paflyer
Final Approach
The CAP has since learned from that fiasco.....
NOW they put up TFR's over crash sites.....
But that means they know where the missing plane is, not the overall search area.
Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?
- Thread starter HighFlyingA380
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But that means they know where the missing plane is, not the overall search area.
ChrisK
En-Route
Inorite?
Exhibit # 1 your honor....
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20121125X95949&ntsbno=WPR13FA053&akey=1
This rancher was coming home from Montana... Was on flight following the entire time,
SLC lost him on radar as he crossed the Wyoming range.
Didn't show up at home or the Pinedale airport...
Buddy down there calls me about 2 hours later and asked for help in a search.
Local CAP starts their dog and pony show...
Puts up a 20 radius TFR from the last place he was on radar.. 40 mile circle..
...My private ranch / airport is 19.6 miles away...
So I call flight service and get a briefing,, was warned to not fly to my private airport cause it is in the TFR...
I politely ask what will it take.... FS says to call the CAP incident commander ( twitchel) in Laramie for approval to fly to my airport..
I call him up and say,,, I am going to 2WY3 from KJAC and if ya don't like it.. Tough,,, And hang up..
I take off, transponder on mode C and fly to my airport...
I can see over where the search is a heli and the CAP plane... Turns out they actually missed each other by a few feet from shear stupidity during one of the searches ( told to me be the pilot of the CAP plane a week or so later)...
Found the plane a few days later less then 1/8 mile from the last radar return...
I have been told the guy hit "nearest" on his 496 and was pointed straight at my airport , since it is on the FAA record and on the Garmin database.. he knew he was in trouble and wanted the closest airport to land at... He hit a tree top before he could fly out of that area...
Clearly , no one could save him as he died instantly,, but.. I am DAMN sure we could have found him faster.... And.. The CAP plane didn't find him either,, the heli did..... But the CAP plane got credit for the "find"....
airdale
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airdale
Data is not the plural of anecdote.
I'm sure he immediately recognized how important you were. Such an adult way to behave.
and probably you win a lot of Monday morning football games as well.
For grins, I just called AFRCC and talked to the duty officer. I asked him how often CAP requested TFRs for searches. He said that in his two years' experience at AFRCC, 100+ CAP searches, he has never seen one.
He said that they have done a few TFRs for military searches, like the missing 14-year-old boaters off Florida. The main reason for that one was that there were some rewards offered for finding the kids and people were getting in the way.
CAP is an imperfect organization and there's a lot about it that is hard to defend, but all your blustering, bold type, chest thumping and repetition is only muddying the waters. We get it, Ben. You don't like CAP. You can stop now.
A good illustration of what is wrong with the contrived training scenarios. Planes dont get lost in peoples backyards and if you are in a populated area, you have cell coverage at SAR altitudes. So why practice some 1940s guiding maneuvers if you can just call the coordinates (and the street address off google maps) to mission base ?
Not unique at all. Happens in every fire department and volunteer rescue squad.
The wing, right. Leaving it to the fox to distribute to the hens.
That duty officer fed you line of BS.......
The one I pointed out had a TFR.. The Mooney crash into the wind river range had a TFR, the crash in southern colo a couple years back had a TFR... And that are just three right off the top of my head.....
I have lost all trust in your comments now...
ChrisK
En-Route
Anyone know of a way to download historical notams?
My Google-FU is bad.
My Google-FU is bad.
airdale
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Actually your comment is a good illustration of someone who pops off without any real understanding of the issues. One of the considerations in designing training scenarios is that you don't want the ground teams driving for hours. So tasks involving ground teams are usually within 1/2 to 1 hour one-way from mission base. In this case, mission base was at the airport for a city of about 90,000, so the scenario writer did not take them all the way out into the weeds. The fact that the area was somewhat populated had nothing to do with the scenario. Whether lost comm is a high probability event or not, it is a fun and useful exercise for both the air crew and the ground team. A critical part of any volunteer organization is keeping people interested and engaged. Calling a ground team on a cell phone and giving them an address to visit is not a very interesting exercise.
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds about right...never seen one requested myself.
airdale
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Your assertion fails the smell test. He had no reason to tell me anything but his actual experience.
OK, that makes us even.... I have lost all trust in your comments now...
I thought SAREX scenarios are designed to achieve maximal readiness for the missions the wing may be called to perform. Thank you for filling me in that the training design is guided by making things 'interesting' for the participants. Real life SAR is boring with 100hrs of scanning to 10min of finding something.
The last SAREX i participated in with MD wing was a similar goat-rope without redeeming training qualities. If we ever loose a plane in Maryland, it is not in the backyard of a million $$ home in Hyattsville. It'll be in a marsh on the eastern shore or in the woods of Garrett county. So why in the world are we flying a search-grid over peoples back-yards and not a shoreline search in the marshes ? And if we locate something that looks like wreckage, we are not going to guide some cadets using smoke signals, we are probably going to call state police dispatch with the coordinates so the state police chopper can take a closer look and have a TFO rappel down to check whether there are survivors.
I thought it was 'train like you fight', not 'train so it's interesting'.
Hope you can...
TFR went up on 11-20 2012.. Stays up for 3 days..
And this one too had a TFR....
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20130305X54320&ntsbno=WPR13FA138&akey=1
Pilot was found outside the aircraft and frozen to death..
Not to beat it to death - like I said, I put CAP behind me two years back - but if you're worried about a qualified MP you "don't know" making a couple turns at pattern altitude . . .I'd say you might be harboring an elitist attitude, and/or have zero faith in the qualification process.
I do respect and appreciate the time I know you must invest in the organization - some of the "clique" guys put in a lot of time, as well, and that shouldn't be discounted. But the current culture probably can't sustain the MP pool going forward - either accept that a smaller group of pilots (and aircraft) will serve the needs, or bring some rigor and sound managment to the program.
The problem is that there is no metric to put a more objective handle on MP qualifications. There is certainly a difference between someone who is low-time and hasn't flown a single mission in anger and someone who has a lot more flying experience and flown several live missions in the past year. As a result, you see the clique system at work with crews from the in-crowd sent 1/2 way across the state when a live mission happens rather than the local squadron being called out.
airdale
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Opportunity knocks! Call your local ES guy and volunteer to help with the scenarios and taskings for the next SAREX. You'll learn some of the realities that have to be dealt with and the wing will probably get some improved training exercises.
We don't disagree. "a couple of turns at pattern altitude" is not an issue. However, that's not what the task required. The maneuvers themselves are more than traffic pattern stuff and the whole thing is a recipe for distracted driving/flying with a strong temptation to fly lower in order to guide more accurately.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The only spin I'd add is the "clique" of experienced, current, and available pilots is only part of the whole "clique." IMO the bulk of the morale damage is done when the politically-connected clique members get goodies that all wing pilots should have a fair shot at.
Wonder if that's the same pilot I refuse to fly with again. Actually, there are 2 - the latest finally made it to 250 hours and neither he nor the MO position (another pilot, more experienced) realized the electric trim cables had been hosed at annual. Obviously didn't pay attention during the preflight check. And bragged about it when the two of them "explained" how they handled the emergency at takeoff and in the pattern.
As to Airdale's comments about working with crews he knows & trusts - just how do you expect the other "less appealing" crews to get the experience?
I'm definitely not in the "good old boys network". I had dinner with our wing commander a couple months ago and pointed out interesting observations about our unit. Should be interesting to see how things play out over the next few months. Right now, all 3 airplanes are down for unknown amount of time (maintenance) so they aren't flying. I am...the advantage of owning my own airplane. 2-3 of them have "mentioned" they'd love to go flying with me sometime if I'd like company.....
(*chortle*)
Altho I'm in CAP (but not a CAP pilot, nor do I do much with Emergency Services altho I'm qualified) I once descriped it as Boy Scouts for Grownups...with ribbons instead of badges on the sash.
kgruber
Final Approach
Sorry.....to many posts to read.....so I won't.
But if you want to fly............become a pilot.
If you want to learn to march, and act and look silly,........join the CAP!
But if you want to fly............become a pilot.
If you want to learn to march, and act and look silly,........join the CAP!
airdale
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Well, to be accurate what I said was that I avoid assigning the more complicated tasks to crews I don't know. On a mission or a SAREX, everybody flies. My goal is to have zero airplanes on the ramp. And, as I get more familiar with more air crews, I learn more about their capabilities.
But absolutely you do point out a downside of that approach. It's the old "You can't get a job without experience." paradox. And I don't have an answer. But my personal tradeoff is that safety and mission effectiveness trumps this downside.
I've been a CAP member for over twenty years, and I've never even had the opportunity to march, let alone been required to do so.
ChrisK
En-Route
I've been a CAP member for over twenty years, and I've never even had the opportunity to march, let alone been required to do so.
Me too, though I've been given plenty of opportunities to act silly.
I have to admit that I have taken advantage of such opportunities far too many times, both in and out of Civil Air Patrol.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Gotta call BS on that one.
Never marched ever in CAP and any silliness was completely my own. They wouldn't have to teach me to do it.
99% of the time I was in the polo shirt "uniform" which didn't even look out of place sitting at my desk at work other than folks wondered why I wasn't wearing jeans, and had the aviator shirt combo if I thought I absolutely had to wear it for something along with a blue blazer that was already in the closet and never gets worn for anything anyway.
The black shoes were Sketchers that look dressy but aren't and will probably outlast me. They work well for funerals if I'm not in black cowboy boots.
Had some Army butter bar do a double take and almost salute the rank insignia on Camp Guernsey once. He was smarter than the average bear and didn't. I'd have just returned it and gone about my day if he had. Not worth explaining to them that they just saluted a civilian.
ChrisK
En-Route
Same with "thank you for your service". Best quick response is to say something nice back and move on. If the conversation goes on any longer, I explain in depth.
I guess not everyone does, but people are different and different people are everywhere.
MAKG1
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I've been offered "military discounts" a few times, while in the polo shirt (since it says US Air Force Auxiliary on it). I just explain I'm a civilian and if they want to give me a discount anyway, I won't turn it down. They usually can't, and that's fine.
The exception is the Federal hotel tax exemption while on Air Force orders, but that applies to civilian Feds as well. Hotel operators have a hard time with that, as a rule, even with the form in hand.
The exception is the Federal hotel tax exemption while on Air Force orders, but that applies to civilian Feds as well. Hotel operators have a hard time with that, as a rule, even with the form in hand.
ChrisK
En-Route
States often issue exemption certs to CAP Wings as well, though a lot of hotels in Ohio have stopped accepting them unless paid on a "company check".
MAKG1
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Collecting a tax and pocketing it isn't a crime in Ohio?
If they actually paid it to the state, you should be able to get it back on a tax return. Might suck if you were out of state, say for NESA.
ChrisK
En-Route
They have been saing that the exemption covers the organization, not the individual. Writing it off on my personal taxes would exempt it from income tax but i still have to pay the stupid luxury hotel tax.
I dunno. I will ask legal at some point. I just do not stay at hotels enough for it to be a priority.
Anyone going to NESA this year? I have not decided, but maybe we should have a little POA meet and greet.
denverpilot
Tied Down
By the way, when this thread came back from the dead, I knew it was a foregone conclusion that PoA would rip CAP a new one.
It always does.
There's some very independent folks here and a lot of dumb CAP squadrons out there. Mix that and it's going the same direction every time it comes up here. No doubt.
That anyone expects anything better of such a large volunteer organization that has no legal ability to say no to ANYONE, other than silly drama and a significant level of dumb (which can easily be avoided inside the organization for the most part), is as silly as the stuff some CAP members do. People love to *****.
And there are always going to be the stories of individual searches that went politically haywire and ****ed off locals. Nothing new there.
They're not always the norm, nor do the commanders always have the authority to not do some of those things, sometimes.
(The TFR example given is sad, but we've had TFRs go up over areas where the wildfire damage assessment was being done and idiots trying to make a name for their drone companies were flying over the same areas at the same altitudes as both rescue helicopters and CAP damage assessment flights. The natural response to that was an immediate request for a TFR and LE support to get the idiot on the ground with his photo toy to stop flying the thing, since he wasn't working with or coordinating flights with any of the FEMA officials. Wasn't CAP that requested it either. CAP had to ground flights until the FEMA folks make the airspace "safe" after a rescue helo reported nearly hitting the thing.)
Meanwhile ...
CAP still manages to save lives every year, and isn't an awful place to spend time if you have it to spend.
It isn't "free flying" and you'll have to actually work with some, shall we say, "entrenched" volunteers who will have to learn to trust you. All of which kinda makes sense, even if there's better ways to do it.
The cadet program also attracted many kids who probably wouldn't have any exposure to aviation at all, considering their parent's income levels, and at the cadet level anyway, uniforms made everyone "equal".
No kid had to feel jealous of the money'ed crowd.
In fact, if the kid were motivated and good at things, they'd probably be the rich kid's commanding sergeant. Not that they could make them do much.
But it created the military style environment where everyone starts at the same place, bottom of the heap.
Good cadet squadrons are pretty impressive to watch when they're doing stuff right.
Wasn't my cup of tea, but I would often end up working with cadets in Communications and we had a couple that were not only better qualified but also better radio operators than ANY of the seniors. I heard one was recently headed off to the Army to go into Communications and Satellite stuff on a significant scholarship of some sort. I won't claim any credit for that, the kid was a natural, but if I played a tiny part, so be it. He did the heavy lifting for himself. But I always enjoyed helping out the kids who had a clue and were interested in helping themselves in life.
There were also seniors who had just never been in job roles in life to have any contact with radio tech. They were often retirees who just wanted to help out somewhere in the community. They learned slower like we all do as we age, but knew how to take notes and were methodical about their approach to learning. They were often fun to see coming along also.
I do miss it a little bit, but like I said, I moved way too far out and have too many other evening priorities that make the time commitment way too high for me right now.
It always does.
There's some very independent folks here and a lot of dumb CAP squadrons out there. Mix that and it's going the same direction every time it comes up here. No doubt.
That anyone expects anything better of such a large volunteer organization that has no legal ability to say no to ANYONE, other than silly drama and a significant level of dumb (which can easily be avoided inside the organization for the most part), is as silly as the stuff some CAP members do. People love to *****.
And there are always going to be the stories of individual searches that went politically haywire and ****ed off locals. Nothing new there.
They're not always the norm, nor do the commanders always have the authority to not do some of those things, sometimes.
(The TFR example given is sad, but we've had TFRs go up over areas where the wildfire damage assessment was being done and idiots trying to make a name for their drone companies were flying over the same areas at the same altitudes as both rescue helicopters and CAP damage assessment flights. The natural response to that was an immediate request for a TFR and LE support to get the idiot on the ground with his photo toy to stop flying the thing, since he wasn't working with or coordinating flights with any of the FEMA officials. Wasn't CAP that requested it either. CAP had to ground flights until the FEMA folks make the airspace "safe" after a rescue helo reported nearly hitting the thing.)
Meanwhile ...
CAP still manages to save lives every year, and isn't an awful place to spend time if you have it to spend.
It isn't "free flying" and you'll have to actually work with some, shall we say, "entrenched" volunteers who will have to learn to trust you. All of which kinda makes sense, even if there's better ways to do it.
The cadet program also attracted many kids who probably wouldn't have any exposure to aviation at all, considering their parent's income levels, and at the cadet level anyway, uniforms made everyone "equal".
No kid had to feel jealous of the money'ed crowd.
In fact, if the kid were motivated and good at things, they'd probably be the rich kid's commanding sergeant. Not that they could make them do much.
But it created the military style environment where everyone starts at the same place, bottom of the heap.
Good cadet squadrons are pretty impressive to watch when they're doing stuff right.
Wasn't my cup of tea, but I would often end up working with cadets in Communications and we had a couple that were not only better qualified but also better radio operators than ANY of the seniors. I heard one was recently headed off to the Army to go into Communications and Satellite stuff on a significant scholarship of some sort. I won't claim any credit for that, the kid was a natural, but if I played a tiny part, so be it. He did the heavy lifting for himself. But I always enjoyed helping out the kids who had a clue and were interested in helping themselves in life.
There were also seniors who had just never been in job roles in life to have any contact with radio tech. They were often retirees who just wanted to help out somewhere in the community. They learned slower like we all do as we age, but knew how to take notes and were methodical about their approach to learning. They were often fun to see coming along also.
I do miss it a little bit, but like I said, I moved way too far out and have too many other evening priorities that make the time commitment way too high for me right now.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Always wanted to find time to do NESA but I hear from some Comm alum that they totally kick Comm guy's asses.
Aircrew friends say it's a bit of a butt kicker for aircrew and if Comm is worse, that'd be a hell week.
Plus let's face it, I'm sure someone is going to force the use of those retarded HF rigs and ALE just because they're issued out, and they're an exercise in stupidity.
I'd rather go hang an entire State worth of Ubiquiti gear on my own dime from my own Pelican cases to drag IP to a disconnected mission base -- and then hand the command folks a freaking cordless phone hooked to an Asterisk box outside of the "disaster" area...
... than waste time with those ****ing ALE radios and antennas.
And I'm a ham! I like HF. But it's the wrong tech for the wrong job.
Concur, there is a diffrence, but that wasn't the usual "choice"; I stepped away from a sqdn with multiple MPs, most well over a 1,000 hours, instrument rated, a couple CFIIs, one ATP, etc. All but one are ex-CAP now. . .aircraft and missions going to the good old boy network, some just as qualified, true, and a bunch not nearly so.
But hey, it is what it is. The cadet program, in which I had no interest, did some good work, and while CAP rarely saves lives, it does do dome good aviation work, in aerial photography and damage assesment, and finding the occasional crash. I don't mean to bash only, but some of the justification here is real sketchy - being concerned that a qualified MP may not handle distraction, for example - it's a bit nonsensical, at best, or a result of pseudo-safety overreach.
Positive side, I never marched, not even once. Being ex-USAF, I had the uniforms, but never wore them in CAP, not even once. But you can stumble into a sqdn that does adhere to that kind of thing. You need to shop around.
I've been a CAP member for over twenty years, and I've never even had the opportunity to march, let alone been required to do so.
By the way, I'm not saying that marching is a bad thing. (Lord knows I need the exercise!) Just trying to set the facts straight as far as the adult programs are concerned.
During the time I spent in CAP I have never seen any of the senior member march. I have never seen them stand in formation either. I was active at the squadron, group and wing levels.
OkieAviator
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OkieAviator
Did you read it? Basic gist I got was to try and grow CAP footprint through partnerships within the Air Force and other Federal Agencies. There's even a diagram with arrows showing how the DoD strategic plan flows into CAPs.
Maybe the 'General' can do a visit to SOCOM and offer to use a CAP Cessna Caravan to drop some troops off down south.
Oh sure, some real gems of business school copywriting in there. Like this morsel:
The Civil Air Patrol will work in concert with our United States Air Force to define necessary requirements and establish procedures for adding emerging requirements and eliminating outdated requirements that present hindrances to success. We will review our library of regulations, pamphlets and manuals to identify true compliance actions versus burdensome requirements of yesteryear agendas. Our review will take care to mitigate stovepiping or "functional silos" by employing a cross-functional review process intended to prevent one functional area’s requirements from generating unanticipated requirements on a sister function. In light of this perceived liberal approach, we will renew vigor to our accountability processes to assure taxpayers that wrongdoing within CAP will not be tolerated.
Contentless buzzwords underlined for your convenience. There must be a federal regulation that requires the use of the word 'stovepiping' in any strategic plan.
(I would have just said 'we will review our numerous regulations and eliminate those who don't serve a purpose'.)
Lots of diagrams with lots of arrows. How about this one:
Attachments
In related news. Went to tonights CAP meeting.
Uniform census:
- 7 blue jeans and sweaters (2 NDSU, 1 Vikings, 1 Packers)
- 3 tan cargo-pants with non-logo sweaters
- 1 flight-suit (non CAP, HEMS pilot)
No marching, no formations, no formalities.
Uniform census:
- 7 blue jeans and sweaters (2 NDSU, 1 Vikings, 1 Packers)
- 3 tan cargo-pants with non-logo sweaters
- 1 flight-suit (non CAP, HEMS pilot)
No marching, no formations, no formalities.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Wow. I'm a supporter in general of CAP and even I'm more than ready to vote to de-fund any organization that wrote that drivel.