Premier 1 driver reported to FAA by "pilot"

[Salty]

Its called "anticipated separation" and is completely legal. If we didn't use anticipated separation everything would slow down and I'm sure pilots don't want to be slowed down...do they?

Note: I know the gist of your question and was not offended. I just felt the need to throw my couple of pennies in the discussion.

So if you as a controller couldn’t see a part of the runway asked me to report when I clear, you’d be cool with me reporting while I’m not across the lines yet? I realize that’s not what happened here, I’m just curious?

ok, I missed the post you were responding to, so I realize my question is completely non-sequitur, but I’m still curious.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I agree if I had that guys money I wouldn't waste my time with Youtube videos. Not worth the trouble.

Might be a hobby of his though. His stuff is very well edited. He doesn't appear to be phoning in his work.
I think a lot of people get into it because they are creative but they lack painting skills or don't have time to join a band and want an outlet for their creative side.
There is a lot of satisfaction in putting together a story. Prior to being a parent with a career, I wrote and recorded lot of music. I get that same sort of satisfaction from making short videos now. I guess I shouldn't speak for him but perhaps this is his version of Golfing, Fishing, Hunting, or other way to mentally check out.

I hope he keeps it up but given what he has at stake, I could see him dialing it back which would suck.

 

[DFH65]

@SixPapaCharlie I agree but he has a lot to lose since he uses it for business. Although I am sure he can afford some good lawyers too.

Oh and...Snitches get stitches.

 

[Salty]

Salty
Since you are clearly endorsing this kids behavior, please tell us how you are going to self report every infraction you execute from here going forward. Because anything other than that would make your comments hypocritical and completely worthless
Better yet why don’t you post that data here on the board so all of us can view and make the determination on what we feel warrants being a reportable offense to the FAA.
If this is something you are unwilling to do then your comments are without merit and therefore just a waste of time
“LOL”

I didn’t read past the first comma. Everything before it is false. Period.

If you think this is an endorsement, then I don’t think you know what that word means.

he was a snot nose punk that I have no respect for

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

@SixPapaCharlie
Oh and...Snitches get stitches.

They sure do.
I bet that kid is in a shock right now.
I imagine he had no idea a single phone call completely alter his future plans.
I think he is a punk*** and I feel sorry for him at the same time.

 

[GRG55]

Seems a little naive in this day and age to post video(s) on anti-social media and not recognize there are people out there scrutinizing every second looking for something to complain or be offended about.

The echo-chamber main-stream media have taught the public that overdramatizing the trivial is an effective attention gathering technique.

As our own @SixPapaCharlie discovered, even something satirically humorous can land one in the dumpster.

Sign of the times...

 

[PaulS]

Its called "anticipated separation" and is completely legal. If we didn't use anticipated separation everything would slow down and I'm sure pilots don't want to be slowed down...do they?

Note: I know the gist of your question and was not offended. I just felt the need to throw my couple of pennies in the discussion.

According to FAA JO 7110.65 (3-9-5) "takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll." ATC is allowed to use "anticipated separation" on controlled fields because they also have the authority to abort a clearance should something happen where the separation could not be maintained...

I am not a controller, although I have had nightmares about being forced to be a controller, but it is Ok to have more than one airplane on the runway. The controllers have specified distances between different size planes.

I don't know where I got the info as a student, probably from instructors with good intentions, but as a student I understood that only one airplane was allowed on the runway at any time. I now know that is incorrect.

In Alaska it was not uncommon to have 3 or 4 or possibly more aircraft back taxi on the runway, then turn around and take off. Not all at once, usually I started the TO roll as the wheels of the plane in front of me would lift off the runway.

Thanks guys, I figured it was legal, I wonder why doing the same thing at an uncontrolled field would not be.

A few weeks ago, I got stuck behind a slower airplane that dawdled after he landed at a delta airport, the controller asked the slower airplane to continue down the runway past an intersection, then cleared me to land since I had at least 3000 feet of runway. I was fine with that, but wouldn't do it at an uncontrolled field.

 

[asicer]

I'm sure no pilot on this board has EVER called clear of the runway while exiting...

Not that I can recall, but I've had a few of:
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 123 iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssss cllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllear of the runway"

 

[JonH]

Seems a little naive in this day and age to post video(s) on anti-social media and not recognize there are people out there scrutinizing every second looking for something to complain or be offended about.

The echo-chamber main-stream media have taught the public that overdramatizing the trivial is an effective attention gathering technique.

As our own @SixPapaCharlie discovered, even something satirically humorous can land one in the dumpster.

Sign of the times...

Yep. My last video recorded flight was 1.7 on the Hobbs. I reduced that flight down to 4 minutes of video. Without fail someone in the comments mentioned I didn't use a checklist once the entire flight. What the heck is going through someones mind when they type something like that is well above my pay grade to diagnose.

 

[Salty]

Thanks guys, I figured it was legal, I wonder why doing the same thing at an uncontrolled field would not be.

A few weeks ago, I got stuck behind a slower airplane that dawdled after he landed at a delta airport, the controller asked the slower airplane to continue down the runway past an intersection, then cleared me to land since I had at least 3000 feet of runway. I was fine with that, but wouldn't do it at an uncontrolled field.

Probably legal, but IMO foolish. Why abdicate your safety to the pilot in front and behind you when you don’t need to?

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Yep. My last video recorded flight was 1.7 on the Hobbs. I reduced that flight down to 4 minutes of video. Without fail someone in the comments mentioned I didn't use a checklist once the entire flight. What the heck is going through someones mind when they type something like that is well above my pay grade to diagnose.

One of my favorite quotes was from @eman1200.

"Just when I was thinking of starting a YouTube channel called “eyes outside” where in every video all I do is look for traffic. Looking for traffic, looking for traffic, looking for traffic. I would regularly interrupt traffic spotting with checklist usage. I might twist things up a bit now and then by pulling out the FAR’s to reference some obscure regulation. After landing I’d call my CFI to run the entire flight by him to see how I did. I’d end the video, after closing my flight plan, with me making the appropriate entries in my logbook (both paper and digital of course)."

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/youtube.111348/#post-2531877

 

[Salty]

Not that I can recall, but I've had a few of:
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 123 iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssss cllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllear of the runway"

Hey, this thread should have been nothing but praising P1 for not saying “clear of the active”.

 

[47PILOT]

I didn’t read past the first comma. Everything before it is false. Period.

If you think this is an endorsement, then I don’t think you know what that word means.

Your ego wouldn’t allow you to stop at the first comma, so yes, you did read the comment in it’s entirety
Unfortunately your comments in favor of the kids actions represent your true feelings

 

[DFH65]

Yep. My last video recorded flight was 1.7 on the Hobbs. I reduced that flight down to 4 minutes of video. Without fail someone in the comments mentioned I didn't use a checklist once the entire flight. What the heck is going through someones mind when they type something like that is well above my pay grade to diagnose.

Checklists we don't need no stinking checklists. Is memorizing the checklist/flow in a 172 or Cherokee really that hard? What about a Champ or a Cub? Not saying don't use one it just makes sense but I have missed things using a checklist. Wait can I admit that or is someone going to turn me in?

 

[apr911]

Thanks guys, I figured it was legal, I wonder why doing the same thing at an uncontrolled field would not be.

For the same reason that you only need to be "clear of clouds" in Class B airspace. While you still have a duty to see and avoid, ATC has a greater awareness of the overall picture and is able to exercise positive control over all aircraft operating in its sphere of influence.

It should also be noted that its an allowance for "anticipated separation" that is to say that your example of a slow moving plane ahead of you was a non-issue because the controller was able to anticipate that the plane would keep moving and separation would be sufficient. If the plane stopped on the runway however, there would have come a point at which the controller would have had to issue you a go-around. The only time I am aware of that you can land behind an aircraft that is going to be on the runway for an extended period is if the runway has been evaluated and approved for LAHSO, the plane ahead of you is beyond the LAHSO point and you are willing/able to accept the LAHSO clearance.

 

[Salty]

Your ego wouldn’t allow you to stop at the first comma, so yes, you did read the comment in it’s entirety
Unfortunately your comments in favor of the kids actions represent your true feelings

Projection.
I didn’t make a single comment in favor of the kids actions.

 

[Jim K]

Will this meeting with the FAA go in P1D’s permanent personal file? That’s the part that really matters.

He's definitely on double secret probation now.

 

[Brad Smith]

I get a kick out of people that do firearm videos and have to over dramatize the fact that the magazine is out of the gun and the chamber is empty for the viewers. The YouTube safety nazi's will nail you to the wall if you don't do a thorough "look, the gun is empty!" routine.

 

[SC777]

 

[apr911]

Salty
Since you are clearly endorsing this kids behavior, please tell us how you are going to self report every infraction you execute from here going forward. Because anything other than that would make your comments hypocritical and completely worthless
Better yet why don’t you post that data here on the board so all of us can view and make the determination on what we feel warrants being a reportable offense to the FAA.
If this is something you are unwilling to do then your comments are without merit and therefore just a waste of time
“LOL”

Your ego wouldn’t allow you to stop at the first comma, so yes, you did read the comment in it’s entirety
Unfortunately your comments in favor of the kids actions represent your true feelings

I also dont make a single comment in favor of the kids actions. In fact, I've explicitly stated it was an excessive response and hypothesized on what my own response would be. My problem with your theory however, is that you tacitly acknowledge there is a point at which a violation does warrant reporting to the FAA and for the FAA to intervene and determine whether the complaint has merit or not. If the FAA is to be the arbiter of violations, than they are the arbiter of all infractions no matter how small. Under that guise, than the kids actions were not totally unacceptable, just ill-measured which is largely what the comments here have said... It was an excessive response for the situation, which is not to be confused with the wrong one and a need to self-report every infraction or file a NASA ASRS... I mean if P1D was slurring his speech and seemed drunk, I think we'd all agree that the video would warrant reporting but there is a whole host of "violations" between being drunk and calling clear before being clear that fall within a spectrum from the deepest of blacks, "WTF were they thinking," to the lightest of greys almost white, "eh, technically a violation but not one to fret over unless they cumulative add up to a big one" and somewhere in the middle you'll start to find the group evenly divided about whether its something that is or is not reportable... In which case, when in doubt, the FAA is, as already noted, the final arbiter.

Frankly the FAA's whole educate and comply regime should make this a non-issue from a pilots perspective, particularly in P1D's situation since he's not on an airline tract. Except in the worst case scenarios most of which I believe we can already agree need to be reported, the FAA is either going to agree with the pilot and inform them of the complaint while doing nothing or agree with the complainant and issue some form of remedial instruction to be complied with before moving on... Now from a tax payer perspective? Well the wastefulness of government resources that is the investigation into this is a different matter.

 

[DesertNomad]

Stuff like this is why I will never post a video of myself flying.

 

[PaulS]

Probably legal, but IMO foolish. Why abdicate your safety to the pilot in front and behind you when you don’t need to?

Missing your point Salty, in the situation I described for me, I put the plane down before the 500 foot marker and needed about 1000 feet to stop ( I didn't actually stop, but expedited to the intersection to get off the runway because of a gulfstream a few miles behind me, if the airplane in front of me had done the same instead slowing to a crawl he would have been off the runway by the time I landed, but I think it was a student, so that's the way it goes) . I landed 2,500 feet from the runway intersection, which was 3000 feet down the runway and point the controller and I used to determine the other plane was far enough away. He crossed that runway when I was about 100 feet up, plenty of time for me to go around if he hadn't. It was a non event, even if I had screwed the pooch on the landing I would have been at least 100 feet over and a quarter mile to the left or right of him on my go around. It really was a non event.

 

[jbDC9]

Because the AIM recommends it.

AIM Table 4-1-1 Summary of recommended radio communications for No Tower, FSS or UNICOM

10 miles out. Entering downwind, base, and final. Leaving the runway.

Being recommended by the AIM doesn't mean "clear of the runway" is not a worthless, airwaves clogging call unless there's a hill or hump blocking the view of the other end of the field. I can usually look out the window and see if the runway is clear or not, no radio call needed for that.

Stuff like this is why I will never post a video of myself flying.

Yep. I'm fortunate to fly a pretty cool variety of airplanes, but have just never felt the need to video and post any of it.

 

[RyanB]

As a result of bad parenting and government school indoctrination, punks like that want to punish you for not thinking like them and take offense to your "privileged" status as a normal adult.

We are breeding a generation of cowards.

Amen!

 

[Larry in TN]

On the video it looks as though less than four seconds passed between the "clear" radio call and the airplane actually being clear of the runway. That would have required some spectacular acceleration, from the departing aircraft, to even come close to catching him.

 

[Vance Breese]

Being recommended by the AIM doesn't mean "clear of the runway" is not a worthless, airwaves clogging call unless there's a hill or hump blocking the view of the other end of the field. I can usually look out the window and see if the runway is clear or not, no radio call needed for that.

It is my observation that there are many aircraft with restricted forward visibility on short final and it is nice for them to know when aircraft are leaving the runway and where.

All the radio calls listed in the AIM for non-towered airports appear to have value to me so I make them.

 

[Arnold]

It is my observation that there are many aircraft with restricted forward visibility on short final and it is nice for them to know when aircraft are leaving the runway and where.

I am curious, what aircraft do not permit the pilot to see as you describe?

 

[apr911]

On the video it looks as though less than four seconds passed between the "clear" radio call and the airplane actually being clear of the runway. That would have required some spectacular acceleration, from the departing aircraft, to even come close to catching him.

True but what-if P1D had a sudden stroke right there and was no longer able to clear the runway? Anticipated separation is permitted at controlled airports because the controller can issue an abort if separation cant be maintained... Who was going to tell that taking off airplane to abort? Even recognizing that the plane departing wouldn't need the full length of the runway.

I'd counter the argument that it was just 5 seconds with how exactly did announcing clear 5 seconds early really make a difference to the departing/waiting aircraft?
No P1D got caught by a student pilot being sloppy and rather than admit it was sloppiness on his part, he doubled down on it being "quality airmenship" because he was "situationally aware" enough to get that plane behind him rolling.

P1D broke the cardinal rule. He started communicating before he was finished aviating. He was also running through his after landing checklist while still on the runway and on the move.

I realize of course these and other faux pas are minor issues and easily downplayed as non-issues. We're all guilty of it at times but we generally recognize it to be sloppy and/or error prone. We all would generally recommend that you not do it, especially to a new student pilot. We should strive to do better and practice what we preach.

In my opinion, P1D chose to post his videos to youtube, he chose to be subject to this scrutiny. If his response to being caught doing something that isn't by the book is like it was to this kid, a condescending "I'm uber-pilot with 1000's of hours so I'm right and you and everything you've learned as a low time student pilot is wrong because I have situational awareness so I dont need to explain myself or what I was doing to the likes of you" which may not have been his intent but having read his initial response a dozen times in every POV I can come up with, that's how it consistently comes across, I mean he didn't even answer the kids question, than maybe he shouldn't be posting videos on youtube in the first place.

If his response to being called by the FAA to be told "hey we received a complaint, we reviewed it and you're all good, we just had to let you know we got the complaint" is to use his platform to attack and denigrate another pilot for their own faux pas of involving the FAA for something so minor and to name names so his followers can predictably go after the young man, than he definitely shouldn't be an online representative of the pilot community.

 

[apr911]

Probably legal, but IMO foolish. Why abdicate your safety to the pilot in front and behind you when you don’t need to?

@PaulS was instructed by ATC using the anticipated separation rules ATC is allowed to operate under since they have full visibility of the airport environment and the authority to revoke a clearance and make it a go-around. If this were the pilot ahead of him, I'd agree with you that it would be foolish but this is more like the example you gave earlier of how a controller would freak out if you announced you were clear before you were actually clear at an airport where they lost sight of you and its because they cant see you to tell others to go around that its such a big deal.

 

[Larry in TN]

True but what-if P1D had a sudden stroke right there and was no longer able to clear the runway?

The departing aircraft would have seen the jet stuck in the grass as he flew by.

 

[Vance Breese]

I am curious, what aircraft do not permit the pilot to see as you describe?

My personal experience is with flying a Boeing-Stearman Model 75 with very restricted forward visibility on approach that gets worse during the round out.

I have a friend who flies a North American P-6 Texan who has a challenge with forward visibility on short final.

I have a friend who flies a Pitts S2 with very restricted forward visibility.

I have a friend who flies a Yokovlev Yak-52 with very restricted forward visibility.

The Antov AN-2 appears to me to have very restricted forward visibility in any slow flight.

These are just the ones that come to mind that I have some personal experience with. I am certain there are many more.

The gyroplane I fly is hard for pilots to see because there are no wings and most pilots are looking for wings.

I make all the radio calls suggested in the AIM and report when and where I have left the runway.

 

[CharlieD3]

Realizing the jurisdiction is different, but in both both cases the exercise of a privilege, do we call the local gendarmes or the state troopers when someone fails to use turn signals? Makes an improper lane change? Fails to come to a complete stop before right turn on red?

How about if they flip us the bird after said infraction?

This is ridiculous.

Many have said a PPL is a license to learn.

I know, at a 100 hours I ain't a great pilot. I probably won't be perfect at 1000 hours.

Will some student catch me being lazy on the radio? Or maybe I won't hold heading or altitude on a cc fun flight? Do I need them to call FAAther to spank me into submission?

Inanity and impertinence runs rampant nowadays...

Sigh.

fly to the scene of the incident, or be recovered at the scene of the tragedy

 

[apr911]

Realizing the jurisdiction is different, but in both both cases the exercise of a privilege, do we call the local gendarmes or the state troopers when someone fails to use turn signals? Makes an improper lane change? Fails to come to a complete stop before right turn on red?

As a one off? No probably not but if a person does enough of these on the same drive? Probably.

If you confronted said driver about the safety of himself and others on the road and the driver said "oh no, I dont need turn signals, I'm situationally aware" what would be your response? Would you call the DMV that issued his driver's license or at least (assuming you're a new driver) gone to the person who taught you to drive and asked what's with that?

P1D's entire response was pretty much exactly that. Turn signals or waiting to clear before calling clear are for the little people, not the situationally aware uber pilot that he is. His sole admission to this being sloppy and a technical violation was equivocated by the remaining 13 minutes and 20 seconds of this 13 minute and 30 second video about how he was right and therefore the aggrieved party.

That doesn't let the kid completely off the hook, he should have gone to his CFI or to other pilots first but ultimately that's a judgement call and you dont know what you dont know so how do you make a judgement call of how best to proceed when you dont know the other options?

 

[bflynn]

Probably legal, but IMO foolish. Why abdicate your safety to the pilot in front and behind you when you don’t need to?

Do you think anyone abdicated their safety in that situation? I can land, full stop, and take off again in 3000'. Why would it be any kind of safety issues to land with someone 3000' down the runway?

One of my favorite quotes was from @eman1200.

"Just when I was thinking of starting a YouTube channel called “eyes outside” where in every video all I do is look for traffic. Looking for traffic, looking for traffic, looking for traffic. I would regularly interrupt traffic spotting with checklist usage. I might twist things up a bit now and then by pulling out the FAR’s to reference some obscure regulation. After landing I’d call my CFI to run the entire flight by him to see how I did. I’d end the video, after closing my flight plan, with me making the appropriate entries in my logbook (both paper and digital of course)."

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/youtube.111348/#post-2531877

What, is he going to call you to discuss the flight when he lands?

Ridiculous topic and I hope the kid learned a lesson.

 

[ktup-flyer]

True but what-if P1D had a sudden stroke right there and was no longer able to clear the runway? Anticipated separation is permitted at controlled airports because the controller can issue an abort if separation cant be maintained... Who was going to tell that taking off airplane to abort? Even recognizing that the plane departing wouldn't need the full length of the runway.

I'd counter the argument that it was just 5 seconds with how exactly did announcing clear 5 seconds early really make a difference to the departing/waiting aircraft?
No P1D got caught by a student pilot being sloppy and rather than admit it was sloppiness on his part, he doubled down on it being "quality airmenship" because he was "situationally aware" enough to get that plane behind him rolling.

P1D broke the cardinal rule. He started communicating before he was finished aviating. He was also running through his after landing checklist while still on the runway and on the move.

I realize of course these and other faux pas are minor issues and easily downplayed as non-issues. We're all guilty of it at times but we generally recognize it to be sloppy and/or error prone. We all would generally recommend that you not do it, especially to a new student pilot. We should strive to do better and practice what we preach.

In my opinion, P1D chose to post his videos to youtube, he chose to be subject to this scrutiny. If his response to being caught doing something that isn't by the book is like it was to this kid, a condescending "I'm uber-pilot with 1000's of hours so I'm right and you and everything you've learned as a low time student pilot is wrong because I have situational awareness so I dont need to explain myself or what I was doing to the likes of you" which may not have been his intent but having read his initial response a dozen times in every POV I can come up with, that's how it consistently comes across, I mean he didn't even answer the kids question, than maybe he shouldn't be posting videos on youtube in the first place.

If his response to being called by the FAA to be told "hey we received a complaint, we reviewed it and you're all good, we just had to let you know we got the complaint" is to use his platform to attack and denigrate another pilot for their own faux pas of involving the FAA for something so minor and to name names so his followers can predictably go after the young man, than he definitely shouldn't be an online representative of the pilot community.

Remind me to never go to a party with you...

Greg could've said absolutely nothing on the radio and would've been perfectly legal.

 

[Salty]

Do you think anyone abdicated their safety in that situation? I can land, full stop, and take off again in 3000'. Why would it be any kind of safety issues to land with someone 3000' down the runway?

Honestly, I’ve somehow gotten out of sync with the conversation. I thought I was talking about pulling onto a runway that was already occupied while another plane was on final, or nearly on final, at an uncontrolled airport. I’d wait until the other plane cleared before entering the runway.

 

[Zeldman]

After reading all this can you imagine what might have happened to me if I had recorded some of the things I did in Alaska and put it on YouTube.??

 

[TommyG]

In all fairness about the kid. His page before he blocked had posts calling out conservative teachers that made comments going against today’s standards. So karma!

 

[Challenged]

Is it okay to be disappointed in everyone? That's probably par for the course so far in 2020.

 

[Bob Noel]

Honestly, I’ve somehow gotten out of sync with the conversation. I thought I was talking about pulling onto a runway that was already occupied while another plane was on final, or nearly on final, at an uncontrolled airport. I’d wait until the other plane cleared before entering the runway.

if you are referring to the video in the original post, one aircraft called 45 entry to downwind, then that aircraft called downwind just before the jet landed. Was there another aircraft?