Preservation of uninstalled parts.

Tarheelpilot said:
I never said there was one. I dint think there would be one for engines not installed. What rule are you talking about?
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I wasn’t disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that there is no regulations on an engine installed on an aircraft more than x amount of time, at least for part 91. Given that, I’m wondering why someone would think there would be a time based regulation on engines not on an aircraft. The engine is either airworthy, or it isn’t.
 
Salty said:
I wasn’t disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that there is no regulations on an engine installed on an aircraft more than x amount of time, at least for part 91. Given that, I’m wondering why someone would think there would be a time based regulation on engines not on an aircraft. The engine is either airworthy, or it isn’t.
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Ohh. My apologies. Still waking up and i didn’t get that at all.

All I can come up with is non mechanics making assumptions, throw in a little pilot arrogance and It’s like magic... New regulations require perfectly good engines to be overhauled.
 
Witmo said:
WWII engines that were pickled in new condition and when they are popped out of their can, they get a complete overhaul so there must be some period of time where even a properly preserved engine has outlived its service life sitting unused and must be overhauled before use.
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In my experience (670, 1340, 1820), whether they were overhauled was usually dependent on condition and TCDS conformity/eligibility. In addition, with the 670s and some Wrights you had to verify no non-aviation parts were used in the engine as those models also powered WII tanks and tracked vehicles. When the dusting business really took off in late 40s, early 50s there were a lot of enterprising individuals who mixed engine parts.

But just like any product or article installed on an aircraft, it falls to the installer to determine whether it is acceptable so if they think an OH is needed so be it. For reference, I have installed several 1940s vintage 670s straight from the box to the aircraft with no major issues. So it all depends....
Witmo said:
Is there a regulation requiring overhaul before use?
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Not that I'm aware of. But there is a requirement to maintain a TSO time record on items that are required to be overhauled. So if no TSO record existed you would have to OH it to meet that rule. However, this requirement rarely is seen in GA small recip aircraft

There is existing OEM guidance on how to prep a stored engine for service but none are mandatory unless it's to be used for Part 135 or something and the operator adopted the OEM mx program. It's my understanding in this thread's case the engine wasn't preserved at all due to the overhaul not completed.
 
Tom-D said:
time continuing for a used engine still can be rebuild.
Many overhaulers Zero time since overhaul = 0 and call it rebuilt
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and there wording is wrong legaly, they have overhauled an engine, not rebuilt it. as i pointed out show we were in part 43,65, or 91 its says an A&P can rebuild anything. I pointed out that part 1.1 defines maintenance, part 43.3 and 65.87 define what an A&P can do, do you see the word REBUILD in there, no. do you see the word REBUILD in FAR 1.1 under maintenance, which is what 65.87 allows an a&p to perform? NO, the FAA reserves the word REBUILD for manufactures. you can overhaul an engine to rebuild standards anytime you want, you however, cannot call it a REBUILD. you can only call it a overhaul.

as to your original question, if you can prove the engine meets the TCDS then it is your call as and A&P IA as to if it is airworthy. if you do not have the paperwork, or have any question that it was overhauled in accordance with the overhaul manual than you need to tear it down and verify that it meets the requirements.
 
Tom-D said:
Show me.
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https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...7395e670c66&mc=true&node=se14.1.1_11&rgn=div8

§1.1 General definitions.
As used in Subchapters A through K of this chapter, unless the context requires otherwise:

Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.


still don't see the work REBUILD in there and still dont see it in FAR65.87

§65.87 Powerplant rating; additional privileges.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated mechanic with a powerplant rating may approve and return to service a powerplant or propeller or any related part or appliance, after he has performed, supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration (excluding major repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may perform the 100-hour inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on a powerplant or propeller, or any part thereof, and approve and return it to service.

(b) A certificated mechanic with a powerplant rating can approve and return to service a powerplant or propeller, or any related part or appliance, of an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category after performing and inspecting a major repair or major alteration for products that are not produced under an FAA approval, provided the work was performed in accordance with instructions developed by the manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA.

[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-10, 32 FR 5770, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65-45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004

you may be a good A&P, but you will never pass the bar exam and that is what the FAR's are all about, the letter of the law.
 
unsafervguy said:
you may be a good A&P, but you will never pass the bar exam and that is what the FAR's are all about, the letter of the law.
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The FAA has a bunch of lawyers that are pretty good at picking the FARs apart, and they see fit to include 43.2 to include the word "REBUILT"
 
[QUOTE="unsafervguy, post: 2928012, member: 9913"

Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance..[/QUOTE]

You can bet any engine that was overhauled to comply with Rebuilt was repaired as necessary
 
Subject: Eligibility, Quality, and Identification of Aeronautical Replacement Parts Date: 9/14/18 AC No: 20-62E Initiated by: AFS-300 Change: 1

...
k. Rebuilt Engines. Only engines that are rebuilt by a manufacturer holding an FAA production approval, an agency approved by the PAH, or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated agency can be considered as zero timed. (Refer to § 91.421.)

From 91.421...

(c) For the purposes of this section, a rebuilt engine is a used engine that has been completely disassembled, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, tested, and approved in the same manner and to the same tolerances and limits as a new engine with either new or used parts. However, all parts used in it must conform to the production drawing tolerances and limits for new parts or be of approved oversized or undersized dimensions for a new engine.

Who would have production drawings??? ;)

PS An overhaul manual with a table of limits is not a production document.
 
Tom-D said:
The FAA has a bunch of lawyers that are pretty good at picking the FARs apart, and they see fit to include 43.2 to include the word "REBUILT"
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what is the title of 43.2?
§43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.

it defines what records must be done. guess what, the manufacture, which i have pointed out numerous times is the only one under the FARS that can use use the word REBUILT, has to generate records also. that why the word REBUILT is in 43.2. 43.2 applies to the manufacture also
I will go over it one more time read each part of the fars.

1.1 defies what maintenance is. it does not include the word rebuild, or rebuilt.
43.3 defines who can do what under the fars 43.3 b says an A&P can perform maintenance which includes overhauls because an overhaul is defined as maintenance under 1.1
43.3 j defines what a manufacture can do and it includes REBUILD
43.2 states that all of the above must document what they do.
 
Why doesn't the FAA abide with your theory ?
43.2 says it in plane English, and not in lawyer speak.
 
Bell206 said:
So enlighten us mere mortals. What does 43.2 specifically say to you in plain English? Inquiring minds want to know.:)
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For the reason you can't tell us how you'd preserve an engine that isn't finished.
 
Tom-D said:
For the reason you can't tell us how you'd preserve an engine that isn't finished.
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Ha. Already answered that question in Post #4. So now it's your turn to answer a question: What does 43.2 specifically say to you in plain English in regards to overhauled and rebuilt engines?
 
Bell206 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you asking how to preserve a rebuilt engine that is 90% complete except for the required testing? Considering all the existing Lycoming/Continental preservation guidance in the OH manual and associated SBs requires an engine run of some sort, your only option would be to call the OEM for guidance or make your best guess.
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Post # 4

no answer there
 
Tom-D said:
no answer there
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Having an off week are you..:rolleyes:

Post #1 Question...
Tom-D said:
An engine that was rebuilt but never run, how long can it set?
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Post #4 Answer...
Bell206 said:
...make your best guess.
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That answer is based on the fact you choose not to follow the manufactures recommendations to run it and preserve it.

With that settled, again, what is your answer to the 43.2 question in Post 93 and 95?
 
Tom-D said:
An engine that was rebuilt but never run, how long can it set?
It was built with all reworked or new parts IAW the overhaul manual and lubricated normally during assembly.
Any one have guidance ?
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In what environment? What engine? In Arizona probably many years. In Antarctica probably a century. Coastal South maybe a few months.Why not pull a cylinder and look at the camshaft, cylinder bore and lifters for corrosion. Pulling a mag will let you see gear condx.
 
Bell206 said:
That answer is based on the fact you choose not to follow the manufactures recommendations to run it and preserve it.
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With an engine not complete. it can't be run.
You didn't read the manual did you.
Show me how to follow the instruction.
 
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Snowmass said:
In what environment? What engine? In Arizona probably many years. In Antarctica probably a century. Coastal South maybe a few months.Why not pull a cylinder and look at the camshaft, cylinder bore and lifters for corrosion. Pulling a mag will let you see gear condx.
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Setting on a vertical stand, in a work shop in the great north west.
 
Tom-D said:
Setting on a vertical stand, in a work shop in the great north west.
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So finish it up and run it, if you need to.
Follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer, such as these from Lycoming:
ENGINE PRESERVATION FOR ACTIVE AND STORED AIRCRAFT: https://www.lycoming.com/content/service-letter-no-l180b
Replace the spark plugs with dehydrating plugs. Put it in a plastic bag, with dried desiccants in appropriate containers, and seal the bag. The cited reference also mentions desiccant packages (with part numbers) to be placed in placed in the inlet and exhaust ports. These actions limit the amount of oxygen (as free oxygen and as water) which can oxidize anything. Put it in well-made crate with some more desiccant, and seal the crate well.
 
R
Tom-D said:
Setting on a vertical stand, in a work shop in the great north west.
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Rainfall varies from hundreds of inches to desert amount in the interior. But pulling a cylinder and looking should take lest time that writing posts especially if the engine is on a stand.
 
Snowmass said:
R
Rainfall varies from hundreds of inches to desert amount in the interior. But pulling a cylinder and looking should take lest time that writing posts especially if the engine is on a stand.
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I have run a scope in it and it looks clean, like a new cylinder.
 
Cheap Saturday nite entertainment...

Tom-D said:
With an engine not complete. it can't be run.
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Well, that is different than what you said in your original post…
Tom-D said:
An engine that was rebuilt but never run, how long can it set?
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Tom-D said:
It was built with all reworked or new parts IAW the overhaul manual
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In plain, simple English context “was rebuilt” and “was built” is past tense and implies the engine assembly was complete. In using the conjunction “but” after that 1st phrase it implies an exception to the former context that the only item remaining was to run it. Right? So if your Post 1 is inaccurate, what is the current condition of the engine?

Tom-D said:
You didn't read the manual did you.
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No, I didn’t because you didn’t post what engine model it is. But in the OH manuals I have read the physical overhaul work is completed prior to the testing portion of the engine, i.e., running of the engine which you implied in your 1st post was the only thing lacking on your engine.

Tom-D said:
Show me how to follow the instruction.
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Simple. If your original post is correct in that the engine was “rebuilt/built” but not run, then remove the engine from its “vertical stand” and put it in a test stand or aircraft and run it per the applicable OH manual. When complete, preserve it as recommended.

For someone who asks a lot of questions it sure is ironic you never answer any question proposed to you. Or is this just a game you like play because you think you’re in charge or something??

So in closing, what is your answer to the 43.2 question submitted to you in Post 93 and 95?;)
 
Back to the original question:

location, location, location. It depends on where the thing has been sitting. Keep it in your living room and it'll probably be fine for a decade.
 
Tom - Call your local FSDO, ask your question, and post the summary of the call here.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Tom - Call your local FSDO, ask your question, and post the summary of the call here.
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The FSDO will only echo what has been stated here by many, consult with the manufacturer.

Engine manufacturers have tech reps that will happily answer questions and provide guidance on their products.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The FSDO will only echo what has been stated here by many, consult with the manufacturer.

Engine manufacturers have tech reps that will happily answer questions and provide guidance on their products.
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The prudent advice I've been able to find is found in the 0-200-A preservation given in the Continental M/M, it isn't complete because I can't run it.
But it is better than nothing, seal it with a plastic bag and add dissident and check it once a month.
hopefully I can complete and install the engine soon.
 
Tom-D said:
I have run a scope in it and it looks clean, like a new cylinder.
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This does not surprise me at all but to be really sure you might pull a cylinder and look at the cam lobes and lifters. One test (or verification) is worth 1000 opinions (motto of the Hughes Aircraft engineering lab where I once worked).
 
but it still wont be legal when he writes rebuilt in the log book.............................
 
Tom-D said:
The prudent advice I've been able to find is found in the 0-200-A preservation given in the Continental M/M, it isn't complete because I can't run it.
But it is better than nothing, seal it with a plastic bag and add dissident and check it once a month.
hopefully I can complete and install the engine soon.
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I think sealing it with a dissident will add moisture, and it will stink after you check it in a month :)

Other than Tom being bitten by auto-correct, that sounds like the advice below :)
Cap'n Jack said:
So finish it up and run it, if you need to.
Follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer, such as these from Lycoming:
ENGINE PRESERVATION FOR ACTIVE AND STORED AIRCRAFT: https://www.lycoming.com/content/service-letter-no-l180b
Replace the spark plugs with dehydrating plugs. Put it in a plastic bag, with dried desiccants in appropriate containers, and seal the bag. The cited reference also mentions desiccant packages (with part numbers) to be placed in placed in the inlet and exhaust ports. These actions limit the amount of oxygen (as free oxygen and as water) which can oxidize anything. Put it in well-made crate with some more desiccant, and seal the crate well.
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Snowmass said:
This does not surprise me at all but to be really sure you might pull a cylinder and look at the cam lobes and lifters. One test (or verification) is worth 1000 opinions (motto of the Hughes Aircraft engineering lab where I once worked).
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I doubt my customer would pay to do that.
With what I can see, neither would I.
 
Tom-D said:
I doubt my customer would pay to do that.
With what I can see, neither would I.
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All the angst in this thread over this, but you won’t bother to pull a cylinder to verify. Makes sense. :confused:
 
Salty said:
All the angst in this thread over this, but you won’t bother to pull a cylinder to verify. Makes sense. :confused:
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Makes perfect sense to me. Would you do unauthorized work on someone else's engine, even on your own dime? That would bump you way up on the liability curve should something go wrong...
 
I have been over this 5 times. Show me where in 65.87 where it give you the ability to rebuild anything?
 
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