Proposed new rule(s) to Rules of Conduct

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Real names won't really help. Despite my use of a screen name, I try to be civil. I will hold my own if I need to, but I try to be very careful about what I say.

I would be much less likely to post facts about real situations that I know of that might be a cautionary tale for others if I had to use my real name. I have met people in real life on this board, and have no problem telling them my real name over a handshake. But I don't want my name attached to a post regarding fact patterns involving others that I might post to illustrate a point of law or procedure so other members can benefit from other's bad (or good) experience. There are certainly some matters, including some that have been addressed on this board by others, that I won't discuss at all because I am too close and have confidential information, regardless of using a screen name.
 
According to many reputable cooks/chefs (including Julia & Alton Brown, our favorite pilot-chef) meat for burgers should be no more than 85% lean. In other words, 15-20% fat. After cooking, let the burger sit, covered in foil, for about 5-10 minutes. They will still be warm and much jucier.

It pains me to watch people grill burgers outside and smash them down to flat patties. All that does is squash the juices out, leaving a very dry chunk of meat. No wonder A1 & ketchup are such big sellers. If you cook the burger properly, you really don't need additional junk.


America's Test Kitchen says the same thing. Though I'm not sure any of those Green Mountain folks are pilots. ;)
 
Your right to remain curious is no problem for me.

Using real names in a chat room has far more exposure problems than solving a localized manners problem. It's just like anything else, if you want to do something, then do it. If others don't why do you feel the need to get someone else to do your bidding for you on a public board? We have enough rules, regs, laws, ordinances, etc.


I appreciate your understanding that my opinion is as worthy as yours. Thanks!

Jim
 
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Meh.

I'm happy trusting the MC to use things such as "judgement" and "common sense" in reaching decisions.

If that must be codified, then something like:
"The MC reserves to sole, exclusive, and non-appealable right to lock or delete any thread (or post) whatsoever, if such thread is, in their sole, exclusive, and non-appealable opinion, such thread (or post) detracts from the community"

If they exercise poor judgement or a lack of common sense, I have every right to take myself elsewhere.
 
I call BS. I use my real name here and it has no effect (that I can tell) whatsoever.
So why do you have to call BS?
Why didn't you just say you disagree with me? Especially in a thread such as this?
And do you consider the fact that it hasn't happened to you (yet) as proof that it can't?
 
So why do you have to call BS?
Why didn't you just say you disagree with me?

And the difference is?

If I'm sitting at the bar having a beer with a buddy and he says something I don't agree with...I say "ohhhh...BS"

:dunno:
 
There is some potential for this thread to become ironic.
 
And the difference is?

If I'm sitting at the bar having a beer with a buddy and he says something I don't agree with...I say "ohhhh...BS"

:dunno:
The difference is that face to face,
; body language and intonation come into play. That is probably one of the main reasons Internet forums get so nasty.
 
If you look at the history of people using Usernames vs. Real Names online, it is interesting to see the pendulum swing.

If you remember back in the AOL days, everybody used a fake name and hid behind anonymity.

Then by the time Facebook got going, people then started using real names and putting out all sorts of identifying data (schools, birthdays, phone numbers, etc.).

On Facebook, my posts are generally "election safe" as I could easily run for office, and, other than a few pro-Prohibitionist-nutcases, I doubt I offend anyone. It is also terribly boring.

Forums and message boards seem to be a mixture. Some of the most fun forums have 100% usernames and have a rollicking lack of moderation, somehow, once people who don't have the fortitude to roll with "punches", they seem to develop into a steady state of peer regulated behavior. Other forums with real names are much more boring, and much more narrowly focused and contain less entertainment, but, potentially, higher valuable information.

I have been on both kinds of forums, and as someone who owns businesses, I choose not to put my name out there, as I have had people try and "harm" my reputation based upon comments, opinions, and, honestly, some pretty damn funny smart-assed comments.

I also know on POA, I have avoided subscribing to Spin Zone, as that is where most of the butt-hurt originates. Without witnessing first hand, I would bet 80% of the "conflict" originates from SZ participants. It certainly does on similar forums.
 
Meh.



I'm happy trusting the MC to use things such as "judgement" and "common sense" in reaching decisions.



If that must be codified, then something like:

"The MC reserves to sole, exclusive, and non-appealable right to lock or delete any thread (or post) whatsoever, if such thread is, in their sole, exclusive, and non-appealable opinion, such thread (or post) detracts from the community"



If they exercise poor judgement or a lack of common sense, I have every right to take myself elsewhere.


Agreed.
 
The difference is that face to face,
; body language and intonation come into play. That is probably one of the main reasons Internet forums get so nasty.

BINGO. And again we have a winner!
 
Meh.

I'm happy trusting the MC to use things such as "judgement" and "common sense" in reaching decisions.

If that must be codified, then something like:
"The MC reserves to sole, exclusive, and non-appealable right to lock or delete any thread (or post) whatsoever, if such thread is, in their sole, exclusive, and non-appealable opinion, such thread (or post) detracts from the community"

If they exercise poor judgement or a lack of common sense, I have every right to take myself elsewhere.

Obviously I started this thread because I was "unhappy" with some of the recent actions of the MC. If uncivil posts occur, to me the "common sense" action to take is against the specific posts and posters. I see very little "common sense" in locking threads in response to the actions of some posters to it (versus locking or moving a thread whose subject or initial post would be in violation with the forum or subforum it was started in.) In what way does thread locking reduce future problems? I'm having a hard time seeing the correlation between action and hoped-for consequence. I do see posters who had NOT violated the policies get burned and upset by thread locks. I do NOT see the perps admitting to mea culpas and promising to change their behavior - probably because they aren't being punished.
 
I always make it a point to not try and hide my meatspace identity.

However, I do think that requiring a 'real name' policy on an industry specific discussion form like this is going to really discourage people who work in the aviation industry from participating.

I mean, if you call my boss and say 'that Jim Howard behaved like a poo-poo head on our discussion about logging third in command time!' my boss is going to reply 'That's terrible, but what does this have to do with our software company?'

On the other hand if an identifiable pilot flies for Acme Airlines and happens to comment on an Acme pilot getting locked out of the cockpit, then he might find himself doing a carpet dance in the Chief Pilot's office'.

Named participants can be jerks, and anonymous participants can be really useful.
 
Obviously I started this thread because I was "unhappy" with some of the recent actions of the MC. If uncivil posts occur, to me the "common sense" action to take is against the specific posts and posters. I see very little "common sense" in locking threads in response to the actions of some posters to it (versus locking or moving a thread whose subject or initial post would be in violation with the forum or subforum it was started in.) In what way does thread locking reduce future problems? I'm having a hard time seeing the correlation between action and hoped-for consequence. I do see posters who had NOT violated the policies get burned and upset by thread locks. I do NOT see the perps admitting to mea culpas and promising to change their behavior - probably because they aren't being punished.

I'll give you my personal perspective which may or may not match that of other MC members.

Threads where several individuals engage in (for lack of a better word) "uncivil" behavior tend to spiral out of control. Without face-face contact, it's often hard to communicate well. And it's well known fact in social networks (heck, any human interaction) to "attack back" when one feels they are attacked.

I suppose if we had a moderator watching the forum 24/7 with a hair-trigger to apply discipline as you envision, then it might work OK. Fact is that we don't have that ability as each of the moderators has work and other duties of life to attend to. In addition, we currently have a policy among the moderators to require a vote of 3 before taking action - that's in-place to ensure that more than one point-of-view is considered before we act & try and make the moderation "lighter".

Many times by the time the MC can act the thread in question has turned into a quagmire of "uncivil" or "political" posts. At which point closing the thread is the best option. All y'all can self-moderate without our action by simply refraining from the attack or political mode. From my perspective, that would make this a better place. For the record, we have banned some users either short- or long-term for violations of the RoC. We don't make that public for a variety of reasons.

There is nothing stopping someone from opening another thread on a topic, as long as it doesn't devolve in a similar manner.

PoA has continued to grow, while at the same time we've lost some legacy members who feel that the forum is too "uncivil". That's an issue that's not unique to PoA - anyone who's read the news this week would see that Twitter's CEO is struggling with the same issue in their feeds... and he's vowed to take action.

From my perspective, as the front porch of aviation, we want to be welcoming, while at the same time having a place for robust debate. Were folks to keep the focus on the topic being discussed (rather than making it "personal") it's less likely we'd be having this discussion. Saying "I disagree with your point because the agency is on record as saying..." is far better than saying "you're an idiot for thinking that. Any moron knows what the agency means". The former encourages discussion, the latter encourages a response in-kind.

Again, these are my personal views and the perspective I try and take when dealing with an issue. Sometime I get tired of the bickering and may well be cranky - that's why we currently have a policy that three or more MC members need to vote on a particular action (except for Spam, which can be dealt with unilaterally.
 
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When Fred Johnson first started CPS (Cessna Pilots' Society) it was a really fun place to hang out at. Fred was a little "rough around the edges" himself, didn't mind a bit of off-color humor, and even threw quite a bit of it around himself.

But, unfortunately, Fred had a life change and backed out of both aviation and the forum. Fred is a great guy, it was a big loss for both aviation and CPS.

CPS was then taken over by a bunch of puritans. One actually posted that it was his view on moderating was "if it's not fit for my 13 year-old daughter to read then it's not fit for this forum."

Really?

A bunch of grown men (mostly, with a few women thrown in, just like here) are supposed to talk only about subjects appropriate for a 13 year-old girl? Really, Dave? Is that what the conversations at the local hangar sound like on a Saturday morning? And, as she grows can our diversity of posts at CPS grow too?

Seriously, it was (and likely still is) ridiculous. I got severely reprimanded for telling a joke that included the word "cunnilingus."

I got suspended another time for telling the truth about one of the mods when he went public with PM that I sent to him. One mod said something like "our board of directors honors the privacy of private messages" to which I responded "yes, six of you do" (there were seven). Tim got a time out!

Tim's no angel (we all know that), I have many faults also and have stirred up my share of sh*t in the past, here and there and everywhere. But, seriously, I'm in the minor leagues compared to some of you guys who seem to revel in making posts with the explicit purpose of pizzing off the masses and/or proving that you're superior to everyone else.

and I agree REAL NAMES should be required as I've said many times before.

Thanks for "the rest of the story". I knew which parties were involved but no one there would admit it.
 
You know what?
Mrs.6PC only buys that Laura's 97% lean beef
I bet that is why. If we got regular old ground beef I bet they wouldn't shrink up as much.

Oatmeal will swell with the moisture that the meat loses (most of the weight lost in cooking meat is water weight, not fat), add an egg as a binder and that also helps block moisture loss.
 
We are inclined to bully, and the Internet is the perfect forum to do it, especially for those who feel impotent in real life.
 
The difference is that face to face,
; body language and intonation come into play. That is probably one of the main reasons Internet forums get so nasty.

The difference is face to face you risk getting your ass kicked, or shot if Spin Zone is any indicator.
 
The difference is face to face you risk getting your ass kicked, or shot if Spin Zone is any indicator.

Nah. Like you said, Internet bullies are usually impotent.
 
The difference is that face to face,
; body language and intonation come into play. That is probably one of the main reasons Internet forums get so nasty.

Well, I meant it like I was sitting at a bar and said "ohhhh...BS!"

;)
 
Meh.



I'm happy trusting the MC to use things such as "judgement" and "common sense" in reaching decisions.



If that must be codified, then something like:

"The MC reserves to sole, exclusive, and non-appealable right to lock or delete any thread (or post) whatsoever, if such thread is, in their sole, exclusive, and non-appealable opinion, such thread (or post) detracts from the community"



If they exercise poor judgement or a lack of common sense, I have every right to take myself elsewhere.


+1. Winner.
 
A set of several simple rules leads to complex, intelligent behavior. A set of complex rules leads to a dumb and primitive behavior.

Cannot recall who wrote that, but I've always liked the quote.
 
Here's a suggestion to battle the hiding behind a screen name issue. Allow users to maintain a screen name so bots can access the name but allow a registered user to request a real name from the system. Perhaps this might temper some of the rude behavior if people knew they could not hide. Make outing a poster a death sentence ( permanent ban ) to keep the original posters argument about the internet valid.

Plenty of us use our real names and are still willing to behave like a-holes on the internet.
 
The difference is face to face you risk getting your ass kicked, or shot if Spin Zone is any indicator.



That's it right there.

Same as some people become road rage killers when they get behind the wheel of three tons of steel.

Times have sure changed. When I was growing up in West Texas, a man better not cuss around women or children. If you said the 'F' word in front of their wife, those old cowboys would light you up. But they cussed like sailor's among-st themselves. :yesnod:
 
I'll start using my real name.

Hello - my name is Bob. You may know me by my full name: Bob Loblaw.
 
That's it right there.



Same as some people become road rage killers when they get behind the wheel of three tons of steel.



Times have sure changed. When I was growing up in West Texas, a man better not cuss around women or children. If you said the 'F' word in front of their wife, those old cowboys would light you up. But they cussed like sailor's among-st themselves. :yesnod:


Equality happened. And I'm fine with that. I know women who can cuss sailors under the table. Pretending women can't hear a cuss word is just silly.

Kids? Meh. I'll try to keep it G-rated but most of the time I'm not hanging around kids anyway. Nor have much reason to be cussing around them.

Not sure what your point was, honestly.

The number of "road rage killers" is vastly outnumbered by the multitudes of poorly trained drivers (we don't require they actually take tests or anything, that'd be inconvenient) who have significantly impaired ability and don't even know it, who kill others on the roads. It's really rare to see a real road raging fool aiming a vehicle at others. But it's not unusual at all to see some soccer mom with zero depth perception and no concept of braking reaction times and distances involved, cut off a semi at 75 MPH thinking absolutely nothing is wrong.

People focus on the "road rager" as the abnormal behavior gets their attention and completely ignore the commonplace stupidity that kills thousands upon thousands a year, driving.

How does this relate to PoA, I have no idea. But the road rage analogy is pretty weak. No one is going to die of either a clueless Internet poster or a road/forum raging one. Both are utterly benign in the grand scheme of things.

Unless one has a heart condition that could be triggered by false internet drama. LOL.

If you're over the age of 12 and haven't figured out the Internet is full of people acting stupidly, you're really not paying very much attention.

Perhaps that's the tailgater analogy. Keep tailgating thinking the Net is destined for any serious level of sanity and you'll probably eat a bumper in the next 20,000 miles. Here's hoping your brewer is equipped with air bags. And not those ones that are getting all the lawsuits from stuffing metal shards in your face.

There are many who don't even know they're about to crash and burn emotionally who ride the bumper of the vehicle ahead and are upset when they do ram into someone else from behind? ;)

"This news reel brought to Ovaltine and OSHA! Internet emotional safety and you!"... ;) ;) ;)
 
But it's not unusual at all to see some soccer mom with zero depth perception and no concept of braking reaction times and distances involved, cut off a semi at 75 MPH thinking absolutely nothing is wrong.

Drivers-in-Fatal-Crashes-By-Gender.jpg

5888a4f80067d82dc9e62a2f36efafbf5c3b951d68310544aa57239c29021dfc.jpg
 
Interesting statistic. When they say "involved" do they include the driver of the other vehicle if they survived and the fatality is the other gender? Just curious. Involved could mean a lot of things.

There's also the equipment factor. In a lot of families momma has the newer safer vehicle for carting kids around in with 5000 airbags and nearly as many cup holders, and dad is driving the rusty 1991 Acura he bought in college, 15 years into the marriage.

Stereotype I know, but quite true in a number of households I know. Dad doesn't get a newer vehicle or any safety upgrades until he's about 30. If home economics goes well.

(Edit: sorry. I find this question way more interesting than people acting like children on the Internet and other people whining about it. Apologies. Haha.)
 
Interesting statistic. When they say "involved" do they include the driver of the other vehicle if they survived and the fatality is the other gender?

This is as close as I could find to reinforcing your stereotype:

PROBLEM:
Motor-vehicle crash rate comparisons by age and gender usually are based on the extent to which drivers in a particular age/gender category are themselves injured or involved in crashes (e.g., the number of 20-year-old females in crashes). Basing comparisons instead on the extent to which drivers in various age/gender groups are responsible for deaths (including themselves) in their crashes is more revealing of their overall contribution to the problem.

RESULTS:
When all crashes were considered, both the youngest and oldest drivers were most likely to be responsible for deaths in their crashes. In two-vehicle crashes, the oldest drivers were more likely than young drivers to be responsible. Young males were more likely than young females to be responsible for crash deaths, whereas females in their 50s and older were more likely than same-age males to be responsible. In terms of responsibility for deaths per licensed driver, young drivers, especially males, had the highest rates because of their high involvement rates and high responsibility rates. The majority of deaths for which young drivers were responsible occurred to people other than themselves, especially passengers in their vehicles, whereas the bulk of the deaths for which older drivers were responsible were their own.


From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733986

Damn punk kids.
 
Not sure what your point was, honestly.



My point was the one Henning was making that we say things on here we would never say face to face for fear of physical harm.

If you don't get it, try dropping the 'F' bomb around some old cowboys wives or kids I know here in TX.

They may do that up in Denver, but some of these old homies here still don't play 'dat. :nonod:
 
My point was the one Henning was making that we say things on here we would never say face to face for fear of physical harm.

If you don't get it, try dropping the 'F' bomb around some old cowboys wives or kids I know here in TX.

They may do that up in Denver, but some of these old homies here still don't play 'dat. :nonod:

Yeah, but those same cowboys (at least the ones I've been around) will drop the "N" word right and left without thinking twice.

In my neck-o-the-woods that'll get your ass kicked far quicker than spewing the F bomb (including by me)
 
Hmmmm. I always thought that liberation was good for both races? Apparently some races are allowed more liberation than other races.
 
Hmmmm. I always thought that liberation was good for both races? Apparently some races are allowed more liberation than other races.

Black people call you a cracker, that's a bad thing. Florida calls himself one, that's okay. :dunno:
 
Black people call you a cracker, that's a bad thing. Florida calls himself one, that's okay. :dunno:

I think I see. It's ok to be pejorative if the object of the word is correct, but only used by the proper race?

Like separate, but equal I guess.

You got some kind of interesting standards I'll give you that.
 
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