, by the time I hear about a training flight, it's filled. SAREXs? Get real. Money runs out by 1 pm on Saturday, so anyone who signs up for a Sat PM or Sunday flight is SOL.

Which is why I've been an AP trainee for almost 2 years (I'll be required to take ground soon - again), an MO trainee for over a year, yada yada yada....

Fortunately, I didn't join CAP to fly. I have an airplane, don't need theirs. But I would like to get signed off to do Cadet O-Rides. Not gonna happen. I refuse to ever get in an airplane with the squadron "chief pilot/check pilot" again.

On the other hand, for the past 2 years, all 4 of my high school CyberPatriot teams have been 1, 2 or 3 at State level. This year, I expect one (maybe 2 of the 6) will do well at Regionals and have a chance at the Finals.

No, I don't wear a uniform. I don't even own a uniform other than the blue polo shirt.

 

[Maverick]

I did some thread searching as I thought this would've been discussed already, but couldn't find much, so here goes (feel free to just link another thread if one covers this):

Should I join the CAP? What's all involved? I have done a bit of research and talked a bit with some CAP guys at my work, and it all seems to indicate that it's an almost free way to get some good flight time. Due to this, alarm bells are ringing in my head, screaming that this is too good to be true; If it were actually true, why wouldn't it be a much more talked about opportunity and be so easy to join? So, what are the actual pros/cons of joining? (In particular the cons...)

Thanks!

With there being over 300 replies to this thread I am not going to read them all so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. I was a member of the CAP for about 10 years throughout the 1980s. Things have probably changed to some degree but this is my take on membership.

First of all if your interest is in free flying time then I would say forget it. The free flying time that I have knowledge of is mission time, either actual or training. By training I mean an exercise that is state wide under the watchful eye of the Air Force Liaison officer. On those missions pilots would pay for everything out of their pockets and then submit forms for reimbursement base on fuel burned and hours flown. The reimbursement was for fuel expense and some maintenance expense factored into the fuel reimbursement.

Membership in the CAP is a commitment. Some people are far more committed than others and because of that individual units vary greatly. Unless there has been a big change there are three types of units as follows:

1) Cadet Squadrons whose primary mission is the cadet program. These squadrons need experienced adults who can teach the cadets in aerospace education and plan activities to support that mission.

2) Composite Squadrons that do the same job as the cadet squadrons but with the added responsibilities for emergency services missions. These squadrons typically have a larger adult membership than the cadet squadrons do.

3) Adult Squadron whose primary mission is emergency services. Forgive me but I have forgotten the official name of these units.

Depending on the state you live in the missions will vary. As an example Alaska will have a lot more SAR missions than a very populous state such as Michigan. Squadrons will vary in their commitment and leadership. I was a commander of a cadet squadron for 5 years and later became a group commander over seeing a number of squadrons. When I took over that group I had to close two failing squadrons that did not have the membership or leadership to be effective. I also combined two other squadrons in an attempt to make one viable unit.

I have found that people join the CAP for different reasons. Some are attracted by the uniform and see it as a substitute for some lack of achievement in their lives. These are not the sort that unit commanders should be recruiting. This is one of the reasons that the Air Force has pushed for more distinctive uniforms between the CAP and the Air Force. When I was active there was very little difference between the uniforms.

I really enjoyed my time with the CAP and the only reason I left was because I started my own business that required all of my time. While I was active with the CAP I estimate that I worked 40 hours on my job and another 40 hours per week with the CAP, all on my own dime. I personally found the time I spent with the CAP to be very rewarding and I have fond memories of my time with them and the people I was associated with.

CAP units do not have any funding other than what they can raise on their own. The reimbursements for missions came from the Air Force when they were authorized missions. CAP is a volunteer organization.

If you are thinking of joining you need to ask yourself what you can bring to the party and what you can expect to get out of your membership. Free flying time is a very small part of membership.

If you are still interested then I would urge you to take a look at what local units there are in your area and check them out. See if this is something you want to do. But please be productive if you decide to join. The CAP needs good people who can bring something to the party.

Good Luck and I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

 

[murphey]

3) Adult Squadron who's primary mission is emergency services. Forgive me but I have forgotten the official name of these units.

Senior Squadron

CAP units do not have any funding other than what they can raise on their own. The reimbursements for mission came from the Air Force when they were authorized missions. CAP is a volunteer organization.

These days CAP has MOU/LTA (Memos of understanding or letters of agreement) with up to 40 different organizations. For example, CAP in Colorado is part of the State Firewatch program, arrangements with various counties (all SAR in Colorado is run by the Sheriff of the individual county), FEMA, etc. Other than individual training flights (some are out of our personal pockets), funding is provided by the requested organization. It may be down the road after receipts are filed (back to WMIRS hassles) but still reimbursed.

 

[MAKG1]

No, Jean, it hasn't changed much from what you describe.

Mainly, there are a lot more G1000 aircraft around. But the Form 91 check still has us performing visual searches by pilotage (though it sounds kinda silly, it was a rather surprising confidence builder to be able to find and execute a parallel search 30 miles from base with the GPS turned off).

FYI, adult squadrons are called "senior squadrons." I wouldn't add much more to your post.

There are a lot more electronic records now. Some squadrons still keep the piles of paper, but it's becoming rarer. It does beg the question, what happens if we provide relief for an earthquake, and there is no Internet? None of the exercises seem to train that.

 

[Palmpilot]

To whom it may concern: the possessive form of "who" is "whose," not "who's."

(grumble grumble)

 

[Kritchlow]

Other than the occasional search & rescue missions, what other specific duties or functions is the CAP responsible for?

 

[Palmpilot]

Mainly, there are a lot more G1000 aircraft around.

CAP provides a lot more aircraft of any kind than they used to. When I joined in the early 1990s, CAP-provided aircraft were scarce enough that many sorties were flown using member-provided aircraft, and we didn't have to get wing commander approval like we do now.

 

[MAKG1]

Other than the occasional search & rescue missions, what other specific duties or functions is the CAP responsible for?

Disaster relief, counter drug, aerospace education, outreach, and cadet programs.

I can't tell you much about CD, as I'm not involved at all. Disaster relief is the fastest growing part, and most recently has included a fair amount of airborne photography related to damage assessment. Locally, there have been several water surveys run for the state, and wildfire damage surveys for FEMA.

 

[Maverick]

To whom it may concern: the possessive form of "who" is "whose," not "who's."

(grumble grumble)

I am so sorry for the grammatical error.

 

[Maverick]

Senior Squadron

That's what I thought but then I used the term adult so the OP would not think I was referring to a geriatric unit.

 

[ChrisK]

And the Air Force even paid for my last one (sometimes they do, sometimes not).

That is totally at the discretion of the DO / Wing CC and based on the size of your budget vs the number of pilots. Ohio pays for all F5/91 renewals. Member pays initial.

 

[Palmpilot]

I am so sorry for the grammatical error.

It's not just you; I've been seeing it a lot lately.

 

[Maverick]

It's not just you; I've been seeing it a lot lately.

Generally my spelling is very good but I do make mistakes. I never was an English major.

 

[Palmpilot]

Generally my spelling is very good but I do make mistakes. I never was an English major.

I wasn't an English major either, and I make mistakes too. When people point them out, I appreciate it, because I care about it. I recognize that not everyone does, and some people even go so far as to be offended by it, which is why I don't do it very often. What prompted me to speak up this time was not your post in particular, but a rash of posts I have seen recently, and my perception that it is being spelled incorrectly far more often than correctly.

 

[Maverick]

I wasn't an English major either, and I make mistakes too. When people point them out, I appreciate it, because I care about it. I recognize that not everyone does, and some people even go so far as to be offended by it, which is why I don't do it very often. What prompted me to speak up this time was not your post in particular, but a rash of posts I have seen recently, and my perception that it is being spelled incorrectly far more often than correctly.

Well for the record I am not offended.

 

[DavidWhite]

Sometimes they're terrorists and crash into buildings

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-small-plane-crashes-alaska-building-35991897

 

[ChrisK]

Sometimes they're terrorists and crash into buildings

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-small-plane-crashes-alaska-building-35991897

Dude.

 

[Palmpilot]

Well for the record I am not offended.

Good to hear!

 

[chartbundle]

SAREXs? Get real. Money runs out by 1 pm on Saturday, so anyone who signs up for a Sat PM or Sunday flight is SOL.

Interesting, out here(California) we often have the opposite problem. Many exercises get kept open for an additional week so that all the money can be used. I'm not sure if that's due to good planning, poor planning, more money or fewer interested people.

 

[Sundancer]

Once you're a Mission Pilot, I can't think of a reason to pay to fly a CAP airplane. If I was paying, I wasn't flying CAP aircraft, not near the end, anyway. There is (was?) usually money available for training missions in Maryland - but it can be a real PITA to get all the players aligned, stuff approved, etc. My wing sometimes (even often) couldn't give away free flying time.

As someone else noted, I just kinda started flying less and less with CAP, and more and more with my club. The CAP business processes were pretty badly designed, as was the software that had to be used for qualifications, missions, etc.

Again, there can be some fun flying, good folks, and if you hook up with the right squadron, and have some tolerance for bureaucracy, it might be worth your time.

It was routine to see a new guy (non-pilot), jump in, get qualified as a Scanner, then as an Observer, and then never, ever, get called to fly a mission. I'd feel a little bad for them, knowing that was likely to be the outcome - I would guess that on 90% of my "real" missions, the other seat was occupied by another Mission Pilot.

If you want to fly as a Mission Pilot, you should probaly hook up with a squadron that has an airplane - that'll improve your chances of getting "real" missions tremendously, at least in most wings. Once in, find out who comprises the good 'ole boy network, and make yourself available and visible to that clique. It's not so much that they're intentionally exclusive, just that they know each other and aren't too worried about distributing the missions (or aircraft) equitably.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't like to use Air Force funds to pay for personal training in the CAP aircraft.

I'm an MP, but I use funded missions to fill the airplane with full crews and train the crew to do something useful.

I generally don't use Air Force funds for landing practice or for practice approaches, except perhaps as a small tangent on a more useful mission (for instance, I flew one practice approach inbound from an electronic search recently -- the IAF was a few miles from the beacon location and I doubt I spent more than $5 of extra money on it -- and I still spent less than half my budget). If I'm going to spend taxpayer money, I insist on it benefiting the squadron or group somehow.

The exception is if we get money that is expressly to practice those things. But usually, it's "proficiency," which I take to mean improving teamwork within a whole aircrew.

 

[SkyDog58]

...

I have found that people join the CAP for different reasons. Some are attracted by the uniform and see it as a substitute for some lack of achievement in their lives. These are not the sort that unit commanders should be recruiting. This is one of the reasons that the Air Force has pushed for more distinctive uniforms between the CAP and the Air Force. When I was active there was very little difference between the uniforms.
...

Yeah from what I saw, the biggest uniform lovers and fruit salad whores in CAP were those who had no real military experience. Another group were the older ex AF guys who were trying to relive their glory days. I believe that CAP would be better off without the uniforms and AF emphasis.

 

[Kritchlow]

Well, I may be too old, but...

I think it's a worthwhile venture, and likely helps many people. I tip my hat to those who volunteer. That said, I would truly be embarrassed to somehow pretend I was a military guy, and that drives me off.

I saw one day at K???, young guys doing military drills on the ramp. I turned away in embarrassment.

 

[Palmpilot]

I saw one day at K???, young guys doing military drills on the ramp. I turned away in embarrassment.

If you're talking about cadets, that program has prepared more than a few young people for careers in the military.