Pricing aircraft from a seller's perspective

[Tom-D]

How does a seller price their aircraft?

In my case I have a 1948 Cessna that is practically new. both in appearance and maintenance.

should I price it lower than all the new parts can be bought for?

Is it worth less than the parts, labor, material that brought it to this condition?

 

[Jim_R]

How does a seller price anything?

Value is relative. A thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

 

[F01LA]

I guess it depends on your reason for "pricing" the aircraft. Just for kicks to tell yourself how much it is worth?

Or are you talking about actually wanting to sell the thing? In that case, it depends on how much you really want to sell it. If you want to sell it this decade, you should probably forget the price of the new parts -- that's irrelevant. Same with the parts, labor, and material put into it-- irrelevant.

Instead, price the airplane at a level that buyers will consider it in the current market. Comps may help, if you can get them. Looks like new? Great. That will probably put it near the top in pricing for that model. That still may be much less than you have in it.

In many places in the U.S., you can buy used houses for considerably less than it costs to build new. Cost of the parts that make it up doesn't matter. Sure, they may have poured money into that kitchen remodel, bathroom, flooring, etc. But their numbers are irrelevant when they go to sell it. Like Jim said, it's only worth what someone will pay for it.

 

[wabower]

What did you learn from the last one?

 

[RotorAndWing]

What did you learn from the last one?

 

[poadeleted21]

Is it worth less than the parts, labor, material that brought it to this condition?

Safe money is on YES.

 

[Tom-D]

What did you learn from the last one?

What does that have to do with the question?

 

[Tom-D]

Safe money is on YES.

Now do you understand why there is junk on the market?

no one is willing to pay for what they want, new new new cheap.

is it worth buying cheap, and coping with the mechanical problems, missing flights, worrying about safety?

the adage applies here, pay me now or pay me later.

when you want the best, be willing to pay for it.

 

[Henning]

Now do you understand why there is junk on the market?

no one is willing to pay for what they want, new new new cheap.

is it worth buying cheap, and coping with the mechanical problems, missing flights, worrying about safety?

the adage applies here, pay me now or pay me later.

when you want the best, be willing to pay for it.

That does not coincide with 'free market economics'. But then 'free market economics' causes frequent economic collapses because people are stupid.

 

[NoHeat]

How does a seller price their aircraft?

Rather often, with unjustified optimism.

 

[wabower]

At which point the question of "what's the best?" will be debated. When that happens, you don't hold all the cards.

The market thinks the B-models are far better than the others, as do some of the old-time owners and mechanics. You continue to maintain that the 48's are better. I don't think you can win that argument, especially as to value.

Nor do I think the world will line up at your door for a fabric-wing airplane. Whether merited or not, the market is skittish about them.

If your statements about engine life in the other thread accurately reflect your opinion, I think you can expect a "you're number 1" response from some otherwise-interested prospects.

In spite of your opinion that rebuilt is better than original, many people prefer original, no damage, etc. and don't want one of those rebuilt old wrecks as their plane.

Unless you understand and accept that your prior post presents an extremely one-sided and somewhat unrealistic and inaccurate view of value, I think you should reasonably expect another long haul dealing with the tire-kickers that seem to flock to your place.

But since it's the airplane market, Paul Allen may show up tomorrow, pay whatever you're asking and fly it home. You won't know until you advertise it.

Now do you understand why there is junk on the market?

no one is willing to pay for what they want, new new new cheap.

is it worth buying cheap, and coping with the mechanical problems, missing flights, worrying about safety?

the adage applies here, pay me now or pay me later.

when you want the best, be willing to pay for it.

 

[DavidWhite]

I may be interested depending on the price point.

 

[Tom-D]

At which point the question of "what's the best?" will be debated. When that happens, you don't hold all the cards.

The market thinks the B-models are far better than the others, as do some of the old-time owners and mechanics. You continue to maintain that the 48's are better. I don't think you can win that argument, especially as to value.

Nor do I think the world will line up at your door for a fabric-wing airplane. Whether merited or not, the market is skittish about them.

If your statements about engine life in the other thread accurately reflect your opinion, I think you can expect a "you're number 1" response from some otherwise-interested prospects.

In spite of your opinion that rebuilt is better than original, many people prefer original, no damage, etc. and don't want one of those rebuilt old wrecks as their plane.

Unless you understand and accept that your prior post presents an extremely one-sided and somewhat unrealistic and inaccurate view of value, I think you should reasonably expect another long haul dealing with the tire-kickers that seem to flock to your place.

But since it's the airplane market, Paul Allen may show up tomorrow, pay whatever you're asking and fly it home. You won't know until you advertise it.

I used my aircraft as an example, only.

That's not the point of the question.

 

[Tom-D]

I may be interested depending on the price point.

It's not finished, thus not for sale, and won't be for a while.

I already have offers that will drop the jaws of the folks here.

If you like a 170 I have a deal for you at 32k and some sweat.

 

[wabower]

There's no point to most of your questions, so that's no surprise.

I used my aircraft as an example, only.

That's not the point of the question.

 

[poadeleted21]

Now do you understand why there is junk on the market?

no one is willing to pay for what they want, new new new cheap.

is it worth buying cheap, and coping with the mechanical problems, missing flights, worrying about safety?

the adage applies here, pay me now or pay me later.

when you want the best, be willing to pay for it.

I never knew that I didn't understand.

 

[frfly172]

I thought the question was how to price an aircraft. I would do some comps on similar aircraft if possible. Also check out type club pages to get an idea. Also look at sites like barnstormer .

 

[poadeleted21]

I thought the question was how to price an aircraft. I would do some comps on similar aircraft if possible. Also check out type club pages to get an idea. Also look at sites like barnstormer .

Just post it in the POA classifieds section. Doesn't really matter what you price it at, everyone will love it.

 

[wabower]

I have already changed my text enhancer's auto-response from "Dude. YGBSM" to "Gee whilllikers, a ________ for only ________! It's a beauty! "

But I'll somewhat abashedly admit that I looked through TAP electronic and Barnstormer briefly last night, just to confirm the impression that 170 ask prices have dropped significantly along with the others.

Cirrusly, the most-effective perspective for a seller is to act like a buyer when listing his plane. Do the market research, scour all the websites, typeclub-sites, magazines, bulletin boards and other listing sources.

Chart the ads for +/- adjustments for comparisons and basically out-work the buyers regarding the current opportunities and pricing. Sellers should know that buyers might blow a little smoke too, and being a step ahead regarding the competition is never a bad thing.

They should also know that the lowest advertised number in any publication will automatically become the buyer's perception of the market, and that the buyer will always want that price (minus something due to his superior negotiating skills *snort*) for whatever he decides to chase.

The best way to do any/all of it is with a cheerful demeanor, a smile on your face and a positive approach. "I saw your ad, it looks like a nice one" is guaranteed to produce a more positive conversation than "What's the least you'll take for that POS?" that some buyers seem to prefer.

Just post it in the POA classifieds section. Doesn't really matter what you price it at, everyone will love it.

 

[Tom-D]

Adding up the costs of having a simple C-172 restored will look very close to this.

complete strip and paint including a rebalance of flight controls, corrosion control work, 5 new pieces of glass. = 15-20k, overhaul of the 0-300 = 24k, new custom leather and wool interior = 7-10k, add all the up grades like oil filter = $250, "P" ponk gear kit = $250, strobe lighting kit = $1000, alternator = $1100, new prop = $2600, cleveland wheel and brake kit = $1500.

and you folks think it could be bought for less than the total cost of the parts and labor.

now you know why the aging fleet is in the condition it is.

it's simply a matter of buyer's attitude that makes it impossible to do this work.

 

[bnt83]

Adding up the costs of having a simple C-172 restored will look very close to this.

complete strip and paint including a rebalance of flight controls, corrosion control work, 5 new pieces of glass. = 15-20k, overhaul of the 0-300 = 24k, new custom leather and wool interior = 7-10k, add all the up grades like oil filter = $250, "P" ponk gear kit = $250, strobe lighting kit = $1000, alternator = $1100, new prop = $2600, cleveland wheel and brake kit = $1500.

and you folks think it could be bought for less than the total cost of the parts and labor.

now you know why the aging fleet is in the condition it is.

it's simply a matter of buyer's attitude that makes it impossible to do this

work.

I can spend $30k on a 172 or 99k on a 172. They both do pretty much the same thing....

 

[Henning]

Adding up the costs of having a simple C-172 restored will look very close to this.

complete strip and paint including a rebalance of flight controls, corrosion control work, 5 new pieces of glass. = 15-20k, overhaul of the 0-300 = 24k, new custom leather and wool interior = 7-10k, add all the up grades like oil filter = $250, "P" ponk gear kit = $250, strobe lighting kit = $1000, alternator = $1100, new prop = $2600, cleveland wheel and brake kit = $1500.

and you folks think it could be bought for less than the total cost of the parts and labor.

now you know why the aging fleet is in the condition it is.

it's simply a matter of buyer's attitude that makes it impossible to do this work.

It's why the market is full of crap, nobody will spend a dime on their plane they don't have to because there is no recovery. Those that do spend money on their plane end up keeping them.

 

[bnt83]

Plus, Ive never had a potential passenger hesitate from an old interior or ratty paint.

 

[bnt83]

Those that do spend money on their plane end up keeping them.

Exactly or risk taking a big loss at sale.

 

[bnt83]

If I was in David shoes, I'd be keeping th mooney, but perhaps there's a big can of worms which I don't know about.

Mags repaired, new landing gear wear items, alternator?, new prop. There ain't much left..

 

[Alexb2000]

Since most people tend to buy and sell a lot more cars than airplanes in their lifetime I like to use those analogies. Ask any dealer what your car is worth with a new transmission. The answer is: the same as it was the day before your transmission went out. Of course that never jives with a seller and this great debate continues. Who here has sold a car that they put a lot of work into for the total cost of all the things they fixed plus market value?

That said: IMO there are time dependent items on aircraft like engines and props, that probably do add more value when freshly overhauled. Of course not what the seller paid and usually subject to some variables like factory motor vs. name brand motor vs. local A&P motor.

Something like corrosion work IMO has to be done to sell the aircraft for more than scrap price, but ads no value. The mere fact it had to be done decreases the value vs. a pristine example.

 

[skidoo]

There must not be enough A/C out there for sale, because it seems every couple weeks or so, I get a card in the mail from some broker wanting to buy my plane or otherwise list it with them. Although one never knows what some day will bring, I have never responded to any of them...

 

[N747JB]

In your example the sum of the parts and repairs is roughly $60K, the plane you described, might sell for $60K, assuming the avionics are good. The problem is that your example would need a $0 airframe cost.
That's why folks buy planes already done, or only needing one major item. Unless it's some rare collectible, refurbishing old common airplanes seems like a good way to make a fortune small.

Adding up the costs of having a simple C-172 restored will look very close to this.

complete strip and paint including a rebalance of flight controls, corrosion control work, 5 new pieces of glass. = 15-20k, overhaul of the 0-300 = 24k, new custom leather and wool interior = 7-10k, add all the up grades like oil filter = $250, "P" ponk gear kit = $250, strobe lighting kit = $1000, alternator = $1100, new prop = $2600, cleveland wheel and brake kit = $1500.

and you folks think it could be bought for less than the total cost of the parts and labor.

now you know why the aging fleet is in the condition it is.

it's simply a matter of buyer's attitude that makes it impossible to do this work.

 

[wabower]

Hey, boy! Yeah, you! Zackly what is it that you don't you understand about "that's what I've got in it?" Which word is giving you the problem? Sheesh.

and not only that, that's what they're selling for in Tradeaplane,, that's what it's worth to me, I know what they're worth and I figure it only takes on buyer at my price. Damn tire-kickers, anyway. *snort* You kids get offa my lawn.

Since most people tend to buy and sell a lot more cars than airplanes in their lifetime I like to use those analogies. Ask any dealer what your car is worth with a new transmission. The answer is: the same as it was the day before your transmission went out. Of course that never jives with a seller and this great debate continues. Who here has sold a car that they put a lot of work into for the total cost of all the things they fixed plus market value?

That said: IMO there are time dependent items on aircraft like engines and props, that probably do add more value when freshly overhauled. Of course not what the seller paid and usually subject to some variables like factory motor vs. name brand motor vs. local A&P motor.

Something like corrosion work IMO has to be done to sell the aircraft for more than scrap price, but ads no value. The mere fact it had to be done decreases the value vs. a pristine example.

 

[Tom-D]

Since most people tend to buy and sell a lot more cars than airplanes in their lifetime I like to use those analogies. Ask any dealer what your car is worth with a new transmission. The answer is: the same as it was the day before your transmission went out. Of course that never jives with a seller and this great debate continues. Who here has sold a car that they put a lot of work into for the total cost of all the things they fixed plus market value?

That said: IMO there are time dependent items on aircraft like engines and props, that probably do add more value when freshly overhauled. Of course not what the seller paid and usually subject to some variables like factory motor vs. name brand motor vs. local A&P motor.

Something like corrosion work IMO has to be done to sell the aircraft for more than scrap price, but ads no value. The mere fact it had to be done decreases the value vs. a pristine example.

I guess you don't watch " Counting Cars"

 

[Ken Ibold]

There's a guy in Tennessee who, for a while, was buying low time Navajos and Chieftains and essentially remanufacturing them. All new everything, down to the wiring and air conditioning duct work. Five years ago he was asking a million bucks for them. Sold a few. Now, not so much.

Put enough new parts on anything and eventually the sum of the parts will exceed the sum of the total. Very anti-Gestalt. Airplanes have been like that for some time. The GA market is like the automobile market in Cuba. Keep it running, keep it running, keep it running.

Screw that. Buy new. Create some good, quality used airplanes for other people to buy from you.

 

[ronnieh]

I think Mike has done pretty well. He now owns the Colemill STC. As far as I can tell he is still doing at least fair business. Now that he owns the STC he might be in a position to do even better.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I think Mike has done pretty well. He now owns the Colemill STC. As far as I can tell he is still doing at least fair business. Now that he owns the STC he might be in a position to do even better.

And the aircraft he turns out are very sweet, indeed. I went over a few of them with a fine tooth comb and was very impressed. In a way, he's in the same boat as Tom, though. The market does not appear to value the craftsmanship as much as perhaps it should.

 

[Henning]

And the aircraft he turns out are very sweet, indeed. I went over a few of them with a fine tooth comb and was very impressed. In a way, he's in the same boat as Tom, though. The market does not appear to value the craftsmanship as much as perhaps it should.

It's not just the market, it's our society in general. We live in a disposable society.

 

[wabower]

Where's the business located now that CF is closed?

I think Mike has done pretty well. He now owns the Colemill STC. As far as I can tell he is still doing at least fair business. Now that he owns the STC he might be in a position to do even better.

 

[Alexb2000]

Hey, boy! Yeah, you! Zackly what is it that you don't you understand about "that's what I've got in it?" Which word is giving you the problem? Sheesh.

and not only that, that's what they're selling for in Tradeaplane,, that's what it's worth to me, I know what they're worth and I figure it only takes on buyer at my price. Damn tire-kickers, anyway. *snort* You kids get offa my lawn.

My favorite.... I'm only asking what I owe the bank.

I guess you don't watch " Counting Cars"

I have! I plan to make a fortune buying Rancheros and turning them into pool tables.

 

[ronnieh]

Wayne, he is at Murfreesboro, TN.

 

[comanchepilot]

what do you think its worth?

Now you admitted that its not 'finished' so its not 'brnad new inside and out.'

C'mon, really? Thats the basic seller's problem, they think they have a cherry beast and they really have lipstick on a pig.

You might have a wonderful 65 year old example of a sought after Cessna airplane - that would be great.

I have a decent, well-maintained version of a sought after 1971 airplane. If I put a 1971 Comanche 260C on the market with a run out engine needing a prop soon for $125000 I probably would get no interest and no 6 figure offers. Even with leather seats, newer carpet, an untorn headliner, maintenance done by a known quality Comanche mechanic, the tail AD done, recent hoses, a 530, GPSS, Stec 60-2 an HSI and a radar altimeter - but if I price it at $75000 I am going to have a line out the door and may get more than asking price.

In my experience, if I price anything I am selling under market, you generate lots of interest, and a few offers and generally get more than you are asking. . . .

 

[wabower]

I wish I had kept track of my trips to CF. Well more than 500 over 20+ years.

Captain Paulo's catfish joint was just a few miles away, best in Nashville with nobody else even close. All locals, in wrong part of town for tourists.

All fiddlers, all brushed with mustard and dredged in Goldendipt cornmeal batter. Some good, I guar-on-tee.

Wayne, he is at Murfreesboro, TN.

 

[Tom-D]

Now you admitted that its not 'finished' so its not 'brnad new inside and out.'.

Did you note that it is only an example? and not for sale?

It's as close to new as any can be, plus with all the upgrades, is it better than new?