Printed Nautical Charts Out. Sectionals Next?

tinerj

tinerj

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
1,350
Display Name
Display name:
tinerj
From the NOAA site: Effective April 13, 2014, the federal government will no longer print lithographic nautical charts. ... and ... Coast Survey creates and updates traditional paper charts, which are printed by the Federal Aviation Administration.

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/paperchart.html

I understand it was the FAA that informed NOAA that to save money they are going to stop printing the charts. (The FAA began printing NOAA's charts several years ago.)
 
The market place has spoken,now that there are several providers of both nautical and aviation charts . The government has decided to let providers compete for their customers. We can also thank the IPad and portable.gos systems.
 
So Pete Flemming was a visionary after all. Maybe he can pass his checkride now :goofy:
 
What is interesting about this announcement is that it is 2 years ahead of schedule. As of a year ago, the govt had previously targeted 2016 as the end of printed paper charts. I suspect that the demand from shipping companies had already fallen off significantly enough that it made sense to move up the date.
 
If sectionals go away will we be required to have a tablet in the cockpit?:goofy:
 
What am I going to use to wrap my Christmas presents? And decorate my "airplane room."
 
tinerj said:
From the NOAA site: Effective April 13, 2014, the federal government will no longer print lithographic nautical charts. ... and ... Coast Survey creates and updates traditional paper charts, which are printed by the Federal Aviation Administration.

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/paperchart.html

I understand it was the FAA that informed NOAA that to save money they are going to stop printing the charts. (The FAA began printing NOAA's charts several years ago.)
Click to expand...

Is the cost really in the printing? I'd guess it is in the data collection, data verification, and map making. By map making, I mean someone has to do the actual mapwork to create either the printed version or the electronic version.

But at the end of the day, I hate to lose sectionals. I find them to be a much better flight planning tool than any of the other tools at my disposal via the iPad and other "technical" means.
 
frfly172 said:
The market place has spoken,now that there are several providers of both nautical and aviation charts .
Click to expand...
The market has indeed spoken, but this is not because other providers are making nautical charts. It is because the demand for paper nautical charts has fallen off significantly. The merchant shipping companies have shifted ECDIS. Not only does the integrated chart/radar display make navigation much easier, but the labor involved in maintains the chart inventories and chart corrections is nearly eliminated.

The Navy is the other big consumer and we are already on record as saying that once they stop printing these things, we will eliminate the requirement to carry them.

Unlike sectionals, with nautical charts, the commercial and military sectors represent probably greater than 95% of the demand. If 95% of your consumers font need the charts, then it just makes fiscal sense to stop printing.

I think sectionals will be around a bit longer (but not indefinitely) since GA is the largest consumer of those products and the demand is still there.
 
kyleb said:
Is the cost really in the printing? I'd guess it is in the data collection, data verification, and map making. By map making, I mean someone has to do the actual mapwork to create either the printed version or the electronic version.
Click to expand...
The data collection verification and chart creation all still continues - you need all of that for digital charts. The cost of printing is really the only thing you can cut and as the demand drops the cost per chart will only up up to the point where no one is buying.
 
Not necessarily a Sectional but a TAC or Helicopter route chart IS required when flying the NY Hudson/East River Class B Exclusions. So I guess a tablet will be required in some instances.

__________________
In BOTH Exclusions

• Airspeed [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]- Not more than 140 knots [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]• [/FONT][/FONT]Anti-colllision lights [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]- ON [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]• [/FONT][/FONT]Aircraft position/navigation lights [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]-ON [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]• [/FONT][/FONT]Landing lights [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]- ON (recommended) [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]• [/FONT][/FONT]New York TAC or Helicopter Route Chart [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]– Onboard (current edition) [/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
Fearless Tower said:
The data collection verification and chart creation all still continues - you need all of that for digital charts. The cost of printing is really the only thing you can cut and as the demand drops the cost per chart will only up up to the point where no one is buying.
Click to expand...

That was my unstated point. The only cost that goes away when we stop printing sectionals is the actual printing and distribution cost. The real cost is all the other stuff.
 
Not really sure why a chart is required to be onboard? By the time I enter the Hudson or East River exclusion, I've studied the chart thoroughly, written down and entered all the appropriate frequencies and memorized all of the mandatory reporting points.

I have no need to pull out a chart while flying the exclusions.:dunno:
 
timwinters said:
Not unless something bad happens during the flight.
Click to expand...

If "bad" means I'm lost then ok. Otherwise the last thing I'm going to do is study a sectional while my wings are icing up or my engine is falling to the ground.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Well, are you currently required to have a sectional in the cockpit?
Click to expand...

It may not always have to be a sectional, but sometimes charts are required. In addition to the examples mentioned by others, if you are operating under Subpart F or K of part 91, or under Part 121 or 135, you are required to have pertinent charts. (This may not be a complete list.)

If you are operating under other sections of Part 91, it depends on how well you can remember "all available information" concerning your flight.
 
What are all the CFI's going to do now? Most demand no GPS in the cock pit and must have paper charts. In the last 10 years that has been a silly way to train. ;)

I can't tell you how many arguments I have had with CFI that banned GPS's for student. Just plain silly. :yes:
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
What are all the CFI's going to do now? Most demand no GPS in the cock pit and must have paper charts. In the last 10 years that has been a silly way to train. ;)
Click to expand...
Pilots are just going to have to record the paper dinosaurs then shame them for their antiquated ways on the interweb.:D
 
Palmpilot said:
If you are operating under other sections of Part 91, it depends on how well you can remember "all available information" concerning your flight.
Click to expand...

This is probably the most often mis-quoted reg: It is not "all available information concerning your flight" but "all available information concerning the safety of your flight." Some flights do not require as much information as others.

Anyway, with a paper sectional, all available information is not available. But with digital flight software it generally is.
 
Well, the government quit printing US nautical charts because the files change weekly and we get the most current up to date ones printed from retail outlets on demand, NOAA still provides those files. Some vessels/shipping companies even carry an A0 printer to keep up to date corrected charts on their vessels that aren't ECDIS equipped (you don't want to know how much the equipment to eliminate paper charts onboard costs,:yikes: makes aviation stuff look cheap) and most recreational users have electronic chart plotters and buy bound chart books for their back up. NOAA only printed the US charts anyway, DMA printed the rest of the world, I'm curious as to their printing schedule since the military has moved away from paper as well.
 
redtail said:
Not really sure why a chart is required to be onboard?
Click to expand...

I suspect it's because that's where the rules for the SFRA and the transitions are published.

At least, it's so for the LA TAC.

These are things like frequencies to monitor, what to squawk, and specifics on route and altitude.

And if LAX suddenly switches from easterly approaches to westerly due to a wind shift, the available transitions change.
 
timwinters said:
FTFY...
Click to expand...

I'm with Geico on this. Once the CFI is satisfied that the student can navigate via dead reckoning and pilotage there's no reason to not train him how to use a GPS. To me it's just an extension of the training process.

I learned to fly in the pre-GPS days and can't tell you how much more comfortable I am flying w/ the GPS. I still keep track of where I am on the sectional, but GPS is awesome.
 
tinerj said:
This is probably the most often mis-quoted reg: It is not "all available information concerning your flight" but "all available information concerning the safety of your flight."
Click to expand...

That's not the way my copy of 91.103 reads.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...6e977b39e50&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.2&rgn=div8

Some flights do not require as much information as others.

Anyway, with a paper sectional, all available information is not available. But with digital flight software it generally is.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
Gerhardt said:
I'm with Geico on this. Once the CFI is satisfied that the student can navigate via dead reckoning and pilotage there's no reason to not train him how to use a GPS. To me it's just an extension of the training process.

I learned to fly in the pre-GPS days and can't tell you how much more comfortable I am flying w/ the GPS. I still keep track of where I am on the sectional, but GPS is awesome.
Click to expand...

Knowing how to use a GPS is important enough, and the user interfaces are complicated enough, that I would say that it is negligent not to teach it at some point in the curriculum.
 
tinerj said:
This is probably the most often mis-quoted reg: It is not "all available information concerning your flight" but "all available information concerning the safety of your flight." Some flights do not require as much information as others.
Click to expand...

The word "safety" does not appear in 91.103.
 
There are plenty of private companies the print paper charts in the nautical world, assuming FAA allows it, somebody will pick up the slack
Also, paper charts are great for planning

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Palmpilot said:
Knowing how to use a GPS is important enough, and the user interfaces are complicated enough, that I would say that it is negligent not to teach it at some point in the curriculum.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree and teach the use of EFBs after the student has demonstrated a solid understanding of the "old school" way of doing things. Their first x-c is done with paper. After that they can use the EFB (which most do.)

As long as the FAA requires those traditional skills, they will be taught.
 
Even though the FAA has announced they are out of the printing business, there are others who do print the AV Charts. I recall seeing charts in the case at Dare County Airport from another company. Unfortunately, I didn't capture the name but I'm sure a quick call would solve that problem.
I'm not up to carrying yet another piece of electronics with me just yet.
 
The biggest impact will probably be on cost. Private companies printing charts will have to keep the operation above break-even.
 
Without the printing, keeping the existing sectionals, plates, facility diagrams, etc., current comes to about $5.00 per pilot per year.

Creating entirely new approaches would add to that, but is that part of the FAA under a different budget?
 
silver-eagle said:
Even though the FAA has announced they are out of the printing business, there are others who do print the AV Charts. I recall seeing charts in the case at Dare County Airport from another company. Unfortunately, I didn't capture the name but I'm sure a quick call would solve that problem.
I'm not up to carrying yet another piece of electronics with me just yet.
Click to expand...

Probably DuraCharts....nice product.
http://www.duracharts.com
 
My understanding of how nautical 'charts' are distributed is that the data is free to download, and conforms to a defined standard. The user can choose their reader software-hardware combination, which ranges from free and basic to blinged-out. I actually like that solution. Consider we've already paid at the pump for the chartography through avgas excise tax, and the cost of digital distribution is vanishingly small.

If only IFR data were disseminated in such a way...
 
silver-eagle said:
Funny you should mention them. I just ordered the May 2014 BOS TAC and Sectional. Saves me a couple of bucks over the local pilot shop. AOPA/EAA/CAP discounts as well.
PIREP?
Click to expand...

Our FBO switched over to them from the govt charts which were getting problematic to stock. The reproduction quality is better and they're printed on sine type of plasticized material that is almost indestructible.

And they're no more costly than the regular charts, as I recall.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top