Pre purchase inspection engine issues

All this due diligence makes my ownership history feel like someone walking barefoot on the front yard of a crackhouse... :D
 
Tom-D said:
I would be willing to bet that the owner/seller was runing full rich thinking it was a good thing when breaking in new cylinders. and simply leaded the plugs
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You'd think he'd notice the 20+ GPH fuel flow. T182T is thirsty beyond reason when flown around rich enough to do that.
 
comanchepilot said:
So there are no other TR182's for sale? This is the only one in the country?

There are no other airplanes equally as nice or better? No airplanes with 400 hours on them and better records and a competent IA doing the inspections year after year?

The issue with this engine, even in the face of a planned rebuild- why are you working so hard to overlook the problems and do the deal? Don't bother asking us if you just want to do the deal . . ..
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Nice response, I actually appreciate the input from most! I am acknowledging everything and it has prompted me to open up my search further.

I'm just looking for some words of wisdom from those who have may have been down this road before, you know learn from other experiences? If its a waste of your time please don't respond!

I have been looking at other aircraft. The last TR182 had sat for 3 years so I passed on it. The first TR182 I located was sold while I was working on putting some things together. After calculating the costs of what it would take to bring most of the TR182's from their late 70's early 80's radios I started looking around for newer. The savings from insurance for fixed gear and the probable savings on maintenance made me realize I could look at something newer.

I feel like I have decent deal on the aircraft and will still be ahead if I had to replace an engine. I would have rebuilt engine and still have less in it than many for sale with 600-700 hour on their engine from what I have looked at and called on.

I have already sent some emails on further aircraft to expand my search some again.
 
Dr. O said:
I would not be afraid of that engine because of some "unknown" substance on the end of the plugs... Unknown substances don't magically appear...
Without going into a lengthy diatribe, there are the metals making up the inside of the engine, oils, gaskets, permatex/shellacs, paint markers, gasoline, and antiseize on threads... Anything other than that came from the outside...

Do the bore scope for signs of detonation damage...
Send an oil sample to Blackstone with an explanation...
Fresh plugs and run the engine for 2 hours at normal cruise and inspect them and look in the cylinders one more time...
Make your purchase decision based on what you find - not in what was probably contaminated plugs...
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Thanks, Thats pretty much what's happening. Yesterday was just our start. If its all good I will feel a lot more comfortable for sure.

My own curiosity here, someone running that rich all the time will create that much debris or particle in an engine cylinder? I intend on having my wife help me post something on this apple laptop as soon as she can.
 
Jthamilton said:
My own curiosity here, someone running that rich all the time will create that much debris or particle in an engine cylinder? I intend on having my wife help me post something on this apple laptop as soon as she can.
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Those plugs and cylinders can easily be fouled that much in that time. As another has said, we've seen such fouling in training airplanes. I've seen plugs like that in under 25 hours of circuit work and local flying.

The cylinders don't need to come off. The plugs need a good cleaning, and the stuff inside the sparkplug hole can be picked loose and pushed out with air blown into the top plug hole. After that, with sane and intelligent engine operation, it won't happen anymore unless you're a circuit-only pilot.

Dan
 
wabower said:
What are most mechanics looking for, other than a place to cash a check?
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Wait a minute, I'm just doing this work to have fun.

I looked a a Mirage very recently, fresh 1 hour annual. The seller was absolutely beside himself that I wanted to dump the oil and check the suction screen. I tell him that I do this on every Lycoming and that he wouldn't believe what I have found over the years. It's funny that my feeling or hope was that nothing would be found. Not so, a large number of big pieces of bearing material (pick-out) filled the end of the screen along with the usual large chunks of carbon. The screen was never looked at during the annual, but they did replace the oil filter. I installed a used engine mount on this aircraft back in April. During that time I showed the owner how the broken metal baffles were barely hanging in place. The baffles were still in the same condition.

I don't know how much longer it would run, but I have seen an engine after the crankshaft seized. I guess it's good for the buyer and me, but bad for the seller. What's another $51,000 for an engine overhaul.

Buyers look out.
 
Tom-D said:
one must remember, every engine shop is looking for work.
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Interestingly enough an engine shop last week told me that an engine was OK that a later talk with TCM and another IA left us unanimous that the engine shop was full of it.
 
kmead said:
Wait a minute, I'm just doing this work to have fun.

I looked a a Mirage very recently, fresh 1 hour annual. The seller was absolutely beside himself that I wanted to dump the oil and check the suction screen. I tell him that I do this on every Lycoming and that he wouldn't believe what I have found over the years. It's funny that my feeling or hope was that nothing would be found. Not so, a large number of big pieces of bearing material (pick-out) filled the end of the screen along with the usual large chunks of carbon. The screen was never looked at during the annual, but they did replace the oil filter. I installed a used engine mount on this aircraft back in April. During that time I showed the owner how the broken metal baffles were barely hanging in place. The baffles were still in the same condition.

I don't know how much longer it would run, but I have seen an engine after the crankshaft seized. I guess it's good for the buyer and me, but bad for the seller. What's another $51,000 for an engine overhaul.

Buyers look out.
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Pulled a screen full of rust off a recently purchased Cherokee last fall. It also had a quarter sized hole in the muffler.

Prepurchase done ~50 hrs before, by the sellers IA...
 
Dan Thomas said:
The cylinders don't need to come off. The plugs need a good cleaning, and the stuff inside the sparkplug hole can be picked loose and pushed out with air blown into the top plug hole. After that, with sane and intelligent engine operation, it won't happen anymore unless you're a circuit-only pilot.

Dan
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They make a tool for that, its called a thread chaser.
 
Ouch - I'm just trying to see if you are paying attention.

Really - I'm not being rude just a little sarcastic cause thats how your original post came across - meaning "I want this airplane really bad tell me its ok!"

I've bought three airplanes and passed on four. . . buying an airplane that does not end up being a money pit is a serious proposition.

I'm flying a Comanche 260C that had an $8000 annual before I even bought it and a $15000 annual 3 years later when an actual Comanche mechanic looked at it and only parts of the $8k one were prior bad AD's - at least the seller and I split the cost of the $8k one cause a) he really wanted to sell and b) was surprised at the condition of an airplane his mechanic had been signing off with sub-$1k annual for years and c) he'd already bought a Mirage.

I bought a cherry [looking] Turbo Viking in 2004. Lovely airplane - great paint - great strong engine - the probably was everything else - it was almost like a Tomcat - getting 5 hours maintenance for every hour it flew. I was actually kind of glad the insurance company got ti buy it back . . .

What you need to look at in any airplane that is the real money pit is the little stuff - the turbos that will run $8k to overhaul both along with OH the engine, the oil and fuel hose kit that'll run $1000 and $300 worth of scat and sceet and the labor to install it all, along with the prop and the hub and governor and the other stuff you will replace when you overhaul an engine. Its gonna be $50k which is why finding an airplane that does NOT need a new engine is the better solution.

Sure - it looks anti-seize compound - but any IA can tell you that right off - it looks like a lot of lead on the plugs. Are ALL of the plugs that way? And it got cylinders? Lycs don't eat cylinders unless they are run poorly. You can also check the run too rich idea by pulling a cylinder cap off and look at the valves - are they gunky too?

Does it have an engine analyzer with data in it? Download the data and see if it WAS running really rich. Then you'll know.
 
No harm, it's all good! Thanks for your help.

No engine analyzer, my IA said the owner runs TIT at 1400 all the time. Ran the fuel pump while starting it instead of only getting positive flow on fuel gauge. Guess would explain some richness?

My ia has some additional pics that he wasn't able to send so gonna see those Thursday and he will show me couple other things. He did mention all the cylinders had material but #6 was the worst. The plugs were not torqued appropriately and were easy to remove also.

Guess I will get all the evidence and make a decision from there.
 
To play the devils advocate, After all thats been said and done, whats it now going to take for you to feel good about buying this airplane? Maybe thats the deal you need to pitch.

Are you in the too good to be true zone?
 
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> You'd think he'd notice the 20+ GPH fuel flow.

Maybe not. I flew with a pilot/owner recently - 26 years in the same Skylane.
He'd never seen an engine monitor and was utterly petrified EVERY time the
mixture was less than full rich. The only exception was if he needed to "clear
the plugs" at run-up.

I tried to explain/teach, but he was not interested in learning something
newer/different.

>> pull a cylinder

IMHO; that's waaaay beyond "Inspection." I can understand bore-scoping,
but I would not pull a cylinder without the owner's approval.
 
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