Problems at KSRQ

[gcd89]

So I got my first A&P at KSRQ but there's some issues I have.

I apply for an A/P job with a guy we'll call Mr. A. He says come in for this week to help us mount an engine that just came back from overhaul, and we'll discuss something more permanent after the first week.

So I go in an we get started mounting this engine onto an LSA. I'm working under this ancient old guy. He basically says "Do this" and I do it....now here's the thing. I have NEVER in my couple days on this job seen a maintenance manual, or reference material of any type. Everything is just kinda done by ear. And furthermore, the hours are part time, but I can kinda leave whenever I feel like, and Mr. A has not written down or had me sign anything regarding my hours worked, so I'm unsure if I'm even gonna get paid. I'm writing it all down, but there's no punch in, or sign in or anything to prove I've ever even been there. So I have a couple questions...

1) If/when I'm asked to sign off on this engine hanging, should I do it? I'm a little unsure because I, personally have never referenced any manuals or documentation, and have never seen the guy I'm working under (ancient old guy) reference anything either.

2) Kind of an unrelated question here, but is hanging this engine (Rotax 912) onto this airframe (Remos 300) a major repair/alteration, or is it considered minor?

3) Should I be worried that there's has been no payroll documentation other than me writing it down in my own log?

4) If he came to you asking to stay on full-time, under these circumstances, would you?

 

[N801BH]

So I got my first A&P at KSRQ but there's some issues I have.

I apply for an A/P job with a guy we'll call Mr. A. He says come in for this week to help us mount an engine that just came back from overhaul, and we'll discuss something more permanent after the first week.

So I go in an we get started mounting this engine onto an LSA. I'm working under this ancient old guy. He basically says "Do this" and I do it....now here's the thing. I have NEVER in my couple days on this job seen a maintenance manual, or reference material of any type. Everything is just kinda done by ear. And furthermore, the hours are part time, but I can kinda leave whenever I feel like, and Mr. A has not written down or had me sign anything regarding my hours worked, so I'm unsure if I'm even gonna get paid. I'm writing it all down, but there's no punch in, or sign in or anything to prove I've ever even been there. So I have a couple questions...

1) If/when I'm asked to sign off on this engine hanging, should I do it? I'm a little unsure because I, personally have never referenced any manuals or documentation, and have never seen the guy I'm working under (ancient old guy) reference anything either.

2) Kind of an unrelated question here, but is hanging this engine (Rotax 912) onto this airframe (Remos 300) a major repair/alteration, or is it considered minor?

3) Should I be worried that there's has been no payroll documentation other than me writing it down in my own log?

4) If he came to you asking to stay on full-time, under these circumstances, would you?

1- If you are asked to sign anything demand to see the manuals,,, review them and if the procedure you used to hang the motor was similar to what the manual called for then say... I will sign... AFTER you pay me.

2- The answer to that question should have been taught to you during your A&P training.

3- If they 1099 you then yes....

4- It could turn out to be a OK job.... then again I bet this first experience will paint the picture of how things work there....

Ben.

 

[RotorAndWing]

So I got my first A&P at KSRQ but there's some issues I have.

I apply for an A/P job with a guy we'll call Mr. A. He says come in for this week to help us mount an engine that just came back from overhaul, and we'll discuss something more permanent after the first week.

So I go in an we get started mounting this engine onto an LSA. I'm working under this ancient old guy. He basically says "Do this" and I do it....now here's the thing. I have NEVER in my couple days on this job seen a maintenance manual, or reference material of any type. Everything is just kinda done by ear. And furthermore, the hours are part time, but I can kinda leave whenever I feel like, and Mr. A has not written down or had me sign anything regarding my hours worked, so I'm unsure if I'm even gonna get paid. I'm writing it all down, but there's no punch in, or sign in or anything to prove I've ever even been there. So I have a couple questions...

1) If/when I'm asked to sign off on this engine hanging, should I do it? I'm a little unsure because I, personally have never referenced any manuals or documentation, and have never seen the guy I'm working under (ancient old guy) reference anything either.

2) Kind of an unrelated question here, but is hanging this engine (Rotax 912) onto this airframe (Remos 300) a major repair/alteration, or is it considered minor?

3) Should I be worried that there's has been no payroll documentation other than me writing it down in my own log?

4) If he came to you asking to stay on full-time, under these circumstances, would you?

Are you an A&P?

 

[gcd89]

1- If you are asked to sign anything demand to see the manuals,,, review them and if the procedure you used to hang the motor was similar to what the manual called for then say... I will sign... AFTER you pay me.

That's the thing. Everything has been done so out of order, that I can't even be sure if I'll remember how we did stuff. The old dude I'm working with doesn't even know, procedurally, how things are supposed to go. There have been two or three things that were a MAJOR PITA to accomplish, only to later hear this guy say "We probably should've put that on first, AND THEN that part." To which I wanna say "We'd have known that if you were using a manual!"

2- The answer to that question should have been taught to you during your A&P training.

Wasn't

3- If they 1099 you then yes....

1099? Please elaborate?

4- It could turn out to be a OK job.... then again I bet this first experience will paint the picture of how things work there....

Yep. Did I mention we had to hang the engine by hand? No lift, or hoist or anything? I know Rotax are relatively light, but wtf??

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but you're asking questions that anyone holding an A&P certificate should already know, and I find that alarming.

My suggestion is to stop working until you find the answers to your questions. The LAST thing you would want to have happen is a FAA Inspector walk into that hangar while you're working.

 

[gcd89]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but you're asking questions that anyone holding an A&P certificate should already know, and I find that alarming.

My suggestion is to stop working until you find the answers to your questions. The LAST thing you would want to have happen is a FAA Inspector walk into that hangar while you're working.

Everytihng in life I have ever learned, be it music, or flying or anything, has been done by actually doing it.

I thought the whole thing about this av. community was that everyone was willing to help each other, not act holier-than-thou towards guys that know less and are seeking knowledge.

My suggestion is to stop working until you find the answers to your questions.

What do you think I'm doing right this second?

 

[N801BH]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but you're asking questions that anyone holding an A&P certificate should already know, and I find that alarming.

My suggestion is to stop working until you find the answers to your questions. The LAST thing you would want to have happen is a FAA Inspector walk into that hangar while you're working.

No Flaming from me sir...... You gave sound advise..

 

[murphey]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but you're asking questions that anyone holding an A&P certificate should already know, and I find that alarming.

In all fairness to the OP, the A&P schools around here in Denver won't get near a Rotax nor an LSA. The assumption is that the students will be working on large pistons, turbines & jets because anyone with a Rotax around here has probably been maintaining it himself.

My suggestion is to stop working until you find the answers to your questions. The LAST thing you would want to have happen is a FAA Inspector walk into that hangar while you're working.

 

[murphey]

2) Kind of an unrelated question here, but is hanging this engine (Rotax 912) onto this airframe (Remos 300) a major repair/alteration, or is it considered minor?

Ok, you've been thru A&P school, you've slept with AC 43.13 under your pillow, right? You've practically memorized FAR Part 43?

So, what does it say?

 

[gcd89]

Ok, you've been thru A&P school, you've slept with AC 43.13 under your pillow, right? You've practically memorized FAR Part 43?

So, what does it say?

It doesn't say anything regarding an actual replacement. It explains doing something TO and airframe or engine, but I can't find anything about installing a new engine onto an airframe, so I reckon it's a minor repair...

I get super frustrated on this forum because I can never get a simple answer. It's always somebody saying to do my own research...which I am doing by asking. I'm asking for advice...WTF is with all the attitude?

 

[RotorAndWing]

In all fairness to the OP, the A&P schools around here in Denver won't get near a Rotax nor an LSA. The assumption is that the students will be working on large pistons, turbines & jets because anyone with a Rotax around here has probably been maintaining it himself.

Whether he's working on a Rotax, a Lycoming or a GE90 it's all done the same, with required data and instructions (assuming we are talking certified aircraft).

 

[RotorAndWing]

So I go in an we get started mounting this engine onto an LSA. I'm working under this ancient old guy. He basically says "Do this" and I do it....now here's the thing. I have NEVER in my couple days on this job seen a maintenance manual, or reference material of any type. Everything is just kinda done by ear.

So as a A&P rated mechanic are you comfortable with this?

Did they teach you in school that you must have the proper tools and data to perform this sort of maintenance?

Remember this?

14 CFR Part 43
43.13 Performance rules (general).

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

1) If/when I'm asked to sign off on this engine hanging, should I do it? I'm a little unsure because I, personally have never referenced any manuals or documentation, and have never seen the guy I'm working under (ancient old guy) reference anything either.

Why would you? If you choose to do so and it becomes discovered, you are going to have to deal with this:

43.12 Maintenance records: Falsification, reproduction, or alteration.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any record or report that is required to be made, kept, or used to show compliance with any requirement under this part;
(2) Any reproduction, for fraudulent purpose, of any record or report under this part; or
(3) Any alteration, for fraudulent purpose, of any record or report under this part.
(b) The commission by any person of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking the applicable airman, operator, or production certificate, Technical Standard Order Authorization, FAA-Parts Manufacturer Approval, or Product and Process Specification issued by the Administrator and held by that person.

Like Dirty Harry once said "Do you feel lucky?"

2) Kind of an unrelated question here, but is hanging this engine (Rotax 912) onto this airframe (Remos 300) a major repair/alteration, or is it considered minor?

Sorry, I really find this troubling that you don't know the answer. This is basic, basic A&P 101.

Lets look at the definition in 14 CFR 1.1

1.1

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—
(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or
(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.


Major repair means a repair:
(1) That, if improperly done, might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or
(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Minor alteration means an alteration other than a major alteration.


Minor repair means a repair other than a major repair.


Ask yourself where doing an engine change, using the same approved engine and associated parts where would it fall under?

That's the thing. Everything has been done so out of order, that I can't even be sure if I'll remember how we did stuff. The old dude I'm working with doesn't even know, procedurally, how things are supposed to go. There have been two or three things that were a MAJOR PITA to accomplish, only to later hear this guy say "We probably should've put that on first, AND THEN that part." To which I wanna say "We'd have known that if you were using a manual!"

Why would you begin a job in the first place, let alone continue a job without proper documentation?


How do you know what the proper torque settings are? How about engine mount placement? How are you sure you are not damaging something without using the proper tools or techniques?

Yep. Did I mention we had to hang the engine by hand? No lift, or hoist or anything? I know Rotax are relatively light, but wtf??

See Above.

I get super frustrated on this forum because I can never get a simple answer. It's always somebody saying to do my own research...which I am doing by asking. I'm asking for advice...WTF is with all the attitude?

Here's the attitude. You come onto an internet forum asking questions about work you are in the process of performing, and asking questions that any basic A&P should know, or at least know how to find.

You are broadcasting to the world "Hey, Look here, I'm doing all sorts of questionable stuff on a Remos at KSRQ!" "To anyone reading this, come on down and check it out!"

This is a public forum which anyone can read.

A-N-Y-O-N-E

Can I make it any clearer???

Myself, along with several A&P's on here don't mind answering questions. We all have brain farts every now and again and nobody knows everything.


But please, use a little common sense first before you ring a bell that can't be unrung.

 

[gcd89]

Can I make it any clearer???

Myself, along with several A&P's on here don't mind answering questions. We all have brain farts every now and again and nobody knows everything.


But please, use a little common sense first before you ring a bell that can't be unrung.

I get that, but I'm learning dude. I'm not sure when most A/P's on here got their liscences, but I can tell you right now, the school I went to isn't exactly the best. Very little practical teaching/learning happening. I figured I'd do what any normal newbie person would do in any field, and ask for advice. I'm working under someone else (I guess, nothing has been made exactly clear), so I'm assuming he's doing it by the books, but have never actually seen him reference it myself...I haven't the slightest idea if this is the normal way things usually are or what, because this is my first job.

 

[flyer]

Like someone else said here, if you are the one that will be returning it to service, I would have made sure they had all the proper manuals before I started the job. You will learn over time there are shops out there that will try to get by on the cheap and not have all the current maintenance manuals or equipment to do the job properly.

 

[Everskyward]

I get that, but I'm learning dude. I'm not sure when most A/P's on here got their liscences, but I can tell you right now, the school I went to isn't exactly the best. Very little practical teaching/learning happening. I figured I'd do what any normal newbie person would do in any field, and ask for advice. I'm working under someone else (I guess, nothing has been made exactly clear), so I'm assuming he's doing it by the books, but have never actually seen him reference it myself...I haven't the slightest idea if this is the normal way things usually are or what, because this is my first job.

That's not a great assumption to make but probably a common one that newbie mechanics and newbie pilots make about other mechanics and pilots who they view to be older than dirt so they must know what they are doing.

 

[airguy]

I get that, but I'm learning dude. I'm not sure when most A/P's on here got their liscences, but I can tell you right now, the school I went to isn't exactly the best. Very little practical teaching/learning happening. I figured I'd do what any normal newbie person would do in any field, and ask for advice. I'm working under someone else (I guess, nothing has been made exactly clear), so I'm assuming he's doing it by the books, but have never actually seen him reference it myself...I haven't the slightest idea if this is the normal way things usually are or what, because this is my first job.

If I were you, I would take whatever payment they give for hours worked to date, absolutely refuse to sign your name to anything associated with that work, and walk away.

As has been pointed out, questionable work was done or is being done, the whole world now knows about it, and that you have a finger in that pie. At this point today it's only internet rumor but if you sign something, now it's legally binding. Caution is advised.

This is a very lawyer-happy world we live in. Learn the codes and live by them. If a kid falls off a fencepost on the edge of the airport property, momma is gonna try to sue you just because you work there. Any accident that has a logbook with your signature in it is a lawsuit. And we haven't even started with the 'gummint yet....

 

[flyingron]

A more detailed place for major repair/alteration details is Part 43 Appendix A.

 

[poadeleted21]

If I were you, I would take whatever payment they give for hours worked to date, absolutely refuse to sign your name to anything associated with that work, and walk away.

As has been pointed out, questionable work was done or is being done, the whole world now knows about it, and that you have a finger in that pie. At this point today it's only internet rumor but if you sign something, now it's legally binding. Caution is advised.

This is a very lawyer-happy world we live in. Learn the codes and live by them. If a kid falls off a fencepost on the edge of the airport property, momma is gonna try to sue you just because you work there. Any accident that has a logbook with your signature in it is a lawsuit. And we haven't even started with the 'gummint yet....

Wish you were lying, you're not. There's a good reason to allow anonymous posts, and to be VERY vague when asking questions and the safe route is to just shut up. OP has now identified the airport and and confessed to being a "noob" (Nothing wrong with that I sorta thought some of the responses were harsh to his seemingly simple question). I can see an attorney whipping out this post as Exhibit(A) - No manuals, signed off by a green A&P who's unsure if it was a minor job or not (nevermind what that actually means, what would it mean to a jury), let's add a ZERO to our claim. Sad.

 

[N801BH]

Wish you were lying, you're not. There's a good reason to allow anonymous posts, and to be VERY vague when asking questions and the safe route is to just shut up. OP has now identified the airport and and confessed to being a "noob" (Nothing wrong with that I sorta thought some of the responses were harsh to his seemingly simple question). I can see an attorney whipping out this post as Exhibit(A) - No manuals, signed off by a green A&P who's unsure if it was a minor job or not (nevermind what that actually means, what would it mean to a jury), let's add a ZERO to our claim. Sad.

If you are suggesting that I was harsh then I will apologize to the OP.. I was just answering his questions as best I could... You guys all know me now and I am pretty direct with my opinions... probably too direct, but you all know exactly how I feel about the subjects I post to. I can't even spell 'sugercoating'. :wink2:...I personally think Rotor and Wing was firm but polite in his response to the OP.

I would like to play the devils advocate though....

Whoever owns the plane in question took it to a shop to have the motor removed and replaced... I presume it is a FAA certified place with ticket carrying mechanics... He trusts his life to their work and in my mind that is the very reason for A&P's and IA's to complete the job properly.. If this really went down as the OP said it did then something needs to be done to correct the situation so it won't go haywire again to some other customer.. I dislike attorneys as much as the rest of you but if this repair did ending up hurting a person because of poor workmanship then I would have to admit a lawyer has sound grounds to persue a remedy... IMHO.

Ben.

 

[gcd89]

Well, I figured out that I'm not signing off anything..the old guy is signing everything, it's his name on the line...

 

[denverpilot]

Good call. I was wondering if he's charging the owner for all the hours re-working things when he screws up the order of operations. Hope he's cheap if he's charging for all that.