"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery"

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Dave Krall CFII

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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery."

This was the astute and authoritative comment offered to us by a VFR pilot with a few hundred hours, as a primary flight student and I returned from a routine series of touch & goes in gusty, direct crosswinds in the mid 20 knot range, which was a good margin from the demonstrated envelope edge of our aircraft's crosswind capabilities.

What constructive comment might be offered in reply to him, structured as a witticism that he may be likely to remember?
 
I would argue it's more like practicing surgery before surgery.
 
I would argue it is merely the act of placing the correct control inputs in place at the correct time.

Pithy, but astonishingly true.
 
Tell that person, "Unless you're flying off a carrier (which is always turned into the wind), be prepared to have a lot of days when you can't fly where you want, many when can't even fly at all, and even some where you can't get home on a local flight. You will probably also have trouble finding an instructor willing to sign a flight review endorsement that way -- and I'm one who won't, so expect a long flight review every two years, too. If that's all OK with you, mighty fine. If not, you'd better stay proficient at crosswind landings."
 
If you bleed enough, the surgery will be less messy if not rendered entirely dispensable...
 
I would simply point out that nothing is so dangerous as ignorance in action. I would then ask for filming rights.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tell that person, "Unless you're flying off a carrier (which is always turned into the wind), be prepared to have a lot of days when you can't fly where you want, many when can't even fly at all, and even some where you can't get home on a local flight. You will probably also have trouble finding an instructor willing to sign a flight review endorsement that way -- and I'm one who won't, so expect a long flight review every two years, too. If that's all OK with you, mighty fine. If not, you'd better stay proficient at crosswind landings."
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The last carrier I saw had an angled deck for recovery operations so even that analogy doesn't work. Properly taught, crosswind operations should be absolutely no big deal to any pilot as long as the winds are within the aircraft's capabilities. A lot of pilots make way too much of an issue of them.
 
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wickedsprint said:
I would argue it's more like practicing surgery before surgery.
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I think he's the patient, not the surgeon.

Which makes it a truly silly comment. The patient is not an active participant in the surgery.

IMO, it's more like practicing stopping bleeding before surgery.

"Surgery is optional. Suturing is mandatory."
 
cirrusmx said:
gusty, crosswind landings are nothing, but pure fun.
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+10 Agree. Last Sat, I rented the club 172 to get going again with my IR but we had 17G25 right across RWY 10 at X51. So, of course, I had to do a few landings in that. I had the airplane to myself that day because both the pilot before me and the one after bailed because of wind. To each his own :yes:
 
MAKG1 said:
I think he's the patient, not the surgeon.

Which makes it a truly silly comment. The patient is not an active participant in the surgery.

IMO, it's more like practicing stopping bleeding before surgery.

"Surgery is optional. Suturing is mandatory."
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That also makes sense. You're right, my comment was assuming the commenter considered himself a surgeon.
 
This, to me, displays a mindset that would suggest this individual is woefully unaware of the realities of flight. I would be interested to know the age of the person making that statement as it seems to be a symptom of the culture of avoidance of challenge that is infecting our country.

If I had only trained in perfect weather I am quite confident that many of those who depended on me to execute my job when they needed me would be dead, and in all probability I would be as well. The only way to gain experience flying in adverse conditions is to fly in adverse conditions.
 
"Then you don't have nearly enough blood on you yet, for the surgery you'll need if you don't practice."
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery."

This was the astute and authoritative comment offered to us by a VFR pilot with a few hundred hours, as a primary flight student and I returned from a routine series of touch & goes in gusty, direct crosswinds in the mid 20 knot range, which was a good margin from the demonstrated envelope edge of our aircraft's crosswind capabilities.

What constructive comment might be offered in reply to him, structured as a witticism that he may be likely to remember?
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Hmmm look over at your student and say something along the lines of, "Please promise me you won't be like this idiot after you get your certificate."


Ok probably not professional.....
 
You practice procedures solo, so you're not using a rusty skill with passengers aboard.

It's more akin to surgeons learn procedures on cadavers so they aren't learning them on live people.
 
cirrusmx said:
gusty, crosswind landings are nothing, but pure fun.
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This thread reminds me of a flight I took with an instructor to renew my club currency in Archers. There was a strong and gusty crosswind, and I hadn't flown a low wing airplane, or any type of Cherokee, in about five years. Consequently, I really did not have a good feel for the landings, so I opted to spend the entire flight in the pattern. It wasn't pretty, but I didn't bend anything, and the instructor seemed impressed with how I did.

The crosswind was strong enough so that it was just over the line that separates fun from work!

For a reply to the statement quoted, it may not be witty, but I think the most appropriate response would be, "If that's true for you, then you need some dual in a good crosswind."
 
Dead Stick said:
The last carrier I saw had an angled deck for recovery operations so even that analogy doesn't work.
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They do have an angled deck, but normally the ship is turned with reference to the wind so the net wind is right down the angle. The bridge crew has (or had, in my day -- maybe it's computerized now) a whiz wheel like the wind side of an E-6B to figure the heading to which to turn the ship and what to order speed through the water to get the desired wind over deck right down the angle with the existing wind. Even in the worst case (dead calm, where the ship is making all its own wind) the most you have is an 11-degree crosswind of 28 knots or so, and that nets only a 5-knot crosswind component, which ain't much for aircraft with touchdown speeds of 110-145 knots.
 
To quote a phrase from a book I read titled "Landing Small Airplanes", (I think I got the title right)...

"You're either getting better at crosswind landings or you're getting worse".

Which, to me, meant you MUST continuously practice your crosswind landings. There's no "check in the box" for mastering crosswind landings...

I think the author frequents this board, but I'm not sure.
 
The whole point of thinking of it as "practicing"- even though you're actually doing it- is to choose to do such things, along with stall recoveries and power-off approaches, often enough so it becomes routine when you don't have a choice.
 
Ron Levy said:
The bridge crew has (or had, in my day -- maybe it's computerized now) a whiz wheel like the wind side of an E-6B to figure the heading to which to turn the ship and what to order speed through the water to get the desired wind over deck right down the angle with the existing wind.
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You give CVN OODs way too much credit. The might use a whiz wheel to get in the ballpark, but once they make the initial course change, all they do is hunt the wind adjusting course until the wind indicator says they are in the envelope.
 
Mason said:
If you can't fly the airplane to it's demonstrated limit, you are a passenger, not a pilot.
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I would submit that you are not even a passenger, but a victim of a potential statistic in the next Nall Report.

As for practicing crosswind landings, I would say to the commenter who made the comment is not doing crosswind landings is like buying a Porsche and never going into second gear.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You give CVN OODs way too much credit. The might use a whiz wheel to get in the ballpark, but once they make the initial course change, all they do is hunt the wind adjusting course until the wind indicator says they are in the envelope.
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I never served in a CVN, but when I was an OOD in CV-63, we did it just like I said. But perhaps things have changed -- when did you get your OOD qual in a carrier? In any event, in my 116 carrier landings aboard three different carriers (including one CVN), we never had a crosswind worth talking about.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
. I would be interested to know the age of the person making that statement as it seems to be a symptom of the culture of avoidance of challenge that is infecting our country.
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So true. We see "pilots" who want to let the GPS do all the navigating. They want a trike that will land itself; taildraggers are just too dangerous. They want single-lever FADEC that looks after all the engine stuff. They want stall- and spin-proof airplanes. They want an airplane that can land in a crab.

Too few want to work at actually accomplishing anything anymore. The culture of automation has turned us into spectators instead of masters.

Dan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Krall CFII
"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery."



alfadog said:
I don't even know what that means. :dunno:
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I took it to mean doing something risky with no real benefit to be gained, or something that makes no sense.

....unless one is bleeding into blood bank bags for your own post-surgical recovery transfusions....?

GD! CFIing can still be challenging.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Krall CFII
"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery."


I took it to mean doing something risky with no real benefit to be gained, or something that makes no sense.

....unless one is bleeding into blood bank bags for your own post-surgical recovery transfusions....?

GD! CFIing can still be challenging.
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I guess. Maybe we are trying too hard to make sense of it but it almost seems like you would be practicing something that is only a worst-case scenario. Sounds like someone who only plans on flying on calm days and staying in the local area where he can return quickly if winds start to develop. :rofl:

A comment like that might be appropriate if you were practicing true dead-stick landings, i.e. shutting the engine off completely to get a more realistic idea of gliding in with no power. I know some folks do that but that is getting a bit toward what he may be thinking.

But practicing crosswind landings? :no:
 
Ron Levy said:
I never served in a CVN, but when I was an OOD in CV-63, we did it just like I said. But perhaps things have changed -- when did you get your OOD qual in a carrier? In any event, in my 116 carrier landings aboard three different carriers (including one CVN), we never had a crosswind worth talking about.
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I believe you. Back in your day, both black and brown shoes took a lot more pride in their ability to navigate with precision. Nowadays, technology has made us lazy.

I am not a CVN OOD, but watched them do it while OOD on a destroyer doing plane guard 10 years ago. The carrier will announce their intended launch/recovery course and make the initial course change. Then they will spend the next 10 minutes or so making a series of smaller course corrections until they finally get it right. While I haven't been on the bridge of a CVN underway, a few friends who have would confirm this.

I am a qualified LHD and currently Navigator of one and it is the done the same way here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
The best answer I think is that a PVT ASEL should be able to perform to the level of his certificate at all times. Whether he subsequently chooses to do so or not is a different matter.

Being unable to perfrom to the level of your certificate is an invitaton to a 709 ride.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
"Practicing crosswind landings is like practicing bleeding before surgery."

This was the astute and authoritative comment offered to us by a VFR pilot with a few hundred hours, as a primary flight student and I returned from a routine series of touch & goes in gusty, direct crosswinds in the mid 20 knot range, which was a good margin from the demonstrated envelope edge of our aircraft's crosswind capabilities.

What constructive comment might be offered in reply to him, structured as a witticism that he may be likely to remember?
Click to expand...

Must never leave Seattle, where the winds are 340 all summer and 160 all winter.
 
"If you can't handle a little crosswind, there will be more days you are grounded, then days you can fly."

"Not all airports have crosswind runways, are you ready?"

"The closest airport with a runway into the wind is 50 miles away, good luck."
 
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