Private Pilot License, Part 61 vs. Part 141

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kiyah

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kiyah
I asked it over here Originally http://avqu.es/kiyah1

I was looking for flying schools in New York and I came across Part 61 and Part 141. I want to take flying lessons while I work fulltime. Is taking Part 61 going to cost me more money OR time? I am confused which one should I go for. Any help would be appreciated


Thanks in advance.
Kiyah
 
Kiyah, it depends upon what you intend to do with it. The 141 schools have a defined and approved curriculum, and *can* get you done a little faster (35 min hours instead of 40); in reality, for most students, the hour limits don't matter, as you're unlikely to qualify for the checkride in 40, or 35, anyway.

Tell us more about your goals - and, perhaps, about where you are.

And, by all means, let me be the first to say: "Welcome to Pilots of America - Aviation's Front Porch!" :yes:
 
The other issue with 61 vs 141 is that many funding sources like the VA and some state job training programs require that the training be conducted under Part 141. If you're tapping such a source for your training, you have no choice.

Essentially, with Part 141, you're guaranteed that the training program is more structured, and there is more FAA oversight of the operation. That is not to say that a Part 61-only school cannot be equally well-run, and most 141 schools offer training under Part 61 which is just as structured and organized as their 141 programs, but you have greater assurance of a higher standard of operation with a school which holds a 141 certificate.

Either way, you should do your "due diligence" and investigate/interview the schools you are considering and only then make your choice.
 
If you have a good and fun instructor part 61 can be better they have more flexibility. If you get average or below part 141 is a helpful crutch for both of you.
 
begin PSA

And under no circumstances whatsoever should you pre-pay for a substantial portion of your flight training. Putting a couple of hours on an account with the flight school to take advantage of discounts and simplified accounting may be acceptable, a 15k check up front is not. Flight schools come and go, some are run by unscrupulous characters who make a living out of stealing deposits from their students while stiffing the owners of the leased aircraft on their lease payments.

end PSA
 
I have done both. 141 for my private, 61 at the 141 school for my instrument and commercial, and 61 with an independent CFI for my CFI. I feel like as long as the private has structure to it it won't matter if its 61 or 141.
 
I'm at a part 141 school and looking at the stacks of training records, it's surprising to see that a majority of them have "part 61" scribbled on the front.

For me, it had to be 61 due to needing to self-teach myself most of the ground. Work schedule sucks!
 
Think about it this way:
You want to learn to play a musical instrument.
You can hire a private musical instrument instructor to teach at your own personal level of ability to receive instruction (part 61)
Or..sign up in a class where you have to keep up with a programmed ability to receive instruction . Part 141
Either way, You don't finish until you can play the musical instrument to a testing standard.

The most important ingredient in the training environment is your individual flight instructor, whether part 141 or 61.
Just like it was in school.
 
If I were seeking flight training today, I would seek out the 65 year old guy who has 200 private completions under his belt.
 
Two things matter:

1. Your learning style
2. Your commitment to getting your ticket

I'm currently returning to a Part 61 school that is rock solid, but because of the rigors of my schedule with my family and my business, I've found it difficult to both stay focused and commit to a consistent schedule of self study. I am currently in search of the "structure" that a part 141 school might offer, though my challenges are primarily on the ground school side and I will remain with my part 61 CFI. I discovered in this process, that I am no longer the self paced student I once was in college and through my professional certifications. I need more structure in learning to fly.

I eventually chose the Part 61 school after looking at a few 141 schools full of Airline Pilot wannabes who didn't enjoy teaching, but just wanted to build their hours at my expense. The 61 school I chose has two CFIs, neither of which need the money or the hours and they teach because they love it.

If you take enough time talking with CFIs and asking hard questions, you can tell who loves to teach and who's just building hours and that will make a world of difference in your studies. Good luck to you!
 
Clip4 said:
If I were seeking flight training today, I would seek out the 65 year old guy who has 200 private completions under his belt.
Click to expand...
141s have minimum standards they have to maintain, for example their checkrides pass 1st try must be >80% IIRC. The bonus is if you want to continue on after PP, you don't need the minimum hours requirements. You can go right to Instrument->Commercial without needing the X-country hours, saving you $ and time. The 141 school I went to has the option of having the student be under the 141 or 61, depending on the students commitment. They are also bigger, more planes/instructors, so if you want to go full time (2 flights a day, every day), you will be assured they can handle this. No waiting for "the" plane to come back from maintenance.
Tom
 
nosehair said:
Think about it this way:
You want to learn to play a musical instrument.
You can hire a private musical instrument instructor to teach at your own personal level of ability to receive instruction (part 61)
Or..sign up in a class where you have to keep up with a programmed ability to receive instruction . Part 141
Click to expand...
There is no such difference between 61 and 141 schools. Either can operate either way.

The most important ingredient in the training environment is your individual flight instructor, whether part 141 or 61.
Just like it was in school.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Just remember, unless you have no choice but to go part 141, the ultimate answer will be what do you think of the flight schools. There can be fantastic 141 and horrible 61 schools and vice versa. Talk to the flight instructors. If you find one you connect with, go with it. It also helps to do a discovery flight with each school. It's a pricey option but it helps in the decision making process.

These guys pretty much hit the differences. Part 141 is an FAA watched program that tends to be very structured, but don't let that fool you into thinking there isn't flexibility. I saw no difference between the way my instructors taught me 141/61. You're CFI will do what he needs to do in order for you to understand the topic. However in part 61, yes there is some more freedom. I haven't taught 141 but in 61 we can create "lessons" out of anything. I took my students to fly-ins/airshows quite often, never got a complaint. ;) Just to reiterate, talk to the schools and the instructors before you make your decision. Don't be afraid to talk to some of their clients too, they don't bite and they understand where you're coming from.
 
As for 141, if you're trying to use GI benefits or are a international student needing a visa, that's 141 all day long.

NOW, if the above doesn't apply to you, find the school 61/141 with the best instructor and the best priced airplane (in that order) and go from there.

The biggest thing that's going to save you money is finding a good CFI that you hit it off with, interview the instructors at each school and go from there.

Also don't let them try to sell you on "glass panels" and "newest planes in the area" at your point in training it ain't going to make a difference. I'd go for a solid but older 150 or taldragger 7ECA for the least amount of money.


The minimum hours thing is just marketing, national average is more like 60hrs for the private ether way.

So to recap
Find a good CFI
Find a cheap but solid plane
Have fun!!!
 
teejayevans said:
141s have minimum standards they have to maintain, .....
Click to expand...

But

teejayevans said:
..... You can go right to Instrument->Commercial without needing the X-country hours, saving you $ and time.
Click to expand...

The problem is you actually DO NEED those x-country hours to be a proficient new CPL

Thats alway amused me.

Keeping that quality up lol!

Those x-country hours are WHERE YOU LEARN THE MOST about systems, weather, pilotage, ATC, CRM, decision making skills, nav, etc

As the OP said he is only working on his PPL this is not relivent to him, however for a good commerical pilot you NEED those x-country experiences. It's like that "deal" riddle worked out with the Feds on being able to give their students a "restricted ATP" with only 1,000hrs vs the normal 1,500 everyone else needs to have. Less experience is not better and most companies look at it the same way.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
But
The problem is you actually DO NEED those x-country hours to be a proficient new CPL
Click to expand...
But you can do that while you continue your training...it doesn't have to be step 1 PP, step 2 X-CTRY, step 3 IR....
You can overlap, acquiring x-ctry experience while getting your instrument, complex, high performance, multi-engine, commercial....in the end you still need seat time, it just allows a student to get it in the shortest time.
Tom
 
I did all my xc pic in one summer combined with solo insurance minimums, I needed 50hrs in my plane before I could carry pax so I flew short xcs a lot. I learned more on those than any other 50 hour time period. I think its extremely important. I also did some real ifr xcs with a cfi and learned from those. If you don't have that time you shouldn't have an instrument rating IMO.
 
teejayevans said:
141s have minimum standards they have to maintain, for example their checkrides pass 1st try must be >80% IIRC.
Click to expand...

Only if that's what they wrote into their curriculum that the FAA approved. I may be wrong but I know of no other legal requirement for such.
 
weilke said:
begin PSA

And under no circumstances whatsoever should you pre-pay for a substantial portion of your flight training. Putting a couple of hours on an account with the flight school to take advantage of discounts and simplified accounting may be acceptable, a 15k check up front is not. Flight schools come and go, some are run by unscrupulous characters who make a living out of stealing deposits from their students while stiffing the owners of the leased aircraft on their lease payments.

end PSA
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:


That is not to say, however, that there aren't a good number of very reputable flight schools that require an up-front "tuition" that are safe investments.

If you do encounter a school that asks for up-front payment, do your due diligence before writing a check. :yes:


Mike
 
teejayevans said:
141s have minimum standards they have to maintain, for example their checkrides pass 1st try must be >80% IIRC. The bonus is if you want to continue on after PP, you don't need the minimum hours requirements. You can go right to Instrument->Commercial without needing the X-country hours, saving you $ and time. The 141 school I went to has the option of having the student be under the 141 or 61, depending on the students commitment. They are also bigger, more planes/instructors, so if you want to go full time (2 flights a day, every day), you will be assured they can handle this. No waiting for "the" plane to come back from maintenance.
Tom
Click to expand...

I meet plenty of young CFIs these days who are $60,000 in debt for a COMM SEL/MEL CFII SEL/MEL who are rather poor instructors. The same guys teaching new pilots who also will become instructors. If they graduated All ATPs, they don't even have a high performance endorsement when they are done. So excuse me if I am not impressed with the 141 product.
 
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teejayevans said:
Sure, why not?? Why drag it out 1 lesson per week when you can do 2 or 3 a day, probably better do it that way. To each his own I guess.
Tom
Click to expand...

You can't buy experiance, less experiance is how 141s, in part, graduate pilots faster.
 
Clip4 said:
I meet plenty of young CFIs these days who are $60,000 in debt for a COMM SEL/MEL CFII SEL/MEL who are rather poor instructors. The same guys teaching new pilots who also will become instructors. If they graduated all ATPs, they don't even have a high performance endorsement when they are done. So excuse me if I am not impressed with the 141 product.
Click to expand...
How do you know they are all poor instructors, did you take lessons from them??

My personal experience is with a 141 school, I had 2 different full time instructors for my PP/IR, and the chief instructor filled in when they were not available. I thought all were excellent, and none were young.
Doesn't mean all 141s are excellent or even all instructors in this school are, but the ones I had were. And when one plane was down for maintenance, I never had to stop my training, just took another plane off the line.
I'm not sure how you can be an ATP without the HP endorsement, but my school at complex/HP, dual engine, but no jets, no sports
Tom
 
teejayevans said:
How do you know they are all poor instructors, did you take lessons from them?
Click to expand...

Maybe I am one of many CFIs who are giving them the instruction they need for a HP endorsement and evaluated how the fly. All of them are not poor instructors, and I did not say they were. Pleny are just a product of the pilot mill.
 
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Clip4 said:
You can't buy experiance, less experiance is how 141s, in part, graduate pilots faster.
Click to expand...
And experience doesn't mean somebody is good. How many NTSB reports do we see where a experience pilot makes basic mistakes?? And older pilot is not necessary better than a younger pilot?? And 61 doesn't make you better than 141.
Tom
 
teejayevans said:
Sure, why not?? Why drag it out 1 lesson per week when you can do 2 or 3 a day, probably better do it that way. To each his own I guess.
Tom
Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with 141 vs 61, though. You can certainly do accelerated training via Part 61.
 
teejayevans said:
I'm not sure how you can be an ATP without the HP endorsement
Click to expand...

Pretty easily I'd think. 172 for your Private and Instrument, 172RG for your Commercial, Seminole for your Comm-ME, time build in whatever you want, ATP in the same Seminole. Probably pretty routine at the big pilot mills.
 
teejayevans said:
And experience doesn't mean somebody is good. How many NTSB reports do we see where a experience pilot makes basic mistakes?? And older pilot is not necessary better than a younger pilot?? And 61 doesn't make you better than 141.
Tom
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I flew with a co-worker on a 24 leg trip all over Florida 5 years ago in the summer (Obvious IMC season). He did his PPL and IR training at a prominent 141 school that will remain nameless. He was a good pilot; handled the airplane (G-1000 equipped C-172) well and I believe he was safe. We flew the trip in a professional manner sharing duties and cross checking each other.

What surprised me is that I, without an IR had more real-world IFR knowledge than this fully Instrument Rated pilot. There was an entire list of things he had NO IDEA how to do. That list is as follows:

Didn't know how to file an airway (I had to file all flight plans)
Didn't know how to pick up a pop-up clearance when weather starts to come down (I did this on one of our legs)
Didn't know how to handle a SID or a STAR if given (always wrote "no sid / no star" on flight plan)
Didn't know how to pick up an IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airport
Had never used fltplan.com or any other system to help find the ideal routing or file a flight plan
We had a vacuum pump failure during the trip and he said out loud that the altimeter would be unusable
Had NO IDEA how to put his flight plan in the G-1000 or how to arm and activate an approach in the GPS

I think the list was longer, but that was enough to make me never want to do any training at a 141 school. That may be a bit of an overreaction but it was my first and only experience with the product of a moderately reputed 141 school.

The pilot himself learned on that trip how short-changed he was. I say again he is a safe pilot. Wouldn't take his kids flying in IMC conditions without bringing another pilot along. So he makes good decisions in my opinion.
 
Some of that list is due to the insistence of many 141 schools on using dispatchers to simulate airline procedures, I think. A lot of those IFR details a single-pilot IR rated person faces, are lost when you're handed a canned flight plan and told that you're "released" to go fly it as written. Just my guess.
 
denverpilot said:
Some of that list is due to the insistence of many 141 schools on using dispatchers to simulate airline procedures, I think. A lot of those IFR details a single-pilot IR rated person faces, are lost when you're handed a canned flight plan and told that you're "released" to go fly it as written. Just my guess.
Click to expand...

That would explain some of it, but you would also think being able to perform a SID/STAR would be taught since they are used a lot in airline world. Systems is high on the airline list as well.
 
Clip4 said:
That would explain some of it, but you would also think being able to perform a SID/STAR would be taught since they are used a lot in airline world. Systems is high on the airline list as well.
Click to expand...

I wonder if they don't focus on that in the CPL syllabus. Just a thought. But you're right. The airlines fly airways too. LOL
 
RussR said:
That has nothing to do with 141 vs 61, though. You can certainly do accelerated training via Part 61.
Click to expand...

I completed my Commercial, Instrument, CFII in less than three months at a part 61 school. My very first formal ground school was systems class on a jet at my first 121 job. I started working on the advanced ratings after logging ~200 hours as a private pilot over the course of about 18 months.

Saved a ton of money compared to a puppy mill 141 program. Had a lot of fun in that first 200 hours flying where and when I wanted. Not where the program wanted me to go. 141 is ok I guess. I believe the reduced experience requirements are misplaced faith by the industry that "structured" training is better.

I have flown with pilots in the airline industry that have never flown just for the fun of it. Every time they have flown was under a supervised operation in a flight training program or a Ops Spec at the airline. They were ok at manipulating the controls. Not so good at being an aircraft commander and working the the crew as a leader. Too busy looking up what to do next in the FOM to be good at their job.

Obviously not everyone from the 141 track can be described this way.....But people with the mentality I am describing have a really hard time getting their ratings from a 61 program because there is a lot more individual effort to keep the training program on track in comparision to a 141 program. 141 In my opinion allows people with lower professional standards to buy their way into cockpits.

Just my opinion on the deal.
 
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