Precision Power Off Landing

[Shepherd]

I believe any stock factory airplane is legal. The big money schools have Cessna 150's that look nicer than our 152's. Those ones have the manual flaps that go to 40 degrees.

Since you can't use a slip to land, and none of the planes I listed have flaps, you are at an instant disadvantage in any of them.

 

[James331]

Huh, so you can't use a plane with over 4 seats or 250HP or with any aftermarket STOL stuff, that takes out quite a few planes.

Plus you can't do a slip, OR a go around, even Valdez allows go arounds, seems they are instilling some chit habits, especially as a "college" competition.

https://nifa.aero/wp-content/uploads/NIFA-MASTER-REDBOOK-2016.pdf

 

[Landshark]

^^^You're right, I forgot about that rule since the planes that we actually use and have access to are so far removed from the maximum the rules allow. I fly a 2 seater with 110hp lol. Some schools have used planes with factory STOL stuff I remember overhearing.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Glider pilots land dead-stick every time. I don't see it as an unsafe maneuver.

Glider pilots have glide path control that is substantially better than what most airplanes have when you remove the ability to adjust power.

Not that glider pilots should be needing all of that capability any more than a power pilot should under normal circumstances.

 

[brcase]

Glider pilots have glide path control that is substantially better than what most airplanes have when you remove the ability to adjust power.

Not that glider pilots should be needing all of that capability any more than a power pilot should under normal circumstances.

The only glide path control my HP16T glider has is that the flaps go down to about 70 degrees as opposed to the 40 degrees a C-150 has. Actually this particular glider has a bit of a reputation for being able to approach steep and land in a short distance. It does not have Spoilers or Airbrakes.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[coloradobluesky]

The glider I flew had an airbrake. You pulled this lever back on the side. It was like a J3 throttle handle. So the technique is best glide until you have the field made. Then pull the handle back and dive. Flare and land normally. It was fun. When it slowed to a stop on landing, the glider tipped over on one of its outriggers or sponsons whateveryoucall them.

You have to push on the rudder to take the slack out if you get slack being towed, know how to find lift, and stay within gliding distance of the home base and be able to "box the wake". Sometimes you land off field. Its more common with gliders. Better have someone that can come and get you and the glider.

You have to go with an instructor until you can solo of course.

 

[Kritchlow]

I've also found something that has helped me with power off spot landings. Save the flaps for the last minnit. If you're a bit low on final,
a quick deployment of full flaps will balloon you up just enough, then allow you to come in steeper to hit the mark.
also, if a bit high, a slipping turn from base to final, will lose a bit of altitude, but IMHO it's still not a forward slip, just an awkward turn.

Yeah... the competition will not allow for either of those maneuvers.

 

[Kritchlow]

Back in the day, I used to aim about 50-100 feet short of the threshold, flare when I reached that point, and float onto the runway surface. It's all about energy management.

Bob Gardner

I know I sound like a broken record, but the judges will also DQ you for this.

 

[RoscoeT]

I know I sound like a broken record, but the judges will also DQ you for this.

For rounding out before the touchdown spot instead of doing a carrier landing?

 

[Kritchlow]

For rounding out before the touchdown spot instead of doing a carrier landing?

For ducking below the slope and excessive float.

 

[whereisrandall]

@Landshark - ultimately, the goal is being a better pilot. Sounds like you're doing that. And, I wouldn't change your approach now - stick with what you know, and good luck. Report back here after, mmkay?

 

[Landshark]

Well, I watched the landings again a little closer this time and all the pilots that are putting it really close or on the line do what may be considered a slow-motion carrier landing. But it is not hard, fast, and violent like a real carrier landing, it is rather very gentle and slow. The tires barely chirp and there is not a chance of a bounce whatsoever. It is actually a very beautiful landing.

I went out there and tried it. I took precautions against everything that I thought might get me into trouble, namely getting very slow or stalling at a greater height above the runway than usual. So I increased my approach speed to 60 and started the gentle rotation at my normal height of runway expansion. I landed long but it was very gentle and controlled and measured. I could actually control the descent rate and pick my spot better.

I gradually increased my gentle rotation height to start at about 15 feet above the runway and was more often landing a little long. The practice was only 4 landings but in those 4 landings, I am about as good with this method as I was with floating and setting it down, and I have practiced that for many hours this past week. I haven't even dialed it in yet at all. Even better was that I had a totally botched approach where I was too high and ended up very fast at 70 and was forced to land it almost flat. Landing flat is a big penalty. I don't know if they would have hit me with extra points but even with a nasty approach I landed only about 70 feet long. My old method would have had me landing maybe 300 feet long or unscorable.

The ability to adjust and pick your landing spot is so much better, there is much more fidelity, less of a pick your spot and pray it is right when it comes down. The landings were the smoothest I have done all weekend and not a hint of PIO. I was getting the very same benefits that the best schools were getting from this method. They do it a lot better than me but I wish I had more practice. Alas, this was for power-ons, where you have more control. I hope this epiphany does not evaporate when I do the final short practice tomorrow with power-offs. I plan to do everything the same as before except come in at 55. I hope this adjustment will correct the slightly long issue.

My teammates also told me to stick to what I know this late in the game. I just am never satisfied with good enough and you should have saw my s**t-eating grin when I got out of the plane today.

 

[Landshark]

For rounding out before the touchdown spot instead of doing a carrier landing?

You can round out like normal, you just cant float for more than 5 seconds. This keeps people from approaching at a very high speed and just floating on down until they reach the target line. I was actually in jeopardy of this rule and changed my approach speed from 65 to 55. Less energy, less float.

 

[Stearman]

Go get checked out in a taildragger and learn to stick it on.

Kidding! Good luck.

 

[Landshark]

So we did the landing events this past Thursday. The practice I wrote about above went perfect. The power off practice the next day was absolutely horrible. We were in charge of our own spacing. 4 of us in each heat sharing a pattern. I kept catching up to the guy in front of me and had to extend downwind on a power off landing! Such a waste of a practice and very frustrating. Figured out what I needed to do by extending upwind and other techniques but that was it. The next time I flew, it would be in the heat of competition and I was far from perfecting this new way of landing. Decided that I would like to lead the heat so that I wouldn't have to worry about anybody in front of me, I just had to be the one on the radio.

Next day we start up bright and early at 9am. The wind sock was limp and the sky was clear. It was perfect conditions for landings. We started up with power-offs. There was only time for 2 landings each so there would be no room for error. I lead the flight of 4 out. Cross the right runway and line up and wait on the left. Take off smooth and took my time with everything, not making any errors. Checking back a couple times and my upwind tracking was perfect. Crosswind then downwind and I don't hear anything from tower for us. Right as I start to approach abeam the target line, I make a frantic radio call, "Tower, is heat 1 cleared for 31 left?" I get the clearance and immediately pull power idle, carb heat, flaps and descend at 70. I Didn't get to reset my HI perfect and thinking about whether I pulled power too late and got a penalty. Couldn't really see the target line because today they have all these extra hash marks to measure where you land. I come in high, go flaps 30 and then end up kind of low and have to squeeze a couple extra feet out of the landing. It drops down short, maybe outside of the box.

Clean up the airplane and apply full power nice and easy, no mistakes. There is no time for cursing myself. All that matters is my next run and try to do the best I can. Crosswind, downwind and once again silence. We were always getting an early clearance the other days when I wasn't leading. I call tower early, they give me the option. I tried my best to reset the HI so its kinda perfect. Pull power, the whole spiel, and I didn't want to be short. Wait too long to go full flaps and end up high. Increase my airspeed to drop altitude and I am hauling ass at 65 or 70. The plane floats forever, I don't really have a good look at the target line again. It is approaching fast and in a feeble attempt to put it down, I relax a lot of pressure on the yoke. The plane lands fast and flat a little past the target line, bounces a good hundred feet or more and bounces a second time. It finally lands beyond the box, more than 200 feet from the target line. Not my best work. The only thing damaged is my confidence. I pull back in and hang my head for a couple hours, very nervous that if I don't pull my thumb out, I am going to strike out again when we do power-ons.

Its noon time. They moved the power-ons foward an hour so I am scrambling and rushing at the last second when I thought I had all the time in the world. I would be the lead plane again. Time to correct all my past mistakes. Look for and identify the target line between the cones, amidst all the new hashmarks and keep an eye on it as I come in. Call for the clearance early so that I can reset my HI perfectly and have more time on downwind to set the plane up. There is an 8 knot headwind now, which can lead to mechanical turbulence or up and down drafts on short final. Taxi out, flight of 4 ready for takeoff. Upwind is good, crosswind then downwind and they give me the clearance early. Things are already looking up.

I leave extra power in on downwind so that I have some reserve. 1 base, then turn final. Get 30 flaps in early and increase my speed to get down. Everything is looking good, steadily homing in on the target line. Cut power fully and come in at 60. Started the early mini rotation and slowly bled speed as I touched down maybe 50 feet past the target, still a little fast. Got one in the bag. Lets do that again. Everything goes the same as before. I am trying to get it perfect so I end up a little short. Not giving up, I increase the backpressure and fight off the landing. The stall horn goes off and I sail past the line landing maybe 40 feet long of the target. I am satisfied with those 2. Once out of the plane, I am bouncing around more than the landings earlier in the day, pleased that I did what I hoped I could do and salvage the day.

I just came back from the awards banquet. They withhold all results until today so that you can just compete all week and enjoy a good meal before finding out who did what. I entered 5 events: Power-off landings, power-on short field landings, ground trainer (sims), preflight, and SCAN. I totally messed up the power-off landings and was able to place in the other 4, taking a 10th place in power-on landings. My school (SJSU) got 2nd place overall and we are going to Nationals in Ohio next semester! Mission accomplished!

 

[Hank S]

Congratulations!! Sounds like a fun weekend.

 

[SkyDog58]

A piece of masking tape on the wing strut so you're always the same distance on downwind...if you always start in the same place, the rest gets easier.

Wouldn't that only work if all pattern altitudes were the same AGL? PA seems to vary between 800' & 1000' AGL.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Wouldn't that only work if all pattern altitudes were the same AGL? PA seems to vary between 800' & 1000' AGL.

Puts you a little further out for the high ones, a little closer for the low ones...seems to me that's what you'd want.

I guess my initial post assumed a given pattern altitude for the contest airport rather than "any" airport, though.

 

[bluerooster]

Yeah... the competition will not allow for either of those maneuvers.

The power off rules only metion that flaps may be used, but not deployed below 100'agl. no mention of when to use them. I agree with the slipping turn. The short field rules state that flaps must be used by aircraft so equipped. But also has no mention of when, other than not to be deployed below 100'agl. And both require flaps (if used) to not be retracted untill after landing is completed.

 

[AKBill]

That really sounds like fun. I'll have to find a similar event in my area (more informal) and give it a go.

Is the target mark typically pretty near the numbers/threshold, or a little farther down?

The 1000ft line from the end of the runway was used in the competition I was in at Juneau years ago.

 

[Landshark]

Puts you a little further out for the high ones, a little closer for the low ones...seems to me that's what you'd want.

I guess my initial post assumed a given pattern altitude for the contest airport rather than "any" airport, though.

We were able to pick our own TPA so that we could use what we had practiced and were comfortable with. That said, you cannot do something way out there like 5-600 agl. I think a reasonable range was 800-1100 agl. I used 1000 on the dot.

 

[Landshark]

The power off rules only metion that flaps may be used, but not deployed below 100'agl. no mention of when to use them. I agree with the slipping turn. The short field rules state that flaps must be used by aircraft so equipped. But also has no mention of when, other than not to be deployed below 100'agl. And both require flaps (if used) to not be retracted untill after landing is completed.

The rules as interpreted and applied to my airplane (C152):
Short fields you can use the flaps at any time. They cannot move below 100' agl and you have to land with full flaps.
Power-offs you can use the flaps at any time. They cannot move below 100' agl and you can land with any or no amount of flaps at all.

 

[Kritchlow]

The power off rules only metion that flaps may be used, but not deployed below 100'agl. no mention of when to use them. I agree with the slipping turn. The short field rules state that flaps must be used by aircraft so equipped. But also has no mention of when, other than not to be deployed below 100'agl. And both require flaps (if used) to not be retracted untill after landing is completed.

I don't see any disagreement, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Kritchlow]

So we did the landing events this past Thursday. The practice I wrote about above went perfect. The power off practice the next day was absolutely horrible. We were in charge of our own spacing. 4 of us in each heat sharing a pattern. I kept catching up to the guy in front of me and had to extend downwind on a power off landing! Such a waste of a practice and very frustrating. Figured out what I needed to do by extending upwind and other techniques but that was it. The next time I flew, it would be in the heat of competition and I was far from perfecting this new way of landing. Decided that I would like to lead the heat so that I wouldn't have to worry about anybody in front of me, I just had to be the one on the radio.

Next day we start up bright and early at 9am. The wind sock was limp and the sky was clear. It was perfect conditions for landings. We started up with power-offs. There was only time for 2 landings each so there would be no room for error. I lead the flight of 4 out. Cross the right runway and line up and wait on the left. Take off smooth and took my time with everything, not making any errors. Checking back a couple times and my upwind tracking was perfect. Crosswind then downwind and I don't hear anything from tower for us. Right as I start to approach abeam the target line, I make a frantic radio call, "Tower, is heat 1 cleared for 31 left?" I get the clearance and immediately pull power idle, carb heat, flaps and descend at 70. I Didn't get to reset my HI perfect and thinking about whether I pulled power too late and got a penalty. Couldn't really see the target line because today they have all these extra hash marks to measure where you land. I come in high, go flaps 30 and then end up kind of low and have to squeeze a couple extra feet out of the landing. It drops down short, maybe outside of the box.

Clean up the airplane and apply full power nice and easy, no mistakes. There is no time for cursing myself. All that matters is my next run and try to do the best I can. Crosswind, downwind and once again silence. We were always getting an early clearance the other days when I wasn't leading. I call tower early, they give me the option. I tried my best to reset the HI so its kinda perfect. Pull power, the whole spiel, and I didn't want to be short. Wait too long to go full flaps and end up high. Increase my airspeed to drop altitude and I am hauling ass at 65 or 70. The plane floats forever, I don't really have a good look at the target line again. It is approaching fast and in a feeble attempt to put it down, I relax a lot of pressure on the yoke. The plane lands fast and flat a little past the target line, bounces a good hundred feet or more and bounces a second time. It finally lands beyond the box, more than 200 feet from the target line. Not my best work. The only thing damaged is my confidence. I pull back in and hang my head for a couple hours, very nervous that if I don't pull my thumb out, I am going to strike out again when we do power-ons.

Its noon time. They moved the power-ons foward an hour so I am scrambling and rushing at the last second when I thought I had all the time in the world. I would be the lead plane again. Time to correct all my past mistakes. Look for and identify the target line between the cones, amidst all the new hashmarks and keep an eye on it as I come in. Call for the clearance early so that I can reset my HI perfectly and have more time on downwind to set the plane up. There is an 8 knot headwind now, which can lead to mechanical turbulence or up and down drafts on short final. Taxi out, flight of 4 ready for takeoff. Upwind is good, crosswind then downwind and they give me the clearance early. Things are already looking up.

I leave extra power in on downwind so that I have some reserve. 1 base, then turn final. Get 30 flaps in early and increase my speed to get down. Everything is looking good, steadily homing in on the target line. Cut power fully and come in at 60. Started the early mini rotation and slowly bled speed as I touched down maybe 50 feet past the target, still a little fast. Got one in the bag. Lets do that again. Everything goes the same as before. I am trying to get it perfect so I end up a little short. Not giving up, I increase the backpressure and fight off the landing. The stall horn goes off and I sail past the line landing maybe 40 feet long of the target. I am satisfied with those 2. Once out of the plane, I am bouncing around more than the landings earlier in the day, pleased that I did what I hoped I could do and salvage the day.

I just came back from the awards banquet. They withhold all results until today so that you can just compete all week and enjoy a good meal before finding out who did what. I entered 5 events: Power-off landings, power-on short field landings, ground trainer (sims), preflight, and SCAN. I totally messed up the power-off landings and was able to place in the other 4, taking a 10th place in power-on landings. My school (SJSU) got 2nd place overall and we are going to Nationals in Ohio next semester! Mission accomplished!

Good work!! San Jose always put up a good team.

 

[Landshark]

Some stuff that I took away from this event.

Well, I got to experience some things I wouldn't have normally been able to if I didn't compete. I saw how the top schools conducted themselves, how they went about being the best. I used their smaller patterns (mine is admittedly large and wide, a crutch that I used to give me more time to setup the plane). I tried to emulate their landing style of slowly decreasing height and airspeed (still a work in progress, should be ready for nationals tho). I got used to the rule about not adding any power, only being able to reduce it. I was shown the importance of airspeed and glide ratio.

I spent at least 8 hours in the pattern just practicing and getting better at the most basic of skills, landing. That is something I wouldn't have done by my own accord, but in preparation for the event, I was all too eager to do. During those hours in the plane, I also became much better at turns around a point. I varied my airspeed from Vx to Vy depending on what I wanted for my pattern and altitude and saw how they affected my ground track considerably while I was turning. I also gained experience competing. Things like the extra hash marks near the target line won't surprise me as much next time.

I learned so much this last week and tried so many new things, some successful, others not so much. I have things to work on in practice and I am curious to see what kind of pilot emerges 6 months from now. Thanks for the words of wisdom, all the advice, and encouragement to do my best.

 

[SkyDog58]

Puts you a little further out for the high ones, a little closer for the low ones...seems to me that's what you'd want.

I guess my initial post assumed a given pattern altitude for the contest airport rather than "any" airport, though.

Makes sense.

 

[whereisrandall]

@Landshark , twenty years from now, with your spouse beside you and kids in the back, you may not remember this week - but when you suddenly lose power and set down safely on a 600' river bar, it'll all come back.

Job well done, congrats.

 

[RussR]

I Didn't get to reset my HI perfect

I tried my best to reset the HI so its kinda perfect.

Call for the clearance early so that I can reset my HI perfectly

I'm not clear on why you're doing all this setting of your heading indicator, and why it depends on when ATC clears you to land. Could you explain a bit?

And, congratulations!

 

[Landshark]

I'm not clear on why you're doing all this setting of your heading indicator, and why it depends on when ATC clears you to land. Could you explain a bit?

And, congratulations!

Well, it may just be a personal quirk of mine. We just recently got this new vertical compass card in my favorite plane. It has made resetting the heading indicator so much easier and faster than the bubble compass and I subsequently have found that I love having complete trust in my HI when doing the most square pattern possible. Making my downwind leg exactly parallel to the runway ensures that my ground track is more or less the same every run, if wind conditions are consistent.

So when I turn downwind, there is only so much time I have to level off at 1000 agl, pull power to 2100, trim so that I can fly hands off, get everything stabilized before resetting (or checking) my HI, and make any necessary radio calls way ahead of approaching abeam the target line which is the top of the first stripe. I am trying to stay ahead of the airplane so that I can singularly focus on what is most important to me and be ready to pull power and do nearly the same things at nearly the same time, hopefully see a similar sight picture on short final and make very familiar small adjustments, instead of large adjustments or wild-ass guesses. In short, I just want to be consistent. Maybe I should have led with that lol.

In normal flying, I am not resetting my HI every 7 minutes. This particular HI precesses a bit but it is not that bad.

 

[jordane93]

Nice job!

 

[Landshark]

@Landshark , twenty years from now, with your spouse beside you and kids in the back, you may not remember this week - but when you suddenly lose power and set down safely on a 600' river bar, it'll all come back.

Job well done, congrats.

Thank you, I do want to get it where I can consistently touchdown just after taxiway Bravo, and turn at Charlie without needing to really jam the brakes. Not sure if its possible but would like to try.

 

[arnoha]

Hey, it was at KRHV! Which used to be my home 'drome until last week. Didn't know it was happening...would have been fun to watch.