Pre purchase inspection engine issues

J

Jthamilton

Line Up and Wait
Joined
May 31, 2012
Messages
616
Location
Steamboat Springs, CO
Display Name
Display name:
Okie182
My mechanic just called after finding some form of metal deposit around the plug holes and similar appearing metal fouling of all the plugs. The sellers IA is saying it's lead deposits. We have no metal analysis yet since this was just found. I'm not that comfortable with just lead and neither are my sources I'm dealing with.

Compression was good in march but if the plugs were replaced in march at last annual they fouled pretty darn quick even if running rich especially when the aircraft hasn't been flown much. My IA did say a short time ago that the compression was good also. But has found an exhaust valve leak also.

So he is still finishing the inspection and will give everything to me shortly.

The aircraft is a 2002 turbo 182t with 1550 hours on it. The AD on the crankshaft AD has not been done and my intentions were to fly it for another year, get my IR in the meantime. The crankshaft AD is due next November and I intended on replacing the engine at that time.

My options so far without having a good idea of what Im dealing with here are.
1. Scrap the deal
2. renegotiate but not knowing entire picture I'm not sure where to start.
3. Get metal analysis but not sure how this will help.

My IA is retired AA mechanic and is very good along with the good friend who is also IA and one of the sharpest guys I know. They are both a little confused where this amount of deposits could come from.

attached are pics are from one of the plugs removed and the hole where it came from
 

Attachments

  • photo-7.jpg
    photo-7.jpg
    42.4 KB · Views: 96
  • photo-4.jpg
    photo-4.jpg
    24.5 KB · Views: 88
Any oil analysis numbers changing.

Anything in the oil filters that were inspected as they were changed?

Borescope maybe?
 
My IA wants to boroscope but was only in town today for inspection and doesn't have the scope with him. He really recommends that all the cylinders be pulled.

There is no mention of any particles on oil analysis. The poor owner was charged over 15k for an annual recently in March, for what we have no idea. To make the matter worse, my IA found an AD that hadn't been complied with which terminated dec 31st, 2009. The seller wasn't happy apparently when he learned the aircraft wasn't in compliance.

I'm going to call some shops locally and get firm numbers for rebuild versus FOH. Then consider renegotiating on our price. We are going to have the metal analyzed but I doubt thats going to change my mind.

I still new to this since it has been 8 years since I owned an aircraft but it seems like my options are few.
 
This is a pre-buy? You're really touching on things that'd make me walk. $15K in maintenance and it's not in the logbook? Run screaming away.
 
I have more pics coming this evening after my IA gets settled in the hotel and can email them. HE did apparently install a new Turbo this March which will account for some of the cost. Why he didn't have rebuild I don't know. HE is a physician (so am I) and the perception was they saw him coming, but who knows. I would hate to think that is the case!

I'm not dropping the deal just yet. If I must put engine in the aircraft I will, of course if the final price is right and I am doing pretty good where I am at right now.

The broker just called and the seller has boroscope scheduled thursday and the AD is being taken care of. This of course won't alleviate my concerns but will hopefully shed some light on the crap in the cylinders.

No other huge issues were identified and everything else worked as it should have.

It was recommended to do the oil analysis this week also while the deposits are figured out.
 
Nickel anti seize, some body got a little too much on the plug.

If I were your seller, I'd run your A&P off the airport. and tell you to take a hike too.
 
Jthamilton said:
Explain that a little more for me please?
Click to expand...
when you are the seller you have a different perspective.

Would you like some you do not know or trust tell you the engine needs to have all of its cylinders removed?

speciality when they are operating well?

smacks of buyer dirty tricks.
 
Jthamilton said:
attached are pics are from one of the plugs removed and the hole where it came from
Click to expand...

That looks like plain old lead fouling to me. The owner didn't know what the mixture control was for.

Dan
 
That's what his IA thought also but he said some hard deposits fell into the cylinder and he couldn't get them. He said it may be that but he has never seen something to this extent in over 20 plus years.

It definitely isn't a ploy to negotiate a lower price.

Hell I just want a reliable aircraft for myself and my family.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That looks like plain old lead fouling to me. The owner didn't know what the mixture control was for.

Dan
Click to expand...

And we are going to pull cylinders??

get the hell out of my hangar.
 
Tom-D said:
And we are going to pull cylinders??

get the hell out of my hangar.
Click to expand...


Ok then, do you have an explanation for the deposits? (Or are you just going to be an old curmedgeon and walk back into the hanger muttering to yourself?)<------note: parenthetical comment meant in jest! :)

Edit: Missed that Tom already offered and explanation of the deposits. What evidence can be used to support this claim?
 
JT, I'd just walk and chalk this one up to a seller who was not prepared. Thre are many biredes out there to take to your hangar. Choose again. This is just not worth the effort, unless the seller if forthcoming to YOUR satisfaction.

The bird might be okay, but how much are you going to put into HIS bird to find out?
 
So the assumption is we're trying to screw the seller? To that I call bull****!

I hire a very respected IA from our airport who works on many professional pilots aircraft. He is hired to give me his educated list of concerns with an aircraft. He has no cards in the game and could care less if I buy it. I'm naive to all the ways one can screw a seller in this game. My thought process doesn't even consider that!

I'm know your trying to help in some fashion and I appreciate it. However if the mechanic I choose to use doesn't feel comfortable Witt what he finds then I need to trust his judgement.

Hopefully the clearer pics tomorrow will shed some light on it.
 
Jthamilton said:
So the assumption is we're trying to screw the seller? To that I call bull****!

I hire a very respected IA from our airport who works on many professional pilots aircraft. He is hired to give me his educated list of concerns with an aircraft. He has no cards in the game and could care less if I buy it. I'm naive to all the ways one can screw a seller in this game. My thought process doesn't even consider that!

I'm know your trying to help in some fashion and I appreciate it. However if the mechanic I choose to use doesn't feel comfortable Witt what he finds then I need to trust his judgement.

Hopefully the clearer pics tomorrow will shed some light on it.
Click to expand...

If he is pulling cylinders because of what he is finding in the plugs, I'd get a new mechanic.

respected by who?
 
Now does every body know why I would ever allow my aircraft to be inspected in any other place but my hangar, and I supervise the inspection?

What is a seller going to do when his aircraft is torn down and at the mercy of the the people he doesn't know.
 
Someone gave me good advice about buying anything that you don't put a ring on: Never get emotionally attached before you swap the money for the title.
 
Tom-D said:
Now does every body know why I would ever allow my aircraft to be inspected in any other place but my hangar, and I supervise the inspection?

What is a seller going to do when his aircraft is torn down and at the mercy of the the people he doesn't know.
Click to expand...
I can see both sides of it. But yeah - how ****ed would the owner be if the IA that the potential buyer brought in to do the inspection ended up doing something that caused harm to the aircraft in some way, or even "finding" something that caused the value of the plane to conveniently be in question. I mean the buyer obviously trusts the IA he brought in, but the owner doesn't know him from Adam.
 
stagecoachco said:
Ok then, do you have an explanation for the deposits? (Or are you just going to be an old curmedgeon and walk back into the hanger muttering to yourself?)<------note: parenthetical comment meant in jest! :)

Edit: Missed that Tom already offered and explanation of the deposits. What evidence can be used to support this claim?
Click to expand...

I don't trouble shoot on line, it's too difficult see, taste, smell, and do the touchy feelly thing.

But as a seller I do not allow my aircraft to be torn down beyond a reasonable inspection criteria, pulling cylinders is not a common practice of a pre-buy inspection.

As a buyer when I find things I don't like, I simply walk.
 
Only a recommendation of what he told me. His mechanic is apparently borescoping the aircraft this week to investigate it further.

Personally I would like a definitive explanation to why so much crap is in the cylinders. If new plugs 30 hours ago then they look like crap. Maybe seller doesn't ever lean the machine, maybe that's an explanation...I don't know.

I was hoping to get another year out of the bird before replacing engine, is there something there that necessitates doing it sooner or should I walk. Those seem to be my choices it seems.

Bruce your right it may be best to walk! I just want a few answers before I do, nothing wrong with that is there?
 
Jthamilton said:
Bruce your right it may be best to walk! I just want a few answers before I do, nothing wrong with that is there?
Click to expand...
Nope, not a problem. But what you have is an unprepared seller. You don't want to pay to get him ready.
 
Did any one do a run up prior to the inspection?

it might be a good thing to know, did it work well before we say it is bad or not.

30 hours on new cylinders / plugs, and some body is saying they should be pulled.

some body better have a real good reason.
 
Tom-D said:
I don't trouble shoot on line, it's too difficult see, taste, smell, and do the touchy feelly thing.

But as a seller I do not allow my aircraft to be torn down beyond a reasonable inspection criteria, pulling cylinders is not a common practice of a pre-buy inspection.

As a buyer when I find things I don't like, I simply walk.
Click to expand...

Sorry about any confusion I might have implied here in a previous post. My IA only recommended that it would be a way to insure things were safe since he wasn't sure what the deposits are. He is in no way tearing down the sellers aircraft nor was it ever mentioned and like you I wouldn't want that! When I sold my cherokee six 8 years ago I would have had a stroke if someone told me they were going to pull some cylinders.
He showed the owner what he was talking about and let it go from there. He pointed out the AD that terminated in Dec. of 2009 that wasn't addressed so the seller could address with his mechanic.

I do trust this guy, I have had my experiences with a shady mechanic and I didn't stumble upon this guy, I sought him out to do the job.

I might have grasped the miscommunication earlier but I posted most of my comments from darn iPhone in-between when my 4th grade son was playing in his football scrimmage.
 
Last edited:
I would be willing to bet that the owner/seller was runing full rich thinking it was a good thing when breaking in new cylinders. and simply leaded the plugs
 
I think were just dealing with new plugs, original cylinders. Compression is above 76 on each cylinder. The aircraft has a clean log books, no other significant issues and I don't want to walk away from something prematurely.

I will get a couple pics on in the morning maybe that will help.
 
bbchien said:
Nope, not a problem. But what you have is an unprepared seller. You don't want to pay to get him ready.
Click to expand...

I don't believe we know enough to make that call.
 
Jthamilton said:
I think were just dealing with new plugs, original cylinders. Compression is above 76 on each cylinder. The aircraft has a clean log books, no other significant issues and I don't want to walk away from something prematurely.

I will get a couple pics on in the morning maybe that will help.
Click to expand...

I would tell my mechanic to clean the plugs and give it a run up, and a mag check.

if it does make the numbers it is supposed to then continue with the rest of the inspection.
 
If your IA doesn't know what lead buildup looks like then you need to run, run far away!
 
At least two top-notch engine shops in Tulsa, easy to get a second or third set of eyes on it before you throw in the towel.

hkyplr18 said:
If your IA doesn't know what lead buildup looks like then you need to run, run far away!
Click to expand...
 
BTW- Looking at the pictures, I have personally seen that much lead fouling quite a bit. Usually on training airplanes where students/instructors don't lean for taxi and they are usually at idle for extended periods. Clean the plugs.( It's going to take a vibrating plug cleaner and a pick to loosen the lead) Taxi with the mixture as lean as you can get it without the engine quitting.
 
hkyplr18 said:
BTW- Looking at the pictures, I have personally seen that much lead fouling quite a bit. Usually on training airplanes where students/instructors don't lean for taxi and they are usually at idle for extended periods. Clean the plugs.( It's going to take a vibrating plug cleaner and a pick to loosen the lead) Taxi with the mixture as lean as you can get it without the engine quitting.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:


Welcome to POA!
 
I would not be afraid of that engine because of some "unknown" substance on the end of the plugs... Unknown substances don't magically appear...
Without going into a lengthy diatribe, there are the metals making up the inside of the engine, oils, gaskets, permatex/shellacs, paint markers, gasoline, and antiseize on threads... Anything other than that came from the outside...

Do the bore scope for signs of detonation damage...
Send an oil sample to Blackstone with an explanation...
Fresh plugs and run the engine for 2 hours at normal cruise and inspect them and look in the cylinders one more time...
Make your purchase decision based on what you find - not in what was probably contaminated plugs...
 
Jthamilton said:
My IA wants to boroscope but was only in town today for inspection and doesn't have the scope with him. He really recommends that all the cylinders be pulled.

There is no mention of any particles on oil analysis. The poor owner was charged over 15k for an annual recently in March, for what we have no idea. To make the matter worse, my IA found an AD that hadn't been complied with which terminated dec 31st, 2009. The seller wasn't happy apparently when he learned the aircraft wasn't in compliance.

I'm going to call some shops locally and get firm numbers for rebuild versus FOH. Then consider renegotiating on our price. We are going to have the metal analyzed but I doubt thats going to change my mind.

I still new to this since it has been 8 years since I owned an aircraft but it seems like my options are few.
Click to expand...


So there are no other TR182's for sale? This is the only one in the country?

There are no other airplanes equally as nice or better? No airplanes with 400 hours on them and better records and a competent IA doing the inspections year after year?

The issue with this engine, even in the face of a planned rebuild- why are you working so hard to overlook the problems and do the deal? Don't bother asking us if you just want to do the deal . . ..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top