private pilots can be paid for flying as PIC?

[Rick Rademacher]

I received this today in my email ->http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event...aspx?eid=56804

**The Ohio State University, Angle of Attack (AOA), Research Study / see contact info below .Topic: Volunteer pilots needed to study the benefits of Angle of Attack Displays. Compensation for time. .Date and Time: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 , starting at 8:00 am EST Download Calendar File .Speaker(s): Mr. Marshall Pomeroy (event coordinator) .Brief Description: Who Can Participate:

1. Volunteer pilots with a private pilot certificate having between 50 - 200 hours of total flt time.

2. Time commitment is 3-6 hours. Flight time will average 2-3.5 hours. Compenasation will be based on $10/flight hour. Flight time can be logged at PIC.

3. Flights will be conducted in university aircraft. Flights will begin and end at KOSU**

So, the FAA says it is OK for a private pilot to be paid compensation of $10 per flight hour of logged PIC time and FREE flight time to participate in this study. Are they breaking their own rules? While the study might be important, the FAA should be consistent in what they say we can or can’t do. Does anyone else see the possible conflict with FAA regulations or is this SOP?

 

[JB1842]

It's not really business related, which is were I believe they draw the line. If I still lived in Ohio, I'd jump all over that. I guess of you write the rules, you can do what you want.

 

[timwinters]

Sounds like free airplane plus $10 per hour. Pretty sweet deal. Maybe I'll erase about 1500 hours from my logbook and apply!

 

[Lindberg]

A private pilot may not carry passengers or property for compensation. I don't see anything that would prohibit a private pilot from getting paid to fly around by himself. So as long as there are no passengers, it seems legit.

ETA, They might also be paying you to log dual with a CFI.

 

[Rick Rademacher]

A private pilot may not carry passengers or property for compensation. I don't see anything that would prohibit a private pilot from getting paid to fly around by himself. So as long as there are no passengers, it seems legit.

ETA, They might also be paying you to log dual with a CFI.

Yet -> A typical private pilot flies an airplane for reasons including pleasure, personal travel and business travel. It’s not unusual for passengers or even a boss to offer the pilot money to cover the cost of the flight in the same manner as reimbursing for car expenses. While this seems reasonable, the pilot must be careful to avoid violating FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) Regulation 61.113 which prohibits a private pilot from flying for compensation or hire. The regulation is clear in its prohibition but not clear in the definition. A pilot may inadvertently violate this regulation by accepting any form of payment without recognizing when reimbursement is and is not allowed.

Terms as Applied to FAA 61.113
"Compensation" is commonly thought of as money or other exchange of services. It’s important to recognize that the FAA considers free flight time as compensation, even though there is no profit.

Maybe this is an OSU sting operation to help Michigan pilots get in trouble. Go Bucks!

 

[Witmo]

I received this today in my email ->http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event...aspx?eid=56804

**The Ohio State University, Angle of Attack (AOA), Research Study / see contact info below .Topic: Volunteer pilots needed to study the benefits of Angle of Attack Displays. Compensation for time. .Date and Time: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 , starting at 8:00 am EST Download Calendar File .Speaker(s): Mr. Marshall Pomeroy (event coordinator) .Brief Description: Who Can Participate:

1. Volunteer pilots with a private pilot certificate having between 50 - 200 hours of total flt time.

2. Time commitment is 3-6 hours. Flight time will average 2-3.5 hours. Compenasation will be based on $10/flight hour. Flight time can be logged at PIC.

3. Flights will be conducted in university aircraft. Flights will begin and end at KOSU**

So, the FAA says it is OK for a private pilot to be paid compensation of $10 per flight hour of logged PIC time and FREE flight time to participate in this study. Are they breaking their own rules? While the study might be important, the FAA should be consistent in what they say we can or can’t do. Does anyone else see the possible conflict with FAA regulations or is this SOP?

I bet there will be a CFI aboard who will be acting PIC. Otherwise I don't see where this would be legal under 61.113.

 

[Clip4]

The reg says you may not act as PIC for compensation or hire. If there is another pilot onboard acting as PIC, you may recieve the $10 an hour for participating in the study and log PIC for the time you are sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[Rick Rademacher]

The reg says you may not act as PIC for compensation or hire. If there is another pilot onboard acting as PIC, you may recieve the $10 an hour for participating in the study and log PIC for the time you are sole manipulator of the controls.

Ok, but what about the free flight time? To be safe, I would not accept the $10 per hour payment and not log any PIC time. It sounds like an interesting program to participate in if done correctly.

 

[Alexb2000]

Ron can you tell us what the administrator said about this… again?

 

[Lindberg]

The reg says you may not act as PIC [of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property] for compensation or hire.

FIFY.

§61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

A CFI providing instruction is not a passenger, even if the pilot is a rated pilot acting as PIC. An empty seat is also not a passenger. There's not enough info in the post to know whether the pilots in the study are flying alone or with an instructor, but neither would be a violation of 61.113.

 

[Witmo]

FIFY.


A CFI providing instruction is not a passenger, even if the pilot is a rated pilot acting as PIC. An empty seat is also not a passenger. There's not enough info in the post to know whether the pilots in the study are flying alone or with an instructor, but neither would be a violation of 61.113.

I disagree. Even if alone, a private pilot cannot accept compensation for being PIC. ,,,"nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft." With a CFI aboard and acting as the PIC, a private pilot could log PIC time when he was sole manipulator of the controls and be paid for it because he's not acting as PIC. Money and/or free flight time, it's compensation. With anyone else besides a CFI along, it's carrying a passenger and compensation is prohibited.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Ron can you tell us what the administrator said about this… again?

And please tell us (again) how many years you've been flying.....

 

[Jaybird180]

I say shut up, take the money, take the flight time and frame a copy of the email and the check.

 

[JeffDG]

They may be operating under an FAA waiver.

It seems they're looking for low-time pilots to determine the impact of the AOA indicators on such pilots. This type of legitimate research could well receive a waiver from the FAA for something like this for the limited purpose of research.

 

[Dr. O]

Wow, the stuff that some of you get your panties in a wad over
Do you even have a life?
sheesh

 

[Henning]

Yes, this is easily legal because you aren't being paid to fly, you are being paid for your time as a research subject evaluating an instrument, it just so happens in order to conduct that research, they need to have pilots at all levels use the instrument. There may be conflicting research rules and laws that say they have to compensate research subjects, and in the course f getting it done, it would be natural they provide the use of the plane. If anyone actually really cared about any of this, it would be no great effort for the university to get an exemption letter from the Administrator to allow it. Everybody seems to forget that all the FARs are available to be modified on a case by case basis as approved by the administrator. Universities generally have that level of pull.

 

[acrophile]

Even if alone, a private pilot cannot accept compensation for being PIC. [...]"nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

Correct.

With a CFI aboard and acting as the PIC, a private pilot could log PIC time when he was sole manipulator of the controls and be paid for it because he's not acting as PIC.

Correct.

With anyone else besides a CFI along, it's carrying a passenger and compensation is prohibited.

No, the other pilot needn't be a CFI. It could be another private pilot acting as PIC. The pilot who gets paid, solely manipulates the controls, and logs PIC time is still just a passenger.

 

[Geico266]

Wow, the stuff that some of you get your panties in a wad over
Do you even have a life?
sheesh

It's what they do, it's all they do.

 

[acrophile]

Wow, the stuff that some of you get your panties in a wad over
Do you even have a life?
sheesh

Standard Internet irony #37: person follows and posts to a thread he's not even interested in, then complains that the participants who are at least interested in the topic they're discussing are the ones lacking a life.

 

[Ted]

Sounds like they're doing it under a waiver. Looks reasonable to me, I'd be all over it if I wasn't above the hours requirement by a bit. I would take the money.

A study like this is really aimed at low-time, new pilots. Makes sense to me that they do it this way.

 

[flyingron]

A private pilot may not carry passengers or property for compensation. I don't see anything that would prohibit a private pilot from getting paid to fly around by himself. So as long as there are no passengers, it seems legit.

ETA, They might also be paying you to log dual with a CFI.

I think you need to read the regulation again:

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.​

Now if they are pilot in command, they can't receive compensation (which the FAA has entitled to mean free flight time).

However, there's an out here. While it says the pilot can log pilot in command (presumably because he is the sole manipulator), it doesn't say that during the experiment he IS the pilot in command. If he is not the pilot in command, there is no prohibition on him being compensated.

 

[timwinters]

FIFY.


A CFI providing instruction is not a passenger, even if the pilot is a rated pilot acting as PIC. An empty seat is also not a passenger. There's not enough info in the post to know whether the pilots in the study are flying alone or with an instructor, but neither would be a violation of 61.113.

The FAA has ruled that free flight time is compensation, no passenger necessary.

OTOH, the argument that a CFI is actually PIC and this it is legal if a CFI is onboard makes sense.

Or, like has been stated, they might have a waiver.

 

[paflyer]

The FAA has ruled that free flight time is compensation, no passenger necessary.

OTOH, the argument that a CFI is actually PIC and this it is legal if a CFI is onboard makes sense.

Or, like has been stated, they might have a waiver.

If you don't log the time, is it compensation?

 

[timwinters]

If you don't log the time, is it compensation?

I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head.

 

[Lindberg]

The FAA has ruled that free flight time is compensation, no passenger necessary.

OTOH, the argument that a CFI is actually PIC and this it is legal if a CFI is onboard makes sense.

Or, like has been stated, they might have a waiver.

I would argue that the nominal compensation (if that's even what is) is for participating the study acting as PIC. The quid pro quo is that you give whatever study feedback is necessary. It seems to me that it's not based on you acting as PIC, since the study's objectives don't depend on that.

The bottom line is that the faa is ok with it.

 

[gismo]

Sounds like they're doing it under a waiver. Looks reasonable to me, I'd be all over it if I wasn't above the hours requirement by a bit. I would take the money.

A study like this is really aimed at low-time, new pilots. Makes sense to me that they do it this way.

You should suggest to them that they need some "experienced" pilots in their study as a control.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, the FAA says it is OK for a private pilot to be paid compensation of $10 per flight hour of logged PIC time and FREE flight time to participate in this study.

No, the FAA Chief Counsel is not saying that. Someone at Ohio State University is saying that's what they plan to do, and I doubt anyone from the offices concerned with 14 CFR 61.113 have reviewed that posting in SPANS. I would proceed with extreme caution.

 

[azure]

Brief Description: Who Can Participate:

1. Volunteer pilots with a private pilot certificate having between 50 - 200 hours of total flt time.

I would NEVER have qualified for this.

 

[Clip4]

Ok, but what about the free flight time? To be safe, I would not accept the $10 per hour payment and not log any PIC time. It sounds like an interesting program to participate in if done correctly.

You can take free flight time as long as it is not in exchange for acting as PIC.

 

[CTLSi]

The school is following the rules, to wit.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event flight described in § 91.146, if the sponsor and pilot comply with the requirements of § 91.146.
(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and control of:
(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or
(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.
(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer.
(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of § 61.69 may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.
(h) A private pilot may act as pilot in command for the purpose of conducting a production flight test in a light-sport aircraft intended for certification in the light-sport category under § 21.190 of this chapter, provided that—
(1) The aircraft is a powered parachute or a weight-shift-control aircraft;
(2) The person has at least 100 hours of pilot-in-command time in the category and class of aircraft flown; and
(3) The person is familiar with the processes and procedures applicable to the conduct of production flight testing, to include operations conducted under a special flight permit and any associated operating limitations.


The school is a nonprofit.

 

[muecb]

The school is a nonprofit.

Except that in order to fly for a non-profit, all the requirements of 91.146 apply, including:

(9) A private pilot acting as pilot in command has at least 500 hours of flight time;

 

[Owad1971]

Except that in order to fly for a non-profit, all the requirements of 91.146 apply, including:

(9) A private pilot acting as pilot in command has at least 500 hours of flight time;

ZINNNNGGGGG!!!!!!

Filed under too good to be true. You could take the $10 and not log the time. Since you do not derive the benefit of acting as PIC (a form of compensation) in your log book you only earned lunch money for the day.

If I was local I would be all over that just for the joy of (unbooked for purposes of building time) flying...

 

[poadeleted20]

The school is following the rules, to wit.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

These flights are not "incidental" to the pilot's business or employment -- the pilots are being paid to fly the plane. "Incidental" to business/employment means you are flying only for the purpose of getting you somewhere to do your job, e.g., a salesman flying to another location to give a sales pitch. That's not what's going on here.

 

[poadeleted20]

ZINNNNGGGGG!!!!!!

Filed under too good to be true. You could take the $10 and not log the time. Since you do not derive the benefit of acting as PIC (a form of compensation) in your log book you only earned lunch money for the day.

The FAA doesn't look at it that way. See the Bobertz memo -- page 3, second sentence.

 

[CTLSi]

These flights are not "incidental" to the pilot's business or employment -- the pilots are being paid to fly the plane. "Incidental" to business/employment means you are flying only for the purpose of getting you somewhere to do your job, e.g., a salesman flying to another location to give a sales pitch. That's not what's going on here.

They can do it under the NONPROFIT clause, but as another guy went deeper in the rule and found, the PIC has to have 500 hours.

So, it looks, at least for now, that the the project is in violation if they use PP PICS with less than 500 hours.

 

[poadeleted20]

They can do it under the NONPROFIT clause,

No, they can't. I suggest a read through 91.146 on such events. This one doesn't qualify, as it is not an event which "raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization." Even if it were, the pilots could not receive any pay.

 

[Jaybird180]

These flights are not "incidental" to the pilot's business or employment -- the pilots are being paid to fly the plane. "Incidental" to business/employment means you are flying only for the purpose of getting you somewhere to do your job, e.g., a salesman flying to another location to give a sales pitch. That's not what's going on here.

Pilots are being paid as research subjects. They have the requisite skills to operate the experimental equipment safely.

 

[Clip4]

No, the FAA Chief Counsel is not saying that. Someone at Ohio State University is saying that's what they plan to do, and I doubt anyone from the offices concerned with 14 CFR 61.113 have reviewed that posting in SPANS. I would proceed with extreme caution.

What extreme cautionary measures would you employ?

 

[gismo]

Brief Description: Who Can Participate:

1. Volunteer pilots with a private pilot certificate having between 50 - 200 hours of total flt time.

I would NEVER have qualified for this.

What, you didn't become a PPL until after you had logged 200 hours of flight time?

 

[poadeleted20]

Pilots are being paid as research subjects. They have the requisite skills to operate the experimental equipment safely.

You could try that argument if you like, but I'd get the FAA's answer before doing it.